Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Help - High Altitude Sweeps

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Help - High Altitude Sweeps Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 4:12:16 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15175
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
I recently took on a game and the HR in place was no HL sweeps beyond 2nd Altitude band

I have to confess I dont actually know what that means - I only have ever had two other games where HL sweeps were the norm as its normally something my opponents and I avoid (most of my opponents are in the quasi historical camp simulators rather than gamers) in all of the 30+ PBEM's I have played I don't think I have ever seen a sweep above 20k by anyone other than one of my current games and my shortlived game v Nemo and in my current game we have a simple no sweeps above 25k limit that is easy to manage.

What does this HR actually mean - I agreed to it and will honour it but feeling a bit thick because I am unclear what I agreed to.

My opponent swept me at 30k feet and I responded by setting my Hurricanes to max altitude and retaliated even though I think its stupid to have them operating at 25k feet never mind 34k - so I know I broke the HR (unintentionally) I want to abide with it but I dont know what it is.

Help need to understand what it is ?
Post #: 1
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 4:22:10 PM   
Runnersan

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline
You got ingame info about Maneuver. This maneuverability is broken down into intervals by altitude. Two best means that max altitude that this plane can go is the second heighest maneuver number.

Something like on my screenshot below.



< Message edited by runnersan -- 2/3/2021 4:33:54 PM >

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 2
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 4:25:07 PM   
Runnersan

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline
Better screenshot

Max altitude for oscar is band with second best Maneuver rating - 15K




For Hurricane it will be 20k



< Message edited by runnersan -- 2/3/2021 4:32:57 PM >

(in reply to Runnersan)
Post #: 3
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 4:28:27 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15175
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell

(in reply to Runnersan)
Post #: 4
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 4:39:21 PM   
Oddball67

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/13/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell


i think too, i've seen some AAR where the HR is something like "no more than 20k in 42, 25k in 43" and so on, which seems way easier to use

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 5
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 4:40:49 PM   
pontiouspilot


Posts: 1120
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline
Here is my take on this. If you check the specs for a Hurricane 1 you will see a list of altitudes at bottom of specs. For Hurricane 1 the 2nd highest band is 21K-31K with a concomitant maneuver of 18. You will note that the different altitude bands often have differing maneuver factors associated therewith. I have always taken this house rule to mean the Hurricane 1 wouldn't operate above the highest altitude of that 2nd band ie. 31K.

I will be fascinated to hear whether I have been misinterpreting this HR. You will get some heated debate on the use and effectiveness of this as a HR. I will say it's a pain in arse!!

**while drafting my response I already see other answers

< Message edited by pontiouspilot -- 2/3/2021 4:43:02 PM >

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 6
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 4:41:18 PM   
Runnersan

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell


You are right. I use:

Max fighter altitude 20K in 41-42, 25K in 43, 35K onwards

It's better for Japanese player because second best for P-38 is 31K, and this plane is real killer for single Japnese fighter squadron. And it is easier to remember and manage.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 7
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 5:22:11 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15175
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline
OK well thanks I think I understand I suspect I will break the HR via incompetence as its too micro intensive but its what I agreed to so I guess I have to live with it

(in reply to Runnersan)
Post #: 8
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 5:37:54 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline
Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 9
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 5:41:08 PM   
Oddball67

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/13/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.


i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 10
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 5:48:06 PM   
Runnersan

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/11/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oddball67


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.


i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?


I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

(in reply to Oddball67)
Post #: 11
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/3/2021 6:26:48 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: runnersan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oddball67


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.


i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?


I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

A base worth having a CAP is worth having multiple squadrons on CAP.

A multi-layered CAP is indeed the best tool.

(in reply to Runnersan)
Post #: 12
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/4/2021 12:02:12 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3332
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: runnersan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oddball67


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.


i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?


I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

A base worth having a CAP is worth having multiple squadrons on CAP.

A multi-layered CAP is indeed the best tool.


To be pedantic, no CAP is perhaps the best tool.

A lone sweep in itself, regardless of altitude, against a base with no CAP does precisely nothing.

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 13
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/4/2021 12:12:24 AM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: runnersan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oddball67


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador

Useless rule IMVHO, there are ways to limit the effectiveness of very high altitude sweeps.


i have staged CAP in mind, anything else ?


I know only this one. And it is very hard to use when You have single detachment in base.

Superiority in numbers is very helpful, but you also have to send more then one unit to defend base to gain this.

A base worth having a CAP is worth having multiple squadrons on CAP.

