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RE: A truly terrible game - 2/2/2021 11:38:51 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64

That said. Try checkers. Might be more your speed. Oh by the way, I bought WPO and WITP before AE and I joined the forum just after I bought AE. I had been reading the forum for years and with AE I needed some help and support. I asked all the wrong questions and sometimes a brief spanking. You just joined the forum and broke the rules. Your first few posts should of been questions. Not an attack on something a lot of people love. Think about that for a while....GP

I'm thinking more tic-tac-toe ....

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 31
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 1:52:18 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5362
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline
Have to say I can't understand why anyone would not like this game EXCEPT that there are some very slow periods while one organizes the logistics to support future action. Having finally advanced to late 1944 as Allied such things become very important (since one has so many of everything). The Japanese advance had to have been a shoestring affair right from the get-go only possible because there was such a dearth of decently trained/adequate forces to oppose them. (BTW I have no idea why his forces won't engage especially in the early going (as Allied) other than "operator error").

(I only play as Allied - being an old f@rt "the blush went off the (production) rose" a long time ago.)

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 32
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 2:03:17 AM   
RhinoDad


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
It is a great game but it takes a certain kind of person to like it. Guess that is why there are all different types of games and various levels of detail and historical feel. Then again maybe trying to get a rise from people is his game.

_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 33
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 2:08:46 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7373
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: USSAmerica


quote:

ORIGINAL: ubwart

This has got to be one of the most tedious things and god-awful games I have ever played. It has all of the detail and much more of pacwar and none of the charm. PW had all kinds of tool to let you see where the battles were and so on. Not this dog, you have one battle report thing with 800 reports to wade through after each turn to find your one carrier battle.

Then take into account that carriers are generally not going to attack the other side even with reaction range of 6. No they would rather sit in their base and wait for the enemy to move away and attack your force with a much larger attack than the computer ever seems to mount for my carriers.

I paid 20 or so for it and it is not worth $1. No support no updates and Matrix still wants 79 for this old dog. I would rather pull my teeth via my ass than play this again. PW was about 50 times what this game is worth.
Someone please explain to me how my 3 carriers consistently get their asses kicked by one opfor carrier.



Here's a quarter. Call someone who cares.


+1


_____________________________

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In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to USSAmerica)
Post #: 34
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 2:12:02 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3163
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ubwart
... then I see some kind of political points needed to assign a leader, where does it show my pool? No fing ware. I loved the old games for their complexity but this is just complexity for complexity's sake. .


Actually it tells you how many points you have in the pool, at the top of the window where you finalise selection of the new leader.

Reading your posts suggests that what you were hoping for, but did not get, was a modernised windows version of the old Pacwar, same time/map/unit scale etc, but with (some of) the bells and whistles of AE added in. There has been some work done on the old Pacwar; you might want to check out the latest version. Rich Dionne is working on improving the AI.








_____________________________

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Ian R

(in reply to ubwart)
Post #: 35
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 5:37:39 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17277
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Will_L


quote:

ORIGINAL: ubwart
Then take into account that carriers are generally not going to attack the other side even with reaction range of 6. No they would rather sit in their base and wait for the enemy to move away and attack your force with a much larger attack than the computer ever seems to mount for my carriers.


Your CV TF won't react unless you set it with a reaction range to either a destination hex with remain on station orders or give it patrol orders with up to three patrol points. If you sit the TF in port with a reaction range it'll simply sit in port. (Please correct me if I got any of this wrong guys.) Maybe you should have checked the forums for advice before you took the plunge into the deep end off the learning cliff, there is plenty to be found.

quote:

I would rather pull my teeth via my ass than play this again.

Please do so, I really wanna see you pull this off.

Reaction setting is a thing with a Surface Combat TF set to patrol an area. But CV reaction is a different kind of reaction that has nothing to do with the reaction range you set in the TF screen. Basically, if there is a high enough detection of the enemy and high enough commander aggression, the TF will react towards the enemy and if he detects you at the same time he might react towards you.

