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Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance

 
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Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/7/2021 5:03:27 PM   
DWReese

 

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I've notice that in many/most scenarios the designers usually feel compelled to load up all of their CAP units with their HEAVY load out. (I've done it plenty of times.) That means that they usually have about threes times the amount of MAIN AA Missiles as they do when the planes are flying with the STANDARD amount. Looking at an F/A-18C, for example, this is the case as it has 6 AIM-120D AMRAAMs with the HEAVY loadout and only 2 with STANDARD. (Let's leave the Sidewinders out of the conversation for now since they are usually carrying the same amount regardless of the loadout.)

Now, if you elect to have the planes operate using a QUICK TURN-AROUND, then both planes will be ready in 90 minutes. (FYI....Without the Quick Turn-Around would be 3 hours.) I don't personally know anything about loading airplanes with ordinance, but it would seem to me that if you were placing 6 AMRAAMs on a plane instead of just 2, then it shouldn't take the exact same amount of time. It would seem that the time period for the aircraft getting 6 should be longer.

Again, I don't know anything about loading aircraft, so perhaps it isn't so much about attaching the weapons to pylons as it is about making sure that all of the electronics are in proper working order, so that might explain some things. If it is, however, just about the actual physical labor of attaching the weapons that takes the time, then perhaps this time should be somewhat lengthened to be more realistic? So, if 2 missiles take 90 minutes, then 4 missiles (or more) should take 120 minutes. In other words, perhaps it should be a little longer time period.

I bring this topic up because it always seems that scenarios have most of their planes loaded to the max, and then with a Quick Turn-Around they are back again, 90 minutes later, with a full load. I've tried playing many scenarios recently, ones that I am very familiar with, and I can't tell you how drastically things change if all of the CAP planes aren't always carrying the max amount of weapons, or they aren't flying again in 90 minutes with their max amount of weapons. It's much more challenging when you don't always have so many weapons at your disposal.

Thoughts?

Doug
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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/7/2021 5:34:27 PM   
BDukes

 

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This has been discussed a lot, but the times aren't derived on just the time it takes to load stuff but planning, pilot preparation, aircraft maintenance, etc.

That being said, I kinda agree that maybe changing loadouts with the same weapons maybe shouldn't take so long. It might be a PITA to code and/or make troubleshooting ready times later very complicated. There might be a Lua way to do this that could be added to a Lua library some scenario writers use.

This OSINT twitter..er tracks the loadouts decked Hornets and Growlers have when they enter/exit the Persian Gulf. The choices are interesting but also show why the CMO model is really good. Your loadout decisions play heavily into outcomes because of the time it may take to change them.

https://twitter.com/mhmiranusa/status/1348725242932424705

Mike


(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/7/2021 7:38:05 PM   
DWReese

 

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Mike,

Thanks for the info and the links.

I do find it interesting that all of planes filmed in those "training" missions each have relatively small amounts of weapons. Rarely have you seen a fully-loaded plane, except possibly in a promotional photo or video. You would think that the pilots would want to train with a full load, just to see how well the plane handles and maneuvers when it's loaded like that.

In any case, I do believe that the 90 minute turn around for the F/A-18 works fine, regardless of whether you are talking about 2 or 6 missiles. It's impossible to get that technical and still have a fun game to play.

I believe that the best way to address the issue of having "too many" missiles is to probably just limit the number of originally loaded. Unless it's a strike, planes probably don't carry a full load of missiles every time they take off as often as they do when playing our scenarios. It seems to me that in this case, less (missiles) may actually be more (fun). <G>

Doug

(in reply to BDukes)
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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/9/2021 6:23:17 PM   
RoryAndersonWS


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I do find it interesting that all of planes filmed in those "training" missions each have relatively small amounts of weapons. Rarely have you seen a fully-loaded plane, except possibly in a promotional photo or video. You would think that the pilots would want to train with a full load, just to see how well the plane handles and maneuvers when it's loaded like that.


In the same way aircraft accumulate flight time and have corresponding maintenence after x flight hours, missiles do too.

_____________________________


Command Developer, Warfare Sims.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/9/2021 6:40:52 PM   
thewood1

 

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I think people tend to think of weapons an just big lumps. But missiles are flight limited just like aircraft. They under going significant stress, especially on carriers. In peace time, and especially training, loads are limited for aircraft and weapon lifecycle longevity. But I would guess that in a shooting war with near-peer adversaries, you would see loadouts stretched to closer to operational limits.

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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/10/2021 4:15:46 AM   
AKar

 

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As a side note, live weapons are not used simply for load during flights such as ACM training. Captive training variants are used instead, and they indeed are not much more than big lumps, although captive training missiles simulating those with IR seekers do come with one if needed. Of course, limitations from maintenance and inspection requirements apply to training missiles as well (this also one reason why they are often flown without the fins attached as those come with flight time limitations as well).

This may not apply to training sorties flown in operational environment, such as from a deployed aircraft carrier. I don't know how they handle this stuff, but I'd guess they may have a limited stockpile of training munitions available.

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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/10/2021 9:51:55 AM   
DWReese

 

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I was thinking that dummy missiles (same shape, weight and size) could be used for training flights. It may provide the pilot with a better "feel" for how the plane will handle when it actually is fully loaded. I would think that it might be important. Then again, I'm not a pilot of a jet fighter, so maybe they don't "feel" any difference at all.

Doug

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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/10/2021 11:05:44 AM   
thewood1

 

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On deployments, aircraft do a lot more than training flights.

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RE: Quick Turnaround Times And Ordinance - 2/10/2021 5:05:07 PM   
c3k

 

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As well as all that, there can be issues with returning to the carrier with too much ordnance and fuel. The F14 would not fly with 6 Phoenix missiles because of that: too heavy to land (with normal fuel reserves).

(in reply to thewood1)
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