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Red army experience - 2/7/2021 2:44:44 PM   
ncc1701e


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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: online 		What is the max level for Soviet army experience? Is it 50% or 70%?
What is the max level for Soviet air force experience? Is it 40% or 50%?

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RE: Red army experience - 2/7/2021 2:51:12 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Status: offline 		50%, 50% through default values

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RE: Red army experience - 2/7/2021 3:09:03 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3974
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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: online 		Thanks I was not sure for the Soviet air force. Comparing campaigns:

Europe 1941 -> Soviet Air Force starts at 35% experience
Europe 1942 -> Soviet Air Force starts at 42% experience
Europe 1943 -> Soviet Air Force starts at 42% experience
Europe 1944 -> Soviet Air Force starts at 40% experience

Maybe in 1943, the experience should be around 46%.
Maybe in 1944, the experience should be around 50%.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 2/7/2021 3:49:06 PM >

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
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RE: Red army experience - 2/13/2021 9:26:14 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3974
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

What is the max level for Soviet army experience? Is it 50% or 70%?


Did you consider increasing the max experience level of Red army land units to 60% instead of 50%?
They now starts at 30% so the progress is quite slow.

USSR is suffering in 1941 and 1942 in my current test games.

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: Red army experience - 2/13/2021 10:27:46 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 7698
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Status: offline 		Soviet armies are fine. I have played enough games to know.

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RE: Red army experience - 2/14/2021 8:49:05 AM   
ncc1701e


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Status: online 		Mmmm - I don't know. Either I am suddenly a better player, either something has changed in Beta 10U9. I go in Soviet Union like butter.

Just to confirm, the only way for Soviet armies to acquire experience, this is to lose some steps, right?


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RE: Red army experience - 2/14/2021 2:36:49 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Mmmm - I don't know. Either I am suddenly a better player, either something has changed in Beta 10U9. I go in Soviet Union like butter.



I am trying to figure it out too - Soviets seem understrength compared to the Germans in both games I am playing in mid-1942 - but perhaps we aren't doing something correct. My tactics might not have kept up with the changes...yet. Also, I need to see what things look like in 1943. It feels different, but that might be a good thing - it might be more balanced. Need to get deeper into the existing games and then try adjustments.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 2/14/2021 2:38:14 PM >

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RE: Red army experience - 2/14/2021 3:38:07 PM   
ncc1701e


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Status: online 		Yes, historically in 1942, USSR was not that strong. We will need to check in 1943 if we both survive 1942 as Soviet...

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RE: Red army experience - 2/14/2021 3:41:50 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Just to confirm, the only way for Soviet armies to acquire experience, this is to lose some steps, right?



Alvaro, I think this is linked to experience. According to the manual:

quote:

Experience — How trained a unit is; the more a unit fights, the more its experience goes up; the lower the experience, the faster a unit gains experience.


So, if a unit is not fighting at all, it won't increase its experience. Is it correct?
See this army, still 30% experience and we are in 1942. I assume it has never fight.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 2/14/2021 3:42:40 PM >

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 9
RE: Red army experience - 2/14/2021 4:48:13 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Yes, historically in 1942, USSR was not that strong. We will need to check in 1943 if we both survive 1942 as Soviet...


Feeling like a big if...

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RE: Red army experience - 2/14/2021 7:00:38 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3974
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: online 		I have a theory. I still think the problem comes from the experience of the Red army land units.

I really wonder if this is not coming from the combination of

quote:

December 31st 2020 - Beta 10U2 - Happy New Year!!!

Change Soviet default experience lowered from 35% to 30%

AND

quote:

January 8th 2021 - Beta 10U3

Change casualty to kill level by 7% (means less kills more effectiveness loss)


My theory is that my Soviet units have taken less casualties during 1941. As such, their experience has not increased a lot.
We are in June 1942 and I have still units around 29%, 31% experience with better units around 47% now.

Soviet land unit base experience is now at 50%.


Really I would like a confirmation of the below question:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Just to confirm, the only way for Soviet armies to acquire experience, this is to lose some steps, right?






< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 2/14/2021 7:03:15 PM >

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to MorningDew)
Post #: 11
RE: Red army experience - 2/19/2021 4:45:43 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 3974
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: online 		Back in business, Alvaro, could you please answer this question? The only way for Soviet armies to acquire experience, this is to lose some steps, right?
I just would like to understand.

Thanks

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 12
RE: Red army experience - 2/19/2021 6:45:44 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Status: online 		There are 2 ways for an individual unit to gain experience. The first is combat experience. I am not sure if this requires that the unit actually sustains step losses, or if simply being in a battle gives it a chance of gaining experience. But I think it only requires the unit to be in a battle. At least this is my experience with U-Boats as they seem to gain experience from sinking MS and escorts even if they don't sustain any losses themselves. I also believe that there is only a chance of gaining experience from each battle and that it will only increase it's experience by a maximum of 1% per battle.

The second way is for a low experience unit to sustain casualties and then have those casualties replaced by more experienced replacements. So you say that you still have Russian units with 30% experience, but that your Russian National Experience level has reached 50%. If that is the case then if you have a 30% unit lose half of it's strength in battle than that half will be replaced with 50% experience replacements; so once it is fully replaced it should have 40% experience. At least that is my understanding. Of course, the opposite is the case if you have a high experience unit take casualties. This is why those German air units that begin the game with 70% experience slowly degrade down to lower experience as they take losses.

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RE: Red army experience - 2/19/2021 7:56:19 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Status: offline 		The only way for the Red Army to gain experience is to have combats.

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Post #: 14
RE: Red army experience - 2/20/2021 11:08:57 AM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

There are 2 ways for an individual unit to gain experience. The first is combat experience. I am not sure if this requires that the unit actually sustains step losses, or if simply being in a battle gives it a chance of gaining experience. But I think it only requires the unit to be in a battle. At least this is my experience with U-Boats as they seem to gain experience from sinking MS and escorts even if they don't sustain any losses themselves. I also believe that there is only a chance of gaining experience from each battle and that it will only increase it's experience by a maximum of 1% per battle.

The second way is for a low experience unit to sustain casualties and then have those casualties replaced by more experienced replacements. So you say that you still have Russian units with 30% experience, but that your Russian National Experience level has reached 50%. If that is the case then if you have a 30% unit lose half of it's strength in battle than that half will be replaced with 50% experience replacements; so once it is fully replaced it should have 40% experience. At least that is my understanding. Of course, the opposite is the case if you have a high experience unit take casualties. This is why those German air units that begin the game with 70% experience slowly degrade down to lower experience as they take losses.


This is how I understand it works also.

The paradox for this system as relates to the USSR in 1941, is that losing battles increasing XP more than winning them.

A unit gains direct combat experience very slowly, approx 1% a turn it seems to me (if they are fighting), whereas national default morale quickly rises to 50%.

This means that the best way to gain morale is not to WIN combats, but to LOSE steps.

For example, you have 2x 30 step mech unit at 20% XP.

The first one takes part in 3 successful attacks, losing no steps, and gains 3% XP= 23%

The second unit gets savaged in 3 unsuccessful defences, and loses 25 steps. However national morale is currently 50%, so the replacements it receives takes the unit's XP to 45% once it is rebuilt.

So the unit that performed worse, took the most losses, and received the most 'raw' recruits re-emerges as far more powerful force than the one which performed better and took no losses and needed no replacements.

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Post #: 15
RE: Red army experience - 2/20/2021 1:05:52 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		It is true in life you gain more experience by losing than winning.
When you win you only reinforce what you know.
When you lose you now now not to do that again.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

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Post #: 16
RE: Red army experience - 2/20/2021 11:10:57 PM   
squatter

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It is true in life you gain more experience by losing than winning.
When you win you only reinforce what you know.
When you lose you now now not to do that again.


Sage words indeed, but it's also true in life that you gain more experience by staying alive!


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Post #: 17
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