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OT: War on the Sea - 2/7/2021 8:44:59 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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http://killerfishgames.com/games/war-on-the-sea

It's out;

is good!!!
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RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/7/2021 10:07:01 PM   
Ambassador

 

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Advertising a game of another studio, is that allowed on the forum ?

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RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/8/2021 3:45:47 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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I'm not related in any way to the publishers.

And if it is for a good and just cause, why not, definitely yes.

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RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/8/2021 3:54:17 AM   
Ian R

 

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Looks like a world of warships wanna-be. "Real time combat" = a first person shooter GUI?

Can't say I'm interested but YMMV.

What is the "good and just" cause?

_____________________________

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- Cdr Spock


Ian R

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RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/8/2021 5:41:40 AM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Looks like a world of warships wanna-be. "Real time combat" = a first person shooter GUI?

Can't say I'm interested but YMMV.

What is the "good and just" cause?



It should be "more" than WoW....if ones judges from their game "Cold Waters" this is a modern sub sim. To get an impression:

Cold Waters: Epic Mod || Akula Career || Ep.1 - Red Storm Rising.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4O04XzxWU8

I could guess he means with the cause that this game developer is a small one who seems to make serious stuff again judged from the subsim linked above.. I was tempted to buy it.. but it still seems a bit "arcade" to me

You can also look uo this guy "sub brief" an ex sonar operator if interested in modern subs, he also has lets play from Deep Waters.

Victor III Sub Brief
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXzPtqf3zXo

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 5
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/8/2021 8:44:15 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Looks like a world of warships wanna-be. "Real time combat" = a first person shooter GUI?

Can't say I'm interested but YMMV.

What is the "good and just" cause?


This is much much more realistic than World of worship et similia, and it's not a simulator proper;

in it's actual format, it covers the whole Salomon Campaign in 1942 (+ a number of single naval battles such as the Sunda straits battle);it's scope is very similar to that of Uncommon Valor,with the difference of the Real Time element;

it could be defined as as a naval game at the tactical/operational scale;

in comparison, WITP (AE) is more of a grand strategy, with an operational focus, game (and without the real-time element, of course);


the "just cause" is the quality of wargaming and its realism; I can't think at any other game, with this focus and scale, that good and realistic;

Rule the Waves is similar, but with a narrower focus (more of a tactical naval game), and set in earlier historical time (thus precluding, for example, the air element from the game module);

Going to purchase it right now;

This is a very valid complement to WITP-AE;

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 6
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/8/2021 9:47:35 PM   
Sardaukar


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I have their Atlantic Fleet and Cold Waters.

Not ultra-realistic, but very good. Especially Cold Waters with Epic Mod.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 7
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/8/2021 11:35:14 PM   
adarbrauner

 

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Muuch better than Atlantic Fleet

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Post #: 8
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 8:10:11 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Looks like a successor to "Burning Steel - Great Naval Battles II" - that would be so cool!

Pretty graphics, no doubt. However, I have checked some reviews, unfortunately it seems that the AI is dumb as bread - the AI of the OPFOR as well as the AI supposed to help you controlling your own units. For example your planes or ships under enemy attack won't take evasive action or engage the enemy on their own, but only if the human player intervenes for each single plane / ship, making it a real-time game spent for the most time in pause mode to give orders. Plus carrier warfare seems very unrealistic, for example no ability to have search planes fan-out and a cool-down period between plane launches of several hours.

I'll keep it on my watchlist in the hope of improvements with patches.

_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 10:34:25 AM   
Ian R

 

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I find the "real time combat" off putting. Just not my thing. I'm more of an SPI guy.

Each to their own, though.


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- Cdr Spock


Ian R

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Post #: 10
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 11:29:03 AM   
Ambassador

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Looks like a world of warships wanna-be. "Real time combat" = a first person shooter GUI?

Can't say I'm interested but YMMV.

What is the "good and just" cause?



It should be "more" than WoW....if ones judges from their game "Cold Waters" this is a modern sub sim. To get an impression:

Cold Waters: Epic Mod || Akula Career || Ep.1 - Red Storm Rising.:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4O04XzxWU8

I could guess he means with the cause that this game developer is a small one who seems to make serious stuff again judged from the subsim linked above.. I was tempted to buy it.. but it still seems a bit "arcade" to me

You can also look uo this guy "sub brief" an ex sonar operator if interested in modern subs, he also has lets play from Deep Waters.

