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Cannot cut supply in ports.

 
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Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/10/2021 5:13:14 PM   
WraithMagus

 

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Even if I have fleets that interdict every single supply that can reach a port and utterly surround a port, I cannot actually leave an enemy unit in anything less than basic supply. This makes any unit that garrisons a port extremely annoying to take down, especially in situations where the positioning of the port means you can only attack with two or even one land unit. Entrenched defenders are also nearly impossible to damage or inflict any meaningful loss of effectiveness with carriers or air strikes, so it makes taking out port defenders by far the most costly parts of some wars.

(Taking Port Said at the end of the North Africa campaign cost me more casualties to my armor units than the entire rest of the campaign combined because I could only attack with two units and can't cut supply. I had to change the advancement of my tanks to Heavy Armor to do it, as well.)

I understand why basic supply exists, but if I interdict literally all supply coming to a port, that port shouldn't give even basic supply to its units, just so that blockades can actually have some kind of meaning.




Besieging Oslo, my units were taking efficiency loss because of snow, but thanks to the odd way weather works in Norway, Oslo gets North Atlantic weather (and so do four other hexes in Norway), so the Germans are immune to the weather efficiency loss. This basically means the only thing I can do is keep attacking while my units have priority reinforcement to gradually whittle them down with attrition by pure lack of ability to reinforce their own side because they can never be out of supply, and I can't bring enough forces to overwhelm them.

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< Message edited by WraithMagus -- 2/10/2021 5:16:03 PM >
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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/10/2021 5:28:55 PM   
battlevonwar


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Think when I brought up the manual there is always basic port supply meaning that unit will live but function very poorly if fighting...(if it's not expending ammunition, medical supplies and has food and water it shouldn't just disappear or go to very low value) I think it means there are basics so if it's not fighting they have drinking water and food. Sneaking in a few fishing boats at night with the basics. But if you fight that unit it should diminish quickly!

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 2/10/2021 5:29:27 PM >

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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/10/2021 6:19:04 PM   
WraithMagus

 

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I know it's in the manual. The problem is, their effectiveness doesn't go down at all. In fact, because of their immunity to the snow, my own forces IN supply are depleting far faster than the units in basic supply, and it's extremely costly to try to throw my own units at theirs to try to force their effectiveness down.

Yes, realistically, some supplies could be smuggled in, but you could say that realistically, supplies could be smuggled in to an encircled land force, too.

This game needs to have a different rule where basic supply can fail a certain percentage of the time or where they still lose a fraction of a supply even while in "basic supply". Otherwise, ports are absurd bastions vastly more difficult to take than any other location, especially, again, when there are few hexes from which you can surround a port, as it severely limits your ability to amass forces against them, and naval units are basically useless.






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< Message edited by WraithMagus -- 2/10/2021 6:22:15 PM >

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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/10/2021 9:13:25 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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This is why you have air power to lower units and you KEEP attacking them at low odds in strong hold situations.

Say you entrenched enemy has 100% effectiveness and is getting his +3% a turn from basic supply because you are blocking that port.
You sitting nicely on supply 9 are getting 18% + 4% for an HQ = 22% or something like that.

You attack 3x at 1:1 odds. You lose 24% effectiveness.
He loses 12%.

Next turn he gains back 3%
You gain back 22%

Who lost more?

Now add in a bomber?
Now add in off shore support?

It's an assault vs a fortified city. You are lucky I don't allow stockpiling of supplies or you guys would be in trouble as the Japanese did in Rabaul and lasted until War's end as target practice for Allied planes

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/10/2021 10:56:23 PM   
WraithMagus

 

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Especially in the North Africa campaign, air units are completely useless. Something about them being at a lower scale seems to make them incapable of ever damaging an enemy, and so I eventually gave up ever using them offensively. The most common result was 3 lost air units to 0 lost targets, and that was when the enemy had no air support. Even beyond that, I lacked the oil to fly air units AND fight with tanks by the time I was at Port Said.

Further, as I previously explained, the weather for Norway means my effectiveness goes down every single turn due to the snow, while the enemy is recovering.