A multi-layered CAP is indeed the best tool.


To be pedantic, no CAP is perhaps the best tool.

A lone sweep in itself, regardless of altitude, against a base with no CAP does precisely nothing.

Not entirely false, if the goal is to avoid losses. But the goal of a sweep is to clean the airspace, whether by shooting down the opposition or making it hide away, and thus paving the way for a bombardment. No CAP is thus conceding the battlefield. So, YMMV depending on your goal and situation.

But a well timed low-flying CAP trap, followed by a quick naval bombardment (or aerial) on the following night on their home base (provided it’s identified and they have no railway to evacuate) will bag a lot of aircrafts, and make the opponent think twice. I learned this the hard way with a bunch of P-38’s...

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 14
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/4/2021 1:46:30 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7474
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oddball67


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Thanks oh bugger thats micro hell


i think too, i've seen some AAR where the HR is something like "no more than 20k in 42, 25k in 43" and so on, which seems way easier to use


See if your opponent would go for something like this, so much easier to manage. I could never agree to what's been set up. Truly, micro hell.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Oddball67)
Post #: 15
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/4/2021 2:03:43 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 25921
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
I am no such house rule. The altitudes for sweeps are, in effect, a metaphor anyway.

At some stages of the game and situations, one players does better with sweeps. at other stages and in other situations, the other player does better. In all cases where it is possible, layered CAP helps a great deal.

_____________________________


(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 16
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/4/2021 2:59:28 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5511
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
I agree with the no house rule for sweep altitude. As stated, sometimes the Allies have the upper hand, other times Japan does. There are also counters, low CAP, low layered CAP, and just layered CAP can all work. You just need
to work at it. A bit like they had to in RL.

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 17
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/4/2021 5:50:47 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 6173
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
Just scrap the HR.

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 18
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/5/2021 2:05:40 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7261
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
As Japan, I find the ideal altitude layers are lower, 7K,9K,12K for example. And I usually put cannon fodder at the bottom (like Oscar), and killers in the next two layers (Frank or George or Tojo, depending on date). Is that what other's do?

As Allies, though, I am not sure what's best. Same type of setup? Allied planes are generally not as good at low altitudes, but maybe in WITP-AE a lower-layered CAP is still preferable? It's also complicated by nationality (I.E., maybe the RAF has a different plan than USAAF or USMC)

_____________________________


(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 19
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/5/2021 4:17:54 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline
Sadly, I play with this HR in my current PBEM.

I hate it.

Also, I do believe it makes very little difference. The Japanese player stays low. I sweep high. It doesn't really matter if I sweep at 550.000.000ft or 20.000ft since he's lower in any case.


I am sweeping at 42.000ft with P-47D25 (only TRACOM pilots in them, btw) and I obtain a 2:1 on very lucky days against A6M8/OSCAR-IV/FRANK-R.



Take the entire "altitude thing" as something symbolic. I know as well that they didn't fight at 40.000ft, but just read it as "those guys were higher than the other ones" and that's it.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

As Japan, I find the ideal altitude layers are lower, 7K,9K,12K for example. And I usually put cannon fodder at the bottom (like Oscar), and killers in the next two layers (Frank or George or Tojo, depending on date). Is that what other's do?

As Allies, though, I am not sure what's best. Same type of setup? Allied planes are generally not as good at low altitudes, but maybe in WITP-AE a lower-layered CAP is still preferable? It's also complicated by nationality (I.E., maybe the RAF has a different plan than USAAF or USMC)



Someone who knows better than me the in-and-outs of the game will chime in, hopefully.

Still. Tojo in the upper layer is a no-go because it has a great climb rate.

I prefer (and my opponent masterfully does as well) to employ the best climbers and most agile fighters at the bottom (say 6k), then a layer of your second-best fighter (say the final George) and on top of that at 9k the layer with your best pilots and planes (generally, Frank-Rs).


As allied you have different setups. I found very tricky the low CAP provided by Spitfire VIIIs and Spitfire Vs. They operate in the same manner as the Japanese against strato-P47, just, they do it against Frank-Rs
The Spits have a good speed and an outstanding MVR at low altitudes, creating big issues for the strato-Franks.

It also depends of what's the reason behind the sweep. If it's just to kill some enemy planes, I prefer to keep a very high CAP with american airframes. Under this HR, the Hellcats can go very high (higher than Franks) and you have plentiful. P-47s are a no-brainer, but using them in high altitude CAPs is quite a waste in my opininon.

