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Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/3/2021 6:05:15 PM   
Zemke


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I am looking at getting a WW I Operational game, and the choices seem pretty slim. Looks like "Guns of August" released in 07, "Commander, The Great War" released in 2012, or "To End All Wars" released in 14. I do not prefer the HOI or Strategic Command versions, as both are too simplistic for my tastes. I am looking for a WitP:AE or WITE type depth/experience.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/3/2021 6:10:01 PM   
MrsWargamer


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TOAW IV is known to encompass a great many time periods and might be worth looking into.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/3/2021 6:31:06 PM   
geforth


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Yeah, Operational Art of War was also my first thought. And if you have enough from ww1, you can play the other 200scenarios. really a great game. ^^

< Message edited by geforth -- 2/3/2021 6:32:04 PM >

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/3/2021 7:32:14 PM   
Zemke


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Thanks, but I have and spent many hours on TOAW. I was looking for something like the aforementioned WitP:AE or WitE type games with a built-in logistics model of some detail.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/3/2021 8:13:13 PM   
gamer78

 

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WW1 is not popular and not good enough about toys (equipment) for a Gary Grigsby's game. JTS France'14 is great for operational. Some good logistics adequate for that engine.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/3/2021 11:00:25 PM   
operating


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

Thanks, but I have and spent many hours on TOAW. I was looking for something like the aforementioned WitP:AE or WitE type games with a built-in logistics model of some detail.

You might try this CTGW mod Potzblitz (which by the way is supported): http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=77884

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Post #: 6
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 12:31:13 AM   
rommel222

 

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Greetings Zemke,
Look into John Tiller Software WW I Campaign titles: France '14, East Prussia '14 & Serbia '14 for in depth, detailed, operational supply and battles.
https://www.johntillersoftware.com/WWICampaigns.html

France '14 review:
http://armchairgeneral.com/john-tillers-france-14-pc-game-review.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le5ht-58EPM

East Prussia '14 review:
https://panzerde.blogspot.com/2014/08/gumbinnen-august-20-1914-review-of-east.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEOERK5tCLg

Serbia '14 review:
https://www.awargamersneedfulthings.co.uk/2020/06/serbia-14-by-john-tiller-software.html


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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 5:42:48 AM   
RFalvo69


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There is AGEOD's "To End All Wars" on Steam, but I never tried it:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/312360/To_End_All_Wars/

Before this one AGEOD published "World War One: La Grande Guerre 14-18", a conversion of the tabletop game. It was a troubled project and I think it has been discontinued.
http://www.ageod-forum.com/viewforum.php?f=217

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 7:46:16 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

..

Before this one AGEOD published "World War One: La Grande Guerre 14-18", a conversion of the tabletop game. It was a troubled project and I think it has been discontinued.
http://www.ageod-forum.com/viewforum.php?f=217


The Gold Edition sorted out some of the worst issues and there is a small bit of modding still done (on the AGEOD forums). But, its an utterly frustrating game to play but somewhere in there is probably the definitive operational/strategic WW1 game. Its the only I've played that captures the relative fluidity of strategic options and the near impossibility of actually delivering on them.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 5:07:38 PM   
Randomizer


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I would say that WW1 Gold best represents the salient features of the Great War but as Loki100 noted, it can be very frustrating since it was pushed out of the door with many errors and issues. Some of the features are simple but elegant; the U-Boat War, army leadership, national will and morale and the transition from manoeuvre doctrine to firepower doctrine (trench warfare) to combined arms doctrine are all handled really well compared to it's rivals suggested above.

To End All Wars is an example of forcing a game system into a situation that its designers never intended for it and the AGE 2.0 engine is a very poor fit for the subject. Some certainly do like it but it does not model the major characteristics of the conflict in any reasonable ways.

Commander The Great War also comes up short and allows all sorts of strategies that could not have been available to the real life belligerents. Think WW2 without tanks and the nod to The Great War is mostly in including irrelevant "flavour" units like railroad guns and a Belgian armoured car squadron in a game of Corps and Armies.

