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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able to self-upgrade/refuel?

 
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RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 2/25/2021 12:48:06 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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Joined: 3/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

That would bea really good argument against it, if there weren't 3 other ways to skin that feline:

The only real limitation here is resources: The new component might need resources that you can not get by recycling the old one. There are 3 options to deal with that:
1. Have them go to the nearest base with those resources. Less of a track, but still one.
2. Call a freighter to deliver the missing resources, while flying towards it for a rendevous even in deep space. They already do this in DW1, if they somehow lack resources for a Station (design changed, there was not enough at the stop, etc.)
3. Have them pre-emptively store enough resource to do a full upgrade on the fly. The number of components is more static in DW2, so ship resource costs can not siginifcantly increase on the fly.
4. Their construction equipment can be used to make mining equipment. So why not let them act as a slow form of Miner, so they can go and extract the needed resources themself from stellar objects?
3+4 could even be combined - store in advance, but mine whatever you are missing


In my opinion the whole idea of upgrading itself is from a realistic perspective still absurd... ships just can't build ANYTHING... this is just an abstraction for game-play sake. You can magic it anyway you like that is up to your interpretation of the technology, for me it is not really possible.
In my opinion the ship need to go back to a station to prepare for each job for a reason, not just to get resources, this is a logical as anything else.

At the end of the day it does not matter... refit is part of the game core mechanics so it should stay that way or whatever way it will work in DW2 it will. I think it should matter more not less... but I'm a nerd for such details... ;)

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 2/25/2021 1:17:36 AM >

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 31
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/2/2021 10:07:48 PM   
U235


Posts: 97
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
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I believe obsolescence is part of the game. Let me provide an example. Imagine if the USS Constitution "Old Ironsides" were constantly upgraded and was the USA's most technically advance ship today. Would it not seem silly? In fact I'll take it one step further, perhaps there should be a point in DM2 where a ship is no longer a viable candidate for upgrade/refit. This would provide a whole new prospective to fleet planning in a realistic way. My first ship the USS America CV-66 was a great ship (may she rest in peace on the bottom of the Atlantic) but she was worn out from a hard life and skipped/abbreviated maintenance periods. They didn't make more, they made the nuclear powered Nimitz Class which will be around for many more years, but is also being augmented and eventually replaced by the Ford class. I'm not suggesting space vessels in DM2 disappear or become target drones for new, advanced weapons (although the latter might be interesting. Use an old ship as a test bed to test newer systems for an R&D bonus), but that if the player chooses to take an overly aged fleet to war, in might have consequences. Maybe maintenance costs go up with older ships after a period of time, or components fail. It might be too much to ask as it would require keeping track of a huge amount of data. Just think about it, more vessels are lost to the scrap yard or museums than to combat. In or out I'll take my 1000 year old ships into battle with a fresh coat of paint in DM2.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 32
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/3/2021 1:05:03 PM   
USSAmerica


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From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
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Hey, U235, as can be seen in my avatar photo, good old CV-66 was my first, and only ship as well. 89 - 93 with the air wing in AIMD. God Bless the USA!

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to U235)
Post #: 33
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/3/2021 3:15:50 PM   
U235


Posts: 97
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Hey, U235, as can be seen in my avatar photo, good old CV-66 was my first, and only ship as well. 89 - 93 with the air wing in AIMD. God Bless the USA!


I was air department ship’s crew 79-82 and 85-89. Transferred near the beginning of the 89 Med cruise in Rota, just after the explosion in the forward JP-5 pump room. Lost two fellow AB's in the fire. Ironically, I had just walked past the trunk hatch on the forward mess deck 5 minutes earlier. The explosion shot flames from the 8th deck up to the 03 level. Slept in the hanger bay for 3 days until the berthing was repair and power returned. They initially thought the hull was breached due to seawater leaking in, but it turned out to be a ruptured seawater main. Sadly, it wasn't uncommon to lose one or more crew members on deployments back then. Much improved now, but still dangerous environment. Later when onto tours with USS Eisenhower and USS Kearsarge. Got to preform duties as AV-8 Harrier launch officer on the latter which was a hoot. I hear those F-35's practically launch and land vertically by themselves.

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 34
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/3/2021 8:37:43 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3089
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

Let me provide an example. Imagine if the USS Constitution

Please explain wich part of "Construction and Science ships" you did not understand, that you bring military ships into it.

I am pissed that people on page 2 still do that ****.

I now wrote it clearly at the top of the OP:
I EXPLICITLY AND UNAMBIGIOUSLY SAID THAT THIS DOES NOT ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS. STOP TALKING ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS!

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 4/3/2021 8:38:35 PM >

(in reply to U235)
Post #: 35
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/5/2021 2:08:54 PM   
Omnius


Posts: 832
Joined: 6/22/2012
From: Salinas, CA
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Automatic upgrades are for lazy sissies! Why copy a garbage game like Stellaris, another pathetic piece of garbage from paradox. Upgrade at bases is the way to go!