P40s and P39s do quite well low. Surprisingly well, I would say. I can trade blow against strato-Franks without issues with worse pilots on my side. It goes maybe 1.5 : 1 for the Japanese.




Hope it helped!

_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 20
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/5/2021 7:12:10 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17645
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
The game tries to model the historic air battles where the US aircraft were heavier and higher-powered so they flew high, dived on the enemy aircraft and used the built-up speed to get away or climb quickly back up. Trying to dogfight with a Zero at low level was a losing proposition so they just didn't stick around to do it. Boom and Zoom.

But lighter aircraft with bigger wing surfaces like the Spits and Hurris were built for dogfighting. USN fighters went more with the rugged construction and heavy punch idea since escorting bombers meant letting the enemy fighters start the attack first. After the bomber load on carriers was reduced in favor of more fighters, the USN fighters also preferred the Boom and Zoom tactics.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 21
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/6/2021 2:31:20 AM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2062
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
Btw. I just read some reports (story) of 77th Sentai (IJA). At one point the army yielded to the navy to send more forces south. The army was not fond of this theater at all. Noted was that the airfields like Wewak etc. were quite terrible. The runway was bad, no real protection for planes (revetments named ?), AA guns were rare and not the best, also AEW was not good, meaning warning times were bad. This was one of the main reasons the airfoces from both navy and army were crushed on the fields (!).

However if enough planes got in the air, in this case 77th was flying Oscar IIb and met even superior planes like P47s (which were still not so numerous) the rates were not 4:1 or higher for the Americans but often enough only 2:1 or better!! Note this was late 43 early 44 I believe and some units like 77th had some luck before with lower losses, so also their pilots were still good.

It is suspected that the flying circus technics of the Japanese still worked to a decree in this timeframe - meaning in dogfights Oscars would trump P47 or P38. This went away with more exp and more planes on the Allied side plus ofc huge losses on the IJ side (and lack of fuel, spare parts, technicians at forward bases)

In reality if the pilots are good and aware to spot diving planes (like the higher flying P38/47) they had good changes to evade and fight back. Not like in the game dive + boom (not always but too often!).

I play 1 PBM still and we deleted the sweep rules a while ago. I noted the Allies fly sweep in 95% of cases at max alt (39 for P38 and 41 of P47) also the distance is often quite high. I DO NOT think the game does give enough penalty for long distance VH alt flights.

Even if no enemy is encountered this should be more dangerous (= be more ops, I noted perhaps 1 P38 as ops in 3 turns of these flights with perhaps 111-120 planes flying 2 turns in a row). On my side I noted a bit simmilar things with the George (1st model with 40k alt), I had not many ops at all for such flights.

However it seems ops losses for Japanese are generally higher for some reason even IF flying normal range and always using rest%. I mean eg. search and LR cap missions, not sweeps even if these missions are flown at lower alt. In theory sweeps so high should be more dangerous to accidents, fatigue etc.

A bit OT, but I lost pilot and plane to short transfer from Rabaul to Manus. Good weather, good fields. I also lost 2 high exp losses to crash lands in India recently they were flying normal alt LR cap. It says it is monsun, but the bases in question were not bad weather it said (? also the bases have 8+5 fields and not damaged so why do they crash). Allies seem not to lose these planes if he flies in the same weather/theater. I btw. tend to my pilots and do not send high fat out, but seems it is useless to care if they crash themselves without fights - also I play Allies too and less exp pilots can do longer range transfers without killing themselves (rant off)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 2/6/2021 3:51:48 AM >

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 22
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/6/2021 5:32:22 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14842
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
This high level sweep stuff is an artifact of players and not of the game. I have no idea what you're doing way up there. You can't even see the fighters down below to go after them. You're doing it because the fighters below know you're up there because they have radar telling them so. So you're coming in at 40k. The guys below know you're not coming to bomb anything. Why would they come up? The base defender shouldn't be playing your game but make you play theirs. Keep your defending fighters low, real low. Make them come down where your maneuver advantage comes in to play. If the damage bombing raids can do is limited, don't bother with CAP at all. If you can't afford attrition don't just hand it to the other guy. The high altitude sweeps make sense in conjunction with same day bombing raids or when such raids are or should be imminent. The defender should stay low anyway and come up to meet the bombers too. And don't run your CAP at such a high percentage, just enough to cost the bombers. You put up 100% you're laying it all out there for the sweepers. Stop it.