In that turn, when I attacked, I had 2:1 odds.

The next turn when I attacked after using supply trucks, it was 3:2 odds. If I wasn't using supply trucks, it would be 1:1 odds.

Clearly, the one losing more effectiveness is the defender.

On the whole, defense is far, far too strong in this game, and it is only masked by the inexplicably high rate of defenders choosing to retreat or break even when they are clearly winning a battle of attrition. A unit defending, especially along a river, will inflict 8 damage to an enemy while taking 0 damage two or three engagements in a row, then retreat in spite of never taking damage. If you can't get the retreat checks to occur, there is no chance for offense to ever work.




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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/11/2021 3:03:04 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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You are attacking across a river here. Read the AARs man

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/11/2021 12:00:07 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi Alvaro,

Just to be sure to understand, because the formula is (1- current effectiveness) x map supply recovery, would not the attackers in that example get (1-0,76) x 22 (so only about 5-6% recovery) assuming that they went from 100% to 76% after its attack. The 22% gain you mentioned would only apply, if I understand correctly, for unit starting at 0% effectiveness?

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 2/11/2021 1:13:50 PM >

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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/11/2021 4:15:22 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Yes it is based on what you lack. I gave raw numbers just for demonstration.

I'm saying if you read AARs you will see how the game plays. I try to mimic assaults on large urban areas as realistic as possible.

As an example.... Stalingrad cost the Russians 1,100,000 casualties/killed. It took them till Feb to finally convince starving soldiers to surrender.

If you mimicked this in warplan it would be a city surrounded by 6 infantry vs a German infantry getting air resupplied for a while while a level 2 entrenchment. Yea it will take a while to dislodge them.

Also naval groups don't just sit outside port 24 hours a day for 2 weeks. There are lots of ways to get supply to a port besides a liberty ship. Axis did it with barges in North Africa sailing at night. The Allies kept Tobruk in supply surrounded. How? Plenty of Axis air power there.

If you surround it and attack it getting 1:1 you will see how fast it escalates on the defender. I had to put in special code for the A.I. to realize this so it knows. Ok I have a stronghold situation I can't wait for 3:1. I need to pound the crap out of this location and bite the bullet for losses.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Nirosi)
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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/11/2021 4:52:14 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Ok all clear. Just wanted to make sure I understood the formula right.

Thanks!

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/17/2021 8:28:28 PM   
WraithMagus

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You are attacking across a river here. Read the AARs man


In the image, I'm defending across a river. (Playing Allies.) I'm demonstrating with that one how units retreat for seemingly no good reason, as they're obviously tearing the Germans a new one, but they choose to retreat, anyway.

As I said in that post, I am pointing out that defense is far too powerful in this game, giving much weaker units like the French infantry the ability to decimate attackers in return for no damage, and yet this game just seems to paper over it by making the defenders retreat in totally nonsensical scenarios, such as when they're destroying all attackers for no damage, yet decide to run away, anyway, because they apparently just decided to get really shy all of a sudden.

< Message edited by WraithMagus -- 2/17/2021 8:49:27 PM >

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RE: Cannot cut supply in ports. - 2/18/2021 12:58:50 PM   
stjeand


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Keep in mind you had armor in that attack. They add to units retreating as I suspect that mean they are overrunning the defender so they fall back.

So you were not happy that the defender retreated...then you say defenders are too powerful...which is it?
Yes they retreated and game the Germans drubbing.

Perhaps if you put them on hold position they would have held rather than falling back.


Keep in mind that in this game you may be the overall commander but each unit has its own command. They do not listen to everything you say...you just give them the basics. Hold or Defend. Unit was mostlikely on defend and when it saw two panzer corps smashing into it...the commander thought we are going to be overrun so fall back.

As for Norway above...
Those units are in a city. They have shelter and warmth. Your units are on a beach and in tents in the middle of winter.
Yes they probably have less food but definately are in better shape in the cold.

Air units is Africa do not seem great...especially if you are using the Italians. They appear to fly poorly folded paper airplanes.

I use them more on mission to just help the die roll in my favor. Rarely do they do much more.

(in reply to WraithMagus)
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