Victor III Sub Brief
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXzPtqf3zXo


I finally took the time to watch that Cold Waters video. Looks interesting, reminded me of the countless hours I’ve spent on 688 Attack Sub and SSN Seawolf, in the 90’s. I never really caught with the Silent Hunter series...

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 11
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 11:40:52 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


688 Attack Sub


SSI's 688 attack sub, where mastering the keyboard shortcuts was critical to beating the GUI.

Once you worked out the firing sequence in the training scenario - cruise missiles take out two targets at inception, then go deep and quiet and wait for a torpedo solution on the last Forrest Sherman - all of the other scenarios fell into place.

There was that one where you took your boat really deep into the trench, steered by the "TV camera", and ran at high speed out into the Atlantic. More like a grand prix game than naval warfare, but ... the enemy weren't looking down there, or maybe couldn't see.

In the end I got bored and sunk the Nimitz and as many of her escorts as possible before the game shut down in disbelief.

_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

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Post #: 12
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 4:53:04 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

I finally took the time to watch that Cold Waters video. Looks interesting, reminded me of the countless hours I’ve spent on 688 Attack Sub and SSN Seawolf, in the 90’s. I never really caught with the Silent Hunter series...


I still have severall of these games as originals mostly for Amiga. Also 688, their finest hour,Harpoon. I could not get into 688 iirc I was used to WW2 pacific sub warfare.. I also did not like the German subsims the Atlantic seemed so barren or boring compared to the pacific with these nice island with palms etc.

Ofc Silent Hunter or Service (which was before) were more or less action (fantasy) games too, as you could sink "half of the IJN" with your single sub if good and experienced after a while. Also I doubt highly the torpedo hits directly at DDs that coming towards you could be real in any way. In AE of course this is modelled much better you get not many torp hits on DD...

But judging from the 2 "lets play" on YT I watched this is the same for Cold Waters. Checked out an American and Soviet campaign one and both sink a bit too much ships without own sub suffer much.

But of course this must be so or the game would be pretty short your sub sunk at 3rd mission and yourself drowned

To a certain decree YES modern subs (from the 60ties onwards) are very deadly (as can be seen in Harpoon, when I sank half of a Soviet battlegroup with Kirow and Kiew, Slava etc. with 2 RN subs even older ones. BUT this was more or less luck cause the group wanted to invade Iceland and their path was pretty clear the subs seemed position good enough that they did not need full speed to catch up with the enemy fleet and could keep very silent on creep speed. One sub survived - and the rest of the Soviets were then taken out by air. With Kirov crippled and Slava sunk the LR AA missiles were reduced to 20% or so..

I believe also with a VictorIII,Akula or Charlie missile sub the same can be archieved (in Harpoon) vs. smaller US CV groups. Depends very much in position of your subs, catching enemy fleets will generate lots of noise - esp. the Soviet ones - and you shoudl be picked up if the enemy is not asleep.
The most annoying sub to fight seems to be the Alfa class, this can outrun your torpedoes even if dropped outright above it...

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/9/2021 5:07:20 PM >

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Post #: 13
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 7:02:32 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9162
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From: Finland/Israel
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Red Storm Rising for Commodore 64.

That was epic game indeed. Destroyed couple of joysticks in process...while I knew my Los Angeles would not turn faster to evade torpedo, I still tried



_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 14
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 7:28:55 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Red Storm Rising for Commodore 64.

That was epic game indeed. Destroyed couple of joysticks in process...while I knew my Los Angeles would not turn faster to evade torpedo, I still tried


I played that game!

quote:


Description of Red Storm Rising

Not MicroProse's finest hour, but a great game nonetheless. This game is definitely neither a "realistic" nor "deep" sub sim (compared with, say, 688 Attack Sub), but that's not what it is meant to be: this is a fun strategy game with lots of political intrigue, great atmosphere, and some adventure elements thrown in.

There were a vast number of campaign missions and, if repeated, they were always random in location as well as types of ships involved, a truly dynamic campaign. Subsim skippers are never satisfied with "canned" missions and this contributed to the success RSR enjoyed. Some missions include only submarines, others include only a surface convoy, others include a surface task force (with carriers), and others with both ships and subs. Helicopters with sonar dipping equipment and sonar buoys add much to the turmoil.