_____________________________

Currently fighting for the Emperor against AW1Steve. As of 8/21 it is 8/45.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 23
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/8/2021 4:50:59 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline
I think strato-sweeps are not that terrible if the Japanese player has enoguh sang froid to keep its CAPs at low altitude and fight only whenever necessary.

Broadly speaking, I found that the idea of "send them always at the maximum altitude" is not such an easy win for the allies. Now that I am on the allied side, I can and routinely do max-alt sweeps, but the great bulk of my sweeps come at lower altitude.

IIRC, Alfred confirmed somewhere that pilotes fighting at 75% (or 80%, I found two different references to the percentage) of their planes' ceiling incurr in additional fatigue. Just to make an example.
Moreover, I routinely have better results in going in at mid-altitudes even with late-war fighters. My understanding is that the first waves of sweepers arrive first and accomplish the following: A) degrade the CAP; B) make the CAP fly higher and higher; C) do some kills.
There are planes suited to do this.

Then the big boys with P47s come in from stratosphere and do a good damage to the enemy.

Most important element is to avoid sweeping UNDER the CAP.


Sadly, we play with the "2nd Best MVR HR" (game started ages ago and my opponent of the time was adamantine in willing this HR). It wouldn't make much of a difference playing without it in any case.


It's not a big micro-management hell. Not at all. At certain point you know perfectly who can go at which altitude. Moreover, most of the fighters are either 31k ft maximum or 20k ft maximum, with the latter being prevalent in the first 6 months of the game. There are few families which are fairly tight: P39s go generally at 15k ft maximum, P47s go whenever you want and so on.
P40s have few differences among them and so do many English planes such as the Hurricanes, but it's not a big deal.


EDIT: I refer to Scen01, stock game, PDU=on

< Message edited by ITAKLinus -- 2/8/2021 5:35:24 PM >


_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 24
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/8/2021 5:19:50 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7261
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline
Good feedback...playing Japan, I've found the N1K1 to be far superior as a sweeper to the Ki-84a. In fact, against a good CAP setup the Frank shouldn't be sweeping from what I can tell. The J2M is even worse. I have the Ki-100 in 1943, and it does better than the Frank set to high-altitude.

That's just my 2 yen, I'm sure experience differs with versions and HR

_____________________________


(in reply to ITAKLinus)
Post #: 25
RE: Help - High Altitude Sweeps - 2/8/2021 5:34:44 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 630
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Good feedback...playing Japan, I've found the N1K1 to be far superior as a sweeper to the Ki-84a. In fact, against a good CAP setup the Frank shouldn't be sweeping from what I can tell. The J2M is even worse. I have the Ki-100 in 1943, and it does better than the Frank set to high-altitude.

That's just my 2 yen, I'm sure experience differs with versions and HR



Yeah, I edited my last post: Scen01, stock, PDU=on.



Sweeps with Franks can be nasty if you are caught with a wrong CAP setup. Same goes with Oscar-IVs, as funny as it might look like (and it shouldn't).

Generally, I got the nastiest sweeps by Oscar-IVs on poor CAP setups, go figure. I suppose it's due to the fact that the Oscars go in, dive on my poorly placed CAP and then avoid the dive, working roughly the same as the Spitfire VIIIs, by far the best sweepers at hand in early '44.

I've never played the Tony line because I don't believe in it, though. I just know that by early '44 I see that a CAP with Oscar-IV + Frank-R + George-3 (final model) is by far the best defensive setup available against strato-sweeps and sweeps in general.
Tojos and Jacks are hampered by the fact they are very good climbers and, in the case of Tojos, they do have a very poor armament. You need those 20mm cannons if you want to down late-war allied fighters in good numbers.


To be honest, even with the "2nd Best MVR Band HR", sweeps are quite variegated until now (april 1944). Sometimes, I take it in the chin. Some other times, the Japanese suffer horrendous losses.
Last turn my opponent swept with Oscars and Nicks. Shredded them with a CAP of Corsair/Hellcat/P47/HurricaneIIa. Few turns before, he swept with Oscars and tore my cap apart. Same goes with Franks.
When you run low-altitude CAPs, how you mix it and the quality of your pilots is very relevant. I think it's a game in the game and it makes the entire stratosweep problem a "non-problem".




I've obtained decent results even with very outdated P40s against Frank-Rs piloted by experten brutally diving on them. Well, maybe "good" is a big word... Let's say someone survived and I inflicted way more casualties than expected

_____________________________

Francesco

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 26
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Help - High Altitude Sweeps Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.332