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 36
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/6/2021 5:13:38 PM   
USSAmerica


Posts: 18668
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Chapel Hill, NC, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: U235


quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica

Hey, U235, as can be seen in my avatar photo, good old CV-66 was my first, and only ship as well. 89 - 93 with the air wing in AIMD. God Bless the USA!


I was air department ship’s crew 79-82 and 85-89. Transferred near the beginning of the 89 Med cruise in Rota, just after the explosion in the forward JP-5 pump room. Lost two fellow AB's in the fire. Ironically, I had just walked past the trunk hatch on the forward mess deck 5 minutes earlier. The explosion shot flames from the 8th deck up to the 03 level. Slept in the hanger bay for 3 days until the berthing was repair and power returned. They initially thought the hull was breached due to seawater leaking in, but it turned out to be a ruptured seawater main. Sadly, it wasn't uncommon to lose one or more crew members on deployments back then. Much improved now, but still dangerous environment. Later when onto tours with USS Eisenhower and USS Kearsarge. Got to preform duties as AV-8 Harrier launch officer on the latter which was a hoot. I hear those F-35's practically launch and land vertically by themselves.


If I remember correctly, that pump room explosion was the second day out. My very first time at sea and quite an eye opening experience! Being SeaOpDet in AIMD, my berthing was on the 01 level and my shop was on the 02 level, including the forward mezzanine in the hanger bay. We slept on the mezzanine for those couple of days.

It sounds like we were shipmates for about 2 weeks before Rota.

_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to U235)
Post #: 37
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/9/2021 8:33:10 PM   
U235


Posts: 97
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

Let me provide an example. Imagine if the USS Constitution

Please explain wich part of "Construction and Science ships" you did not understand, that you bring military ships into it.

I am pissed that people on page 2 still do that ****.

I now wrote it clearly at the top of the OP:
I EXPLICITLY AND UNAMBIGIOUSLY SAID THAT THIS DOES NOT ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS. STOP TALKING ABOUT MILITARY SHIPS!


Funny, I don't recall quoting you, so apparently I wasn't interested in your rules for a conversation. A ship is a ship when it comes to maintenance and upgrades, be it weapons or other systems. Do you not believe there were no "research ships" before modern days? Of course mostly military ships did the exploring/researching then. Since we are talking future fantasy, even the star-ship Enterprise, on it's 5 year mission to explore new worlds, had phasers and torpedoes. Apparently you don't know anything about vessels, military or not, and can't stand to hear from someone familiar with many kinds of ships. But I have a tissue for you if you need it. Hope your tantrum eased your suffering and foot stomping. Cheers.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 38
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/9/2021 8:38:18 PM   
U235


Posts: 97
Joined: 5/7/2000
From: Chesapeake, Virginia USA
Status: offline

quote:

It sounds like we were shipmates for about 2 weeks before Rota.


Apparently so. I passed through AIMD (the tunnel) many times and we probably passed each other from time to time. Small world. Cheers to you as well!

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 39
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/13/2021 7:41:02 AM   
Strategic Sage

 

Posts: 4
Joined: 4/13/2021
Status: offline
quote:

Imagine if the USS Constitution "Old Ironsides" were constantly upgraded and was the USA's most technically advance ship today. Would it not seem silly? In fact I'll take it one step further, perhaps there should be a point in DM2 where a ship is no longer a viable candidate for upgrade/refit. This would provide a whole new prospective to fleet planning in a realistic way.


It would do that. It would also break AI competitiveness further. Any feature that the AI can't use competently - not perfectly, just competently - is a poorly considered one IMO. A certain level of abstraction is necessary, and in a game as big and complex as DW is, heck any game but esp. in this case, there is limited processing available for AI routines. The more involved these systems are, the more ways there will be for players to exploit suboptimal AI. These types of features make sense for a game like Aurora that is essentially an AAR/story generator. In a fundamentally symmetrical 4X, they are a much bigger problem.

(in reply to U235)
Post #: 40
RE: Should Exploration and Construction ships be able t... - 4/23/2021 8:51:32 AM   
Canute0

 

Posts: 616
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: Germany
Status: offline
Back to the Topic.
Why do you differ between military and non-military ships, i don't see a difference.
One got bigger weapons and less cargo, other bigger cargo and smaller weapons but they are all the same.
And normaly military ships have a bigger potential to selfupgrade then other since they have more redunace system and spare parts to do improvements.
And it is a difference to upgrade a Warp Mk I into a Warp MK II then to replace it with a Warp Mk V into a ParaWarp Mk I.
So i vote against automatical upgrade's without any drydock/repair facility.

Maybe you can add some item rewards from explorations which you could build into a ships. That is something a chief engineer could maybe do at space.


(in reply to Strategic Sage)
Post #: 41
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