With the most challenging settings, events get so complex, and events occur so quickly, that having two people at the keyboard is a great help, and for beginners, almost a necessity (plus it is more fun). Trying to identify ships with signature analysis, running from incoming torpedoes, launching noise makers and decoys, dealing with several of your own wire-guided fish, and launching Harpoon and Tomahawk missiles makes for a very busy captain.

Overall, a great submarine simulator that's still being played today. Highly recommended!

Review By HOTUD

Description of Red Storm Rising

Not MicroProse's finest hour, but a great game nonetheless. This game is definitely neither a "realistic" nor "deep" sub sim (compared with, say, 688 Attack Sub), but that's not what it is meant to be: this is a fun strategy game with lots of political intrigue, great atmosphere, and some adventure elements thrown in.

There were a vast number of campaign missions and, if repeated, they were always random in location as well as types of ships involved, a truly dynamic campaign. Subsim skippers are never satisfied with "canned" missions and this contributed to the success RSR enjoyed. Some missions include only submarines, others include only a surface convoy, others include a surface task force (with carriers), and others with both ships and subs. Helicopters with sonar dipping equipment and sonar buoys add much to the turmoil.

With the most challenging settings, events get so complex, and events occur so quickly, that having two people at the keyboard is a great help, and for beginners, almost a necessity (plus it is more fun). Trying to identify ships with signature analysis, running from incoming torpedoes, launching noise makers and decoys, dealing with several of your own wire-guided fish, and launching Harpoon and Tomahawk missiles makes for a very busy captain.

Overall, a great submarine simulator that's still being played today. Highly recommended!

Review By HOTUD


https://www.myabandonware.com/game/red-storm-rising-qz

With download . . .

Improved LA class - pop up and launch missiles!

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Post #: 15
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 8:34:12 PM   
RhinoDad


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Sub Simulator '87 was fun and a bit buggy but on more difficult levels could be quite challenging. Just had to avoid much use of deck gun and AA fire as it was over strength. Could also get long at times cruising around waiting/looking for targets.

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Post #: 16
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 9:53:38 PM   
Sardaukar


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I also have Silent Hunter III and IV, both heavily modded.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


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Post #: 17
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/9/2021 10:38:51 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I also have Silent Hunter III and IV, both heavily modded.


So guess these are worthwhile from some videos I have seen.. is there also the pacific ? I have SH2 but found SH1 better in fact, but perhaps have not played SH2 much at all, so missed something.

Another good modern fleet game was Janes Fleet Command (Win95/98) and some more action like Strike Fleet (Amiga).

Edit, for WOTS there are already 2 lets play, here is one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv0gDklNpKg

Looks are fine for me- but if gaming is good enough needs to be seen..

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/9/2021 10:57:34 PM >

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Post #: 18
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/10/2021 12:28:18 AM   
RevRick


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From: Thomasville, GA
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Hmmmmmm. Reading all of these 'oulde' game titles brings back some memories of ages past - mine! One of my best friends and I have been playing since we found such things like 'Wooden Ships, Iron Men'board game, as well as several others in the early 70's, and have had the bug since. We enjoyed that, and the earlier board iterations of War in the Pacific - one of which required basically two pieces of plywood to lay the boards out, and all kinds of gyrations to make sure the "paw of cat rule" was still in play. Best would be to make sure the cat didn't change the fleet dispositions beyond the point of belief. Somewhere around here in a box are a number of iterations of those games. Had to pack them up when I went to seminary. Hope I can find them again!


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RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/10/2021 4:48:45 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

Looks like a successor to "Burning Steel - Great Naval Battles II" - that would be so cool!

Pretty graphics, no doubt. However, I have checked some reviews, unfortunately it seems that the AI is dumb as bread - the AI of the OPFOR as well as the AI supposed to help you controlling your own units. For example your planes or ships under enemy attack won't take evasive action or engage the enemy on their own, but only if the human player intervenes for each single plane / ship, making it a real-time game spent for the most time in pause mode to give orders. Plus carrier warfare seems very unrealistic, for example no ability to have search planes fan-out and a cool-down period between plane launches of several hours.

I'll keep it on my watchlist in the hope of improvements with patches.



