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Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/7/2021 8:25:02 PM   
rmeckman

 

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I've started playing WitW again after a break and am confused about the railyard information that appears in the hex pop-up. When a hex contains a railyard, the pop-up includes a Rail: xxxxx : xxxxx line. The explanation of these numbers in section 5.2.1 of the manual is a little cryptic, but the first number appears to be railyard tonnage capacity remaining in the turn, whereas the second number is the capacity generated in the railyard factories during the last logistics phase. If a hex contains a single undamaged railyard factory, I would expect the pop-up to show Rail: 5000 : 5000 at the start of a turn (except at a national supply source). The first number can go down as the player moves units by rail, but the second number stays the same through the current turn.

Playing the Allies in the Torch to Tunisia scenario, I noticed that many of the Algerian railyards (Bone, Philippeville, Bougie, etc) show Rail 10000 : 5000 in their pop-ups on turn 1. They seem to start out with twice the railyard tonnage capacity that can be generated by their factories. I have not been able to find an explanation for these numbers in the manuals or forums. Am I misunderstanding the meaning of these rail numbers, was something changed in an update, or do I have a bad game configuration somewhere? The Axis railyards do not get this doubling of railyard capacity at the start, so the Allies appear to be getting a big logistics advantage.
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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/7/2021 8:58:01 PM   
loki100


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As far as I recall, the capacity xxxx(xxxx), the code is that the second number is the baseline (this can be reduced say by damage to the rail yard) and the first is what is still available

so I'd agree with your first para.

If the depot is in a port then it keys off the port size not the rail yard, so that might be the reason why those are a wee bit larger (don't have the game open to double check so not sure). Alternative is the scenario designed over-rode the normal rules for some reason to get the game moving?

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/8/2021 1:12:14 AM   
CJM

 

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According to the manual (5.2.1, p.31) "Rail: xxxx: xxxx: Displays in railyard hexes. The first number represents the amount of rail tonnage capacity remaining unused in the railyard. The second number reflects the damage adjusted amount of rail tonnage that can be moved by the railyards in the hex (set near the end of the logistics phase).

So in your example, the railyards in Tunisia they can generate 10k in rail tonnage capacity but accounting for damage only half is operational. That's my guess!!!

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/8/2021 6:46:28 PM   
rmeckman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

As far as I recall, the capacity xxxx(xxxx), the code is that the second number is the baseline (this can be reduced say by damage to the rail yard) and the first is what is still available

so I'd agree with your first para.

If the depot is in a port then it keys off the port size not the rail yard, so that might be the reason why those are a wee bit larger (don't have the game open to double check so not sure). Alternative is the scenario designed over-rode the normal rules for some reason to get the game moving?


Blida and Constantine both display Rail: 10000 : 5000 even though they are inland, so I don't think ports are the issue. It's possible that the railyard factories have a side-specific production multiplier like some other factories, although I have not seen it mentioned in any documentation. If the Algerian railyards really need to have 10k capacity to make the scenario work, why not just use two factories per railyard?

More generally, basic idea is to show Rail: RemRyC : InitRyC, where InitRyC is the initial railyard capacity that the phasing player has available each turn and RemRyC is what remains after the player has moved some units by rail. If so, then each turn should start with RemRyC = InitRyC, and RemRyC should never be greater than InitRyC. This is in fact what the railyards show (Rail 5000 : 5000) when Torch to Tunisia is loaded into the WitW Editor, so the change to 10000:5000 seems to happen during the first Allied logistics phase.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CJM

According to the manual (5.2.1, p.31) "Rail: xxxx: xxxx: Displays in railyard hexes. The first number represents the amount of rail tonnage capacity remaining unused in the railyard. The second number reflects the damage adjusted amount of rail tonnage that can be moved by the railyards in the hex (set near the end of the logistics phase).

So in your example, the railyards in Tunisia they can generate 10k in rail tonnage capacity but accounting for damage only half is operational. That's my guess!!!


None of the railyards I mentioned are damaged. With only one railyard factory each, they should be producing 5k per turn and not 10k. Safi is 41% damaged, with the pop-up showing Rail: 5900 : 2950. The second number is what you expect with 41% damage, but the first number---which is what the player can use in Rail Mode---is again double.

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/10/2021 7:14:09 PM   
rmeckman

 

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Can someone verify whether the railyard capacity issues I have come across in WitW v 1.02.59 are observed by other players? I still haven't ruled out the possibility my game installation is broken. After checking other scenarios, I have noticed that the railyard capacities for both sides are usually double what they should be after each side has gone through at least one logistics phase.