Guns of August is a Frank Hunter design and he usually places a premium on historicity but the scale is more Grand Strategic than Operational than the others and the naval game is weak.

I wrote bunch of Mods for WW1 Gold fixing errors of omission, commission and balance that can be found over on the AGEOD forum for the game. That said, it was like $12.00 CAD during the Winter Sale and is almost certainly NOT worth paying full price for so you probably missed a window of opportunity to try the limited selection available.

-C

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 6:59:34 PM   
altipueri

 

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There are about 15 scenarios on WW1 in The Operational Art of War. Tannenberg is one of the tutorials.

I like Ageod's WW1 Gold - but only play the small scenarios. You may find a copy online in one of the Ageod strategy packs (perhaps not in the US).

If you haven't tried Ageod's game system try one of the early small ones like Wars in America where the number of Units is small - I have their WW1 "To End All Wars" but it's too big for me.

Or just read "Goodbye To All That"

(in reply to Randomizer)
Post #: 11
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 8:11:01 PM   
MrsWargamer


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My only problem with WW1 at the operational level mainly I suppose, is that war was hell for a GREAT big reason.

And that reason makes wargaming a major problem. There was precious little maneuvering, mostly just slaughter, years and years of slaughter.

Not what I call fun.

_____________________________

Wargame, 05% of the time.
Play with Barbies 05% of the time.
Play with Legos 10% of the time.
Build models 20% of the time
Shopping 60% of the time.
Exlains why I buy em more than I play em.

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 12
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 8:32:59 PM   
wodin


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WW1 Gold for me.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 8:47:25 PM   
Simulacra53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

My only problem with WW1 at the operational level mainly I suppose, is that war was hell for a GREAT big reason.

And that reason makes wargaming a major problem. There was precious little maneuvering, mostly just slaughter, years and years of slaughter.

Not what I call fun.



Hmm.

Depends on the period and front.
WW1 is more than static front warfare, even on Western Front.

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Post #: 14
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 9:30:34 PM   
Randomizer


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quote:

There was precious little manoeuvring, mostly just slaughter, years and years of slaughter.

True but it is not mindless slaughter and that's a feature, not a bug. One of the problems with Commander:The Great War and To End All Wars is that the hex scale is so big that unit densities impose an essentially artificial stalemate and while this may apply to a certain extent on the Western Front and Italy, it is less reasonable in the East, the Balkans, Africa and Mesopotamia and Palestine if the Ottoman Empire is with the Central Powers. In those extraneous theatres, mobility remained a major factor throughout the conflict and WW1G although they are unlikely to be decisive in and of themselves, they can have a nasty impact on National Will (NW). Another is that they are adoptions of game engines that were never intended to recreate the First World War and in general, the fit is pretty sloppy.

Barring an unlikely (but possible) victory in 1914, in WW1G everything is tied to National Will and politics, finite resources that must be carefully managed if you are to avoid collapse. In one of my games, England's NW took a big hit in 1917 from a failed Grand Offensive, a special type of mandatory theatre attack where success can improve NW, even at the cost of heavy casualties but failure can be debilitating. In this case Britain's cumulative NM loss due to Irish rebellion, worker's strikes, casualties and combat failure were compounded by an exceptionally effective unrestricted U-Boat roll that plunged the country into revolution. The U-Boat threat affects NW and the economy and can only be countered by building and deploying escorts and advancing technology. Eventually a Communist Britain left the war in the January 1918 turn. This is a rather unlikely outcome even in WW1G but one that is plausible and probably not available in the other titles. Recall that KGV refused asylum to Cousin Niki because of fear of what the increasingly socialist English workers might do if he should shelter the autocratic ex-Tsar.

WW1G is a computer port-over of an incredibly complex board game and uses its own unique engine, not the AGEOD 2.0 engine used by To End All Wars, which is a remarkably poor fit for the subject. In WW1G each nation, major and minor have their own unique NW, economy and manpower resources whereas these are allocated by faction in TEAW. To be clear there are still has many issues in WW1G but in my opinion, none of the other titles even come close to reproducing the strategic considerations of the conflict as well as this game does, which befit its board game pedigree.