There are a lot of complex calculations going on behind the scenes taking into account weather, aircraft ranges, your escorting fighter numbers and who knows what else. I suspect the OP put all of his fighters on CAP with a high range dispersing it to nothing. His bombers likely didn't try to fly because there was no fighter escort. Hard to tell because his post did not include any details.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Will_L)
Post #: 36
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 5:43:58 AM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9233
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ubwart

You gotta use your brain. Son I was one of the original players of the old PW game and even that SW game was better than this. What does this game offer? Every man, unit of clothing and roll of TP in theatre. No easy way to see combat reports, no real reason why my carriers never launch, then I see some kind of political points needed to assign a leader, where does it show my pool? No fing ware. I loved the old games for their complexity but this is just complexity for complexity's sake. with nothing to help make managing a pacific war easier, you really want to scroll through 40 pages of **** to see the one combat report that is important to you? Go right ahead.


Well, you're coming of pretty dense. I guess this wasn't an early April Fool's joke after all, although we do have an early fool...

In any case, in order:

Combat reports are exceedingly easy - displaying them during the replay is an option that can be toggled, and you can press 'C' during your orders phase to look back at them.

Carriers not striking - check your settings and look up the rules. That simple. I found it fairly intuitive.

Political points - check in the manual, but it's also intuitively visible on the score screen. Did you try looking?


I like the complexity, but I've got a big brain. I guess you're all the way on galaxy brain level though and don't want to be bothered with the details.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ubwart

Wow reaction range wow i never would have thought that i needed to do that. Of course i have RR set to limit but even my SC units don't seem to move in reaction. in fact the only time I have had a surface action is when my SC force with a 3 or 4 RR arebased at midway and the japs sent a fleet. to midway, they were seen but did my ships ever move to intercept not once. So the battle takes place at .... midway not in the sea near midway. PW and UV both reacted correctly.

I remember testing UV about 20 times with the same attack by an american TF against japs. 20 times moving to the same location with exactly the same number of bomb and torp hits. i have no idea how you hard code attacks to come up with the same results each iteration of the game. WITPAE this game is just too tedious and I love sitting for hours working out my plans.



Reaction range actually has nothing to do with carriers reacting or launching strikes.

Your ships have to 'see' stuff to react to before they can react. Didja think of that?

TFs react correctly in this game. In fact, if I have a complaint, it's that reactions are too frequent, leading to far more action in the game than occurred in the real world. Admittedly this makes it more approachable and less frustrating to play, however.

(in reply to ubwart)
Post #: 37
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 10:18:57 AM   
RhinoDad


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I like the complexity ....

TFs react correctly in this game. In fact, if I have a complaint, it's that reactions are too frequent, leading to far more action in the game than occurred in the real world. Admittedly this makes it more approachable and less frustrating to play, however.

The game puts compression and other abstractions that make for more action than historically, while maintaining a historical feel. I believe striking a good balance, personally though, like you, if it had to be changed it would change toward the less action, less accurate (bombers, naval rifles), more historical. But that can make a game what it can not be, a historical study; and can become quite tedious to play.

As you say it makes game play less frustrating and more approachable, less boring, for the average player who wants this level of detail. Still you have plenty of complaints on the forum from those who do not know their history well, or want more of a video game feel; lots of action, bomb hits, and naval rifle hits.

This player if not a troll seems to wants more of a theme video game. Much simpler with lots more action, more of a comic book feel. The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player. Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story. This level of detail combined with a historical feel becomes tedious and complicated instead of adding depth and playability.

Everyone has their preferred style of game play. Just like shopping one person's quick interesting shop is another's longest, tedious day.

< Message edited by RhinoDad -- 2/3/2021 10:51:50 AM >


_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 38
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 11:40:42 AM   
Trugrit


Posts: 879
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I like the complexity ....

TFs react correctly in this game. In fact, if I have a complaint, it's that reactions are too frequent, leading to far more action in the game than occurred in the real world. Admittedly this makes it more approachable and less frustrating to play, however.