This is not just an obscure problem with the pop-up display, since the first number in the Rail xxxx:xxxx line is used by the game to move units and freight by rail. In other words, it is the basis for the game's rail logistics. Having twice as much rolling stock moving over the rail lines is no small issue. There is also evidence that WitE2 has inherited some of this logistics code from WitW. In the AAR at

Defending the Rodina - A Soviet WiTE2 AAR

there is one screen shot that shows Moscow having a railyard capacity of Rail 1800000 : 90000. The second number indicates that Moscow has 9 railyard factories (accounting for it being a National Supply Source). So the intention is that Moscow can move 90 thousand tons of freight/units per turn by rail, but it actually can move 1.8 million tons per turn, 20 times as much. Will this not affect the game if this issue is duplicated at other railyards on both sides? My suspicion is that the rail logistics code in WitW was altered during an update, and WitE2 started with some version of the new code.

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/11/2021 12:52:35 PM   
loki100


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don't read across to WiTE2, it can be misleading esp for the logistics and air war.

the game code was split about 3 years back and WiTE2 went on a seperate development track.

Moscow is right, it has a level 9 railyard (so notional cap of 90,000) with this increased as it an NSS to 200k of capacity per base unit per turn (it can lose this bonus under certain circumstances). Moscow has a level 9 railyard because it physically has, not because it is an NSS (the enhanced muliplier comes from that)

edit the point is that isn't really the problem you think it is. Almost all the Soviet supply is pushed out of Moscow so the local rails impose a huge SMP penalty

Roger

< Message edited by loki100 -- 2/11/2021 12:54:26 PM >


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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/12/2021 5:53:37 PM   
LIBERIA

 

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quote:

the hex
Hi, I see that in the pop-up that WA Rail Usage this number is equal or minus than the second number Rail 10000 : 5000

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/12/2021 8:52:43 PM   
rmeckman

 

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Thanks for confirming that others are seeing Rail: 10000 : 5000 at the small Algerian ports. Part of the enjoyment I get from playing WitW (and WitE1) is watching how the logistics constraints limit what can be done. So far, I've not been able to figure out where the railyard numbers come from. loki100's last response suggests the second number (5000) is a nominal capacity that accounts for railyard damage but not other modifiers. The first number (10000) is what the player actually gets to use for moving units by rail. With 10000 tons available, for example, I can move 1/78th BR Infantry division by rail out of Algiers on turn 1 and still have about 5700 tons of railyard capacity left in Algiers for other uses.

The second 5000 number does not really seem to be useful to players in most situations. Note also that Cairo is a National Supply Source (NSS) in Torch to Tunisia, and it shows Rail: 9989 : 10000 on my system prior to any unit movement. At this location the second number does account for the NSS multiplier. Ignoring the loss of 11 tons, Cairo's actual capacity of 9989 is no greater than the Algerian ports. Effectively, all railyards in the scenario are getting the NSS multiplier one way or another, since 10000 : 5000 and 10000 : 10000 represent the same capacity.

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/13/2021 7:27:10 PM   
rmeckman

 

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One other comment about Moscow having a railyard capacity of Rail 1800000 : 90000 in WiTE2. The paper at this link says that a WW2 Soviet military train on average had 60 cars and could carry 717 tons of freight (650 metric tons = 717 US tons). A railyard with a capacity of 5000 tons/week, which was the smallest railyard as originally designed in WiTW, could send out 7 of these 717-ton trains per week. So the smallest railyard considered in the game could load up and send out one train per day. This sounds entirely reasonable as the baseline for railyard size. Loading 60 cars with a limited crew is going to take some time.

Now consider Moscow with 9 railyard factories in WiTE2. If each factory can handle 10000 tons/week because Moscow is a NSS, then the nominal capacity of the whole railyard is 90000 tons/week, just as the second number in the pop-up shows. Regarding the "standard" 717-ton trains, this means that Moscow can send out a loaded train once every 80 minutes. Assuming that a major industrial center can send out loaded trains roughly once an hour again sounds pretty reasonable.

Moscow, however, appears to have an actual capacity of 1800000 tons/week in WiTE2. This translates to the railyard sending out a loaded 717-ton train every 4 minutes. This capacity does not seem reasonable for any single city. Where would all these loading trains be parked? In fact, the paper linked above at a later point estimates that the entire Soviet rail system was loading around 880 trains per day in WW2 for both military and economic traffic, which is one train every 1.6 minutes. This includes all the trains shipping freight west from the Ural factories and other industrial centers. There still seems to be questions about the railyard assumptions in WiTE2.

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/14/2021 6:10:50 AM   
cfulbright

 

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I'm confused. Is this about WitE2, or WitW?

Cary

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RE: Rail Capacity in Hex Popup - 2/14/2021 6:36:33 PM   
rmeckman

 

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It started as a WiTW issue, when I noticed possible inconsistencies in the railyard logistics. But I have also enjoyed following the WiTE2 forum to see how that game is coming along. At one point I came across a railyard logistics issue in WiTE2 that reminded me of what I encountered in WiTW. The games share code ancestry from about three years back. Currently, I am honestly perplexed about the railyard coding in both games. I could start a parallel thread on the WiTE2 forum, but I’m not particularly interested in stirring thing up. All I really wanted initially was a straightforward explanation of why the coded railyard behavior in WiTW differs from the documentation.

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