I'm playing and checking it. Meanwhile, the AI is behaving in more than an acceptable manner in surface engagements.

BTW, have you ever found an AI that could not be outplayed?!?!?

People here mentioned for example Cold Waters and Silent hunter simulators: an experienced player could sink single handed half of the opposing enemy fleet. I see playtime videos in Silent Hunter where the skipper more than doubled Schepke's score list.

Or a single Oscar class bringing havoc in NATO composed fleets single handed, and still managing to find its escape route (more or less) unscathed for most (not all) of the missions.

The AI... let's talk about the AI in WITPAE?!?!

< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 2/10/2021 4:49:53 AM >

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Post #: 20
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/10/2021 5:21:02 AM   
prithupaul

 

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War on the Sea is absolutely dreadful. It is an insult to terms such as "wargame" or "simulator" which they put in their store page. A slap in the face of realism and historical accuracy.

It ignores basic fundamentals of warfare such as leadership, personnel, organization, command and control etc.

It is essentially a micromanagement game in the vein of primitive generic RTSs where the fleet commander directly controls a fleet of brainless clones, and points and fires guns manually. It is a game for children to look at pretty ships and planes go "boom boom".

Sorry it sounds harsh. Just frustrated with a slew of arcade formulaic clickfest games like this made by lazy unambitious devs masquerading as wargames and simulators. Especially saddening to see it mentioned in the forum for War in the Pacific which is at the other end of the spectrum. Developers like these should be strapped to a chair and forced to learn to play WitP and understand what a realistic in-depth wargame should be like.

(in reply to adarbrauner)
Post #: 21
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/10/2021 6:06:55 AM   
adarbrauner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: prithupaul

War on the Sea is absolutely dreadful. It is an insult to terms such as "wargame" or "simulator" which they put in their store page. A slap in the face of realism and historical accuracy.

It ignores basic fundamentals of warfare such as leadership, personnel, organization, command and control etc.

It is essentially a micromanagement game in the vein of primitive generic RTSs where the fleet commander directly controls a fleet of brainless clones, and points and fires guns manually. It is a game for children to look at pretty ships and planes go "boom boom".

Sorry it sounds harsh. Just frustrated with a slew of arcade formulaic clickfest games like this made by lazy unambitious devs masquerading as wargames and simulators. Especially saddening to see it mentioned in the forum for War in the Pacific which is at the other end of the spectrum. Developers like these should be strapped to a chair and forced to learn to play WitP and understand what a realistic in-depth wargame should be like.



Woow, hehehehe


"It ignores basic fundamentals of warfare such as leadership, personnel, organization, command and control etc."

This is true, it lacks them.

On the positive end, it gives me (and you) an extremely good understanding of naval tactics (+ a lot of fun in recreating real naval clashes in history). That's not low value item in my logbook.

And yes, i'd like very much to see the feature "captain injured/killed by shell splinters/blast on the command deck" (but hey, heck, this isn't present even in WITPAE);

moreover, the very complicated mechanics involved in order transmissions from ship to ship etc. (which, BTW are not much developed even in WitPAE) would result in a too..complicated game to be played.

Unless the devs find a way to happily abstract it, thing I'd crave to see one dayn in this game or another similar.





< Message edited by adarbrauner -- 2/10/2021 6:13:08 AM >

(in reply to prithupaul)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: War on the Sea - 2/10/2021 6:54:21 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9162
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I also have Silent Hunter III and IV, both heavily modded.


So guess these are worthwhile from some videos I have seen.. is there also the pacific ? I have SH2 but found SH1 better in fact, but perhaps have not played SH2 much at all, so missed something.

Another good modern fleet game was Janes Fleet Command (Win95/98) and some more action like Strike Fleet (Amiga).

Edit, for WOTS there are already 2 lets play, here is one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uv0gDklNpKg

Looks are fine for me- but if gaming is good enough needs to be seen..


There are so called "super mods" for both SH III (Atlantic) and SH IV (Pacific).

GWX (Grey Wolves Expansion), NYGM (Not Your GrandMother's Mod) for SH III and RFB (Real Fleet Boat), RSRD campaign mod (Run Silent Run Deep) and TMO (Trigger Maru Overhaul) for SH IV. They are all great.

Check them in www.subsim.com

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 23
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