The game puts compression and other abstractions that make for more action than historically, while maintaining a historical feel. I believe striking a good balance, personally though, like you, if it had to be changed it would change toward the less action, less accurate (bombers, naval rifles), more historical. But that can make a game what it can not be, a historical study; and can become quite tedious to play.

As you say it makes game play less frustrating and more approachable, less boring, for the average player who wants this level of detail. Still you have plenty of complaints on the forum from those who do not know their history well, or want more of a video game feel; lots of action, bomb hits, and naval rifle hits.

This player if not a troll seems to wants more of a theme video game. Much simpler with lots more action, more of a comic book feel. The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player. Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story. This level of detail combined with a historical feel becomes tedious and complicated instead of adding depth and playability.

Everyone has their preferred style of game play. Just like shopping one person's quick interesting shop is another's longest, tedious day.

“The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player.
Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story.”


False...It is not “some general guidance from the player.” This game takes a
great deal of player input. More detailed player input than any other wargame
in my humble opinion. Nowhere near a video experience for most players.

Seems the OP was looking for a fun tactical wargame instead of a strategic wargame.

It is a common problem with some people who try this game.

Everyone thinks “carrier battles” when they think of the Pacific War.
This game is not about “carrier battles” it is about the strategic aspects
of brutal mid 20th century industrial warfare. That is very complex and
the workload can be tedious at times.

The Pacific War was more about non-sexy logistics than carrier battles.

This is one of the reasons that I always recommend a new player start with the
main campaign scenarios instead of the small scenarios. They give a much better
understanding of the game right from the start.

A new player can get the idea that the small scenarios are real easy and they can
jump right in, not look at the manual, not do their homework and get some
fun carrier battles which they can easily win. After getting beat numerous times
they blame the game and quit.

This game is not for children or casual gamers it is for very hard core wargamers.

The game carries the label “Expert level” in the game description. Amen!

There is a very good argument for never dropping the price of this game because
a very high price weeds out the casual players and children.


(in reply to RhinoDad)
Post #: 39
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 11:43:12 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9086
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I like the complexity ....

TFs react correctly in this game. In fact, if I have a complaint, it's that reactions are too frequent, leading to far more action in the game than occurred in the real world. Admittedly this makes it more approachable and less frustrating to play, however.

The game puts compression and other abstractions that make for more action than historically, while maintaining a historical feel. I believe striking a good balance, personally though, like you, if it had to be changed it would change toward the less action, less accurate (bombers, naval rifles), more historical. But that can make a game what it can not be, a historical study; and can become quite tedious to play.

As you say it makes game play less frustrating and more approachable, less boring, for the average player who wants this level of detail. Still you have plenty of complaints on the forum from those who do not know their history well, or want more of a video game feel; lots of action, bomb hits, and naval rifle hits.

This player if not a troll seems to wants more of a theme video game. Much simpler with lots more action, more of a comic book feel. The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player. Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story. This level of detail combined with a historical feel becomes tedious and complicated instead of adding depth and playability.

Everyone has their preferred style of game play. Just like shopping one person's quick interesting shop is another's longest, tedious day.

“The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player.
Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story.”


False...It is not “some general guidance from the player.” This game takes a
great deal of player input. More detailed player input than any other wargame
in my humble opinion. Nowhere near a video experience for most players.

Seems the OP was looking for a fun tactical wargame instead of a strategic wargame.

It is a common problem with some people who try this game.

Everyone thinks “carrier battles” when they think of the Pacific War.
This game is not about “carrier battles” it is about the strategic aspects
of brutal mid 20th century industrial warfare. That is very complex and
the workload can be tedious at times.

The Pacific War was more about non-sexy logistics than carrier battles.

This is one of the reasons that I always recommend a new player start with the
main campaign scenarios instead of the small scenarios. They give a much better
understanding of the game right from the start.

A new player can get the idea that the small scenarios are real easy and they can
jump right in, not look at the manual, not do their homework and get some
fun carrier battles which they can easily win. After getting beat numerous times
they blame the game and quit.