-C

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Post #: 15
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 10:16:38 PM   
berto


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Players unfamiliar with Commander: The Great War's PotzBlitz Mod should look into it.

https://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=218&t=77884

It goes a long way towards addressing many of the problems in the base game.

(The mod designer is now working on a stand-alone Russian Civil War scenario.)

...

About static, trench warfare: Even on the Western Front, there was plenty of maneuver warfare in both 1914 and 1918. Plenty of movement in the other theaters too. Overall, the First World War is much less boring than often supposed. Still grim and depressing as heck, though.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/4/2021 10:34:21 PM   
RFalvo69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrsWargamer

My only problem with WW1 at the operational level mainly I suppose, is that war was hell for a GREAT big reason.

And that reason makes wargaming a major problem. There was precious little maneuvering, mostly just slaughter, years and years of slaughter.

Not what I call fun.


IIRC, there is a ruleset for the sweeping maneuvers of 1914, a completely different one once trench warfare ensues, and even a third one when the war regains mobility in 1917. I'm quoting the tabletop version, here, but from what I gathered the PC game is a close conversion.

Anyway, I dig up an interesting AAR written for this forum back in the day: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2566993

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"Oh dad... so you were a God-damned cook?"

(My 10 years old daughter after watching "The Hunt for Red October")

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Post #: 17
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/5/2021 12:08:03 AM   
wodin


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From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

quote:

There was precious little manoeuvring, mostly just slaughter, years and years of slaughter.

True but it is not mindless slaughter and that's a feature, not a bug. One of the problems with Commander:The Great War and To End All Wars is that the hex scale is so big that unit densities impose an essentially artificial stalemate and while this may apply to a certain extent on the Western Front and Italy, it is less reasonable in the East, the Balkans, Africa and Mesopotamia and Palestine if the Ottoman Empire is with the Central Powers. In those extraneous theatres, mobility remained a major factor throughout the conflict and WW1G although they are unlikely to be decisive in and of themselves, they can have a nasty impact on National Will (NW). Another is that they are adoptions of game engines that were never intended to recreate the First World War and in general, the fit is pretty sloppy.

Barring an unlikely (but possible) victory in 1914, in WW1G everything is tied to National Will and politics, finite resources that must be carefully managed if you are to avoid collapse. In one of my games, England's NW took a big hit in 1917 from a failed Grand Offensive, a special type of mandatory theatre attack where success can improve NW, even at the cost of heavy casualties but failure can be debilitating. In this case Britain's cumulative NM loss due to Irish rebellion, worker's strikes, casualties and combat failure were compounded by an exceptionally effective unrestricted U-Boat roll that plunged the country into revolution. The U-Boat threat affects NW and the economy and can only be countered by building and deploying escorts and advancing technology. Eventually a Communist Britain left the war in the January 1918 turn. This is a rather unlikely outcome even in WW1G but one that is plausible and probably not available in the other titles. Recall that KGV refused asylum to Cousin Niki because of fear of what the increasingly socialist English workers might do if he should shelter the autocratic ex-Tsar.

WW1G is a computer port-over of an incredibly complex board game and uses its own unique engine, not the AGEOD 2.0 engine used by To End All Wars, which is a remarkably poor fit for the subject. In WW1G each nation, major and minor have their own unique NW, economy and manpower resources whereas these are allocated by faction in TEAW. To be clear there are still has many issues in WW1G but in my opinion, none of the other titles even come close to reproducing the strategic considerations of the conflict as well as this game does, which befit its board game pedigree.

-C



Fully concur!!

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/5/2021 5:15:12 PM   
Zemke


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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

There are about 15 scenarios on WW1 in The Operational Art of War. Tannenberg is one of the tutorials.