This game is not for children or casual gamers it is for very hard core wargamers.

The game carries the label “Expert level” in the game description. Amen!

There is a very good argument for never dropping the price of this game because
a very high price weeds out the casual players and children.





Not for children, perfect 👌....GP

_____________________________

Intel i7 4.3GHz 10th Gen,16GB Ram,Nvidia GeForce MX330

AKA General Patton

WPO,WITP,WITPAE-Mod Designer/Tester
DWU-Beta Tester
TOAW4-Alpha/Beta Tester

"Do everything you ask of those you command"....Gen. George S. Patton

(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 40
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 1:09:19 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4309
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline
I don't think the OP is looking for a fun tactical wargame or "theme video game", with nice graphics and lots of action - if so, he wouldn't have played Pacwar! Yes, the OP is criticising the game results because they do not match his expectations - but that's because he does not understand the game mechanics - and for this he justly deserves the drubbing here! But on the other hand he is criticising the UI - and there he has a point IMO. We have had threads about this in the past - the game is a clickfest and can be tedious, and some UI improvements would be welcome. Be honest, if you hit the "C" key to bring-up the combat reports, wouldn't it be nice if clicking on a location name or coordinates would center the map on the location of the battle? IIRC Pacwar had a keyboard shortcut to display battle locations on the map. Apparently the OP misses things like that in AE - but when he calls the entire game "truly terrible" due to some shortcomings, he completely ignores all the good stuff it has to offer. His loss - everybody has to make his own mistakes.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 2/3/2021 1:10:24 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 41
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 1:39:30 PM   
RhinoDad


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trugrit


quote:

ORIGINAL: RhinoDad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

I like the complexity ....

TFs react correctly in this game. In fact, if I have a complaint, it's that reactions are too frequent, leading to far more action in the game than occurred in the real world. Admittedly this makes it more approachable and less frustrating to play, however.

The game puts compression and other abstractions that make for more action than historically, while maintaining a historical feel. I believe striking a good balance, personally though, like you, if it had to be changed it would change toward the less action, less accurate (bombers, naval rifles), more historical. But that can make a game what it can not be, a historical study; and can become quite tedious to play.

As you say it makes game play less frustrating and more approachable, less boring, for the average player who wants this level of detail. Still you have plenty of complaints on the forum from those who do not know their history well, or want more of a video game feel; lots of action, bomb hits, and naval rifle hits.

This player if not a troll seems to wants more of a theme video game. Much simpler with lots more action, more of a comic book feel. The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player. Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story. This level of detail combined with a historical feel becomes tedious and complicated instead of adding depth and playability.

Everyone has their preferred style of game play. Just like shopping one person's quick interesting shop is another's longest, tedious day.

“The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player.
Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story.”


False...It is not “some general guidance from the player.” This game takes a
great deal of player input. More detailed player input than any other wargame
in my humble opinion. Nowhere near a video experience for most players.

Seems the OP was looking for a fun tactical wargame instead of a strategic wargame.

It is a common problem with some people who try this game.

Everyone thinks “carrier battles” when they think of the Pacific War.
This game is not about “carrier battles” it is about the strategic aspects
of brutal mid 20th century industrial warfare. That is very complex and
the workload can be tedious at times.

The Pacific War was more about non-sexy logistics than carrier battles.

This is one of the reasons that I always recommend a new player start with the
main campaign scenarios instead of the small scenarios. They give a much better
understanding of the game right from the start.

A new player can get the idea that the small scenarios are real easy and they can
jump right in, not look at the manual, not do their homework and get some
fun carrier battles which they can easily win. After getting beat numerous times
they blame the game and quit.

This game is not for children or casual gamers it is for very hard core wargamers.

The game carries the label “Expert level” in the game description. Amen!

There is a very good argument for never dropping the price of this game because
a very high price weeds out the casual players and children.



That is exactly what I said this game is not ubwart seems to want it so.
quote:

This player if not a troll seems to wants more of a theme video game. Much simpler with lots more action, more of a comic book feel. The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player. Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story.