I like Ageod's WW1 Gold - but only play the small scenarios. You may find a copy online in one of the Ageod strategy packs (perhaps not in the US).

If you haven't tried Ageod's game system try one of the early small ones like Wars in America where the number of Units is small - I have their WW1 "To End All Wars" but it's too big for me.

Or just read "Goodbye To All That"


Perfect recommendation, exactly what I was asking for. As for the John Tiller series, I have several of the WW II versions and am looking more towards the entire War, so the above post is perfect.

I am thinking the Ageod's WW I Gold may be the ticket, sounds about like what I am wanting. The reason is I have developed a great interest in WW I of late, and nothing is better than a good war game to learn more about it.

Thanks so much for your time and effort in this above recommendation.

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/5/2021 7:14:27 PM   
Randomizer


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Useful and comparatively recent one-volume Great War books:

Cataclysm: The First World War as Political Tragedy by David Stevenson.

A World Undone: The Story of the Great War by G.J. Meyer

Pandora's Box: A History of the First World War by Jorn Leonhard

-C

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/5/2021 8:16:58 PM   
Aurelian

 

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You can also, if you're into to Vassal, get http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Category:SPW_(Schroeder_Publishing_%26_Wargames)

You can find the rules somewhere on the Decision Games site.

(I have the actual game series and the module. I live in hope that someone will do for this what was done for WiF)

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/5/2021 8:24:26 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke


quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

There are about 15 scenarios on WW1 in The Operational Art of War. Tannenberg is one of the tutorials.

I like Ageod's WW1 Gold - but only play the small scenarios. You may find a copy online in one of the Ageod strategy packs (perhaps not in the US).

If you haven't tried Ageod's game system try one of the early small ones like Wars in America where the number of Units is small - I have their WW1 "To End All Wars" but it's too big for me.

Or just read "Goodbye To All That"


Perfect recommendation, exactly what I was asking for. As for the John Tiller series, I have several of the WW II versions and am looking more towards the entire War, so the above post is perfect.

I am thinking the Ageod's WW I Gold may be the ticket, sounds about like what I am wanting. The reason is I have developed a great interest in WW I of late, and nothing is better than a good war game to learn more about it.

Thanks so much for your time and effort in this above recommendation.


Or this version: https://www.greenmangaming.com/games/world-war-one-centennial-edition/

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RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/5/2021 8:40:31 PM   
gamer78

 

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User 'Random' in Ageod forum had mods for WW1 Gold and it was compatible with World War 1 Centennial Edition. Which I've played many years back. But I think approving a design and playability 2 seperate things. I think JTS France'14, Ageod's to End all Wars and Strategic Command WW1 are the best for solo and pbem for computer games about WW1.

< Message edited by gamer78 -- 2/5/2021 8:42:59 PM >

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Post #: 23
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/7/2021 10:01:07 PM   
Zemke


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From: Oklahoma
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I bought World War One Gold

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Post #: 24
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/8/2021 6:12:48 AM   
Randomizer


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Good Luck, here's hoping that you enjoy the game as much as I, despite its issues.

Here are some links for the AGEOD Forum that may help:

Developer Patch 1.07Q link here: Patch Q New Link Scroll down to the third to last post for the link.

User mods correcting the campaign scenarios here: Random's Naval Mods for WW1 Gold They're easy to use and fix all manner of issues.

-C

< Message edited by Randomizer -- 2/8/2021 6:14:06 AM >

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Post #: 25
RE: Anyone Recommend the Best WW I Operational Game - 2/8/2021 9:36:34 AM   
wodin


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Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Randomizer

Good Luck, here's hoping that you enjoy the game as much as I, despite its issues.

Here are some links for the AGEOD Forum that may help:

Developer Patch 1.07Q link here: Patch Q New Link Scroll down to the third to last post for the link.

User mods correcting the campaign scenarios here: Random's Naval Mods for WW1 Gold They're easy to use and fix all manner of issues.

-C


Me too.

I also recommend Pandoras Box by J Leonhard book. Very, very indepth.


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