So I am not sure why you started with out of context quote declared it false then restated what I did with more detail. Are you trolling me? (At least I believe that is the current word used in a pajorative sense)

< Message edited by RhinoDad -- 2/3/2021 2:05:59 PM >


_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 42
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 1:55:14 PM   
RhinoDad


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

I don't think the OP is looking for a fun tactical wargame or "theme video game", with nice graphics and lots of action - if so, he wouldn't have played Pacwar! Yes, the OP is criticising the game results because they do not match his expectations - but that's because he does not understand the game mechanics - and for this he justly deserves the drubbing here! But on the other hand he is criticising the UI - and there he has a point IMO. We have had threads about this in the past - the game is a clickfest and can be tedious, and some UI improvements would be welcome. Be honest, if you hit the "C" key to bring-up the combat reports, wouldn't it be nice if clicking on a location name or coordinates would center the map on the location of the battle? IIRC Pacwar had a keyboard shortcut to display battle locations on the map. Apparently the OP misses things like that in AE - but when he calls the entire game "truly terrible" due to some shortcomings, he completely ignores all the good stuff it has to offer. His loss - everybody has to make his own mistakes.


Do not think so either. That is why I said "more of". PacWar was just that, a higher level game with less down in the trench decisions. The players would be something of a theater commander provided units to fight, overall leaders and where to fight, the game engine handled the nitty gritty details that WitP AE demands.

A video game does not require good graphics. It is a style of game that is hands on action, one does not sit contemplating the next move and all the details that it involves, they just do it. First video games were text.


< Message edited by RhinoDad -- 2/3/2021 2:55:44 PM >


_____________________________

Improvise, Adapt and Overcome

Success is how you bounce on the bottom

Experience is a comb life gives us after we have lost our hair

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 43
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 2:32:38 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6617
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

(in reply to RhinoDad)
Post #: 44
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 2:53:01 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

More specifically, I perfectly understood the first paragraph, but absolutely not the second.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 45
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 3:10:08 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6617
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

More specifically, I perfectly understood the first paragraph, but absolutely not the second.


OK.

A football manager who plays a 1-1-8 formation and when his team is awarded a penalty, which is converted demands that it is worth 5 goals. Or a tennis player in the French Open who loses the first 3 sets 6-7, 6-7, 6-7 and then remains on the court demanding the match proceeds because he has already won 18 games and his opponent's 21 won games is not insurmountable as he can win the fourth and fifth sets 6-4, 6-4 giving him a total of 30 won games to his opponent's total of only 29 won games. Or a chess player whose ELO rating is 2300 who manages to draw with an opponent rated 2500 and claims that as he is the lower rated player, he deserves to be awarded 1 point and his opponent 0 point.

Alfred

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 46
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 3:11:42 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 589
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:


“The game engine does its thing with some general guidance from the player.
Like a video with some guidance from the viewer which effects the story.”

False...It is not “some general guidance from the player.” This game takes a
great deal of player input. More detailed player input than any other wargame
in my humble opinion. Nowhere near a video experience for most players.

Seems the OP was looking for a fun tactical wargame instead of a strategic wargame.

It is a common problem with some people who try this game.

Everyone thinks “carrier battles” when they think of the Pacific War.
This game is not about “carrier battles” it is about the strategic aspects
of brutal mid 20th century industrial warfare. That is very complex and
the workload can be tedious at times.

The Pacific War was more about non-sexy logistics than carrier battles.

This is one of the reasons that I always recommend a new player start with the
main campaign scenarios instead of the small scenarios. They give a much better
understanding of the game right from the start.

A new player can get the idea that the small scenarios are real easy and they can
jump right in, not look at the manual, not do their homework and get some
fun carrier battles which they can easily win. After getting beat numerous times
they blame the game and quit.

This game is not for children or casual gamers it is for very hard core wargamers.

The game carries the label “Expert level” in the game description. Amen!

There is a very good argument for never dropping the price of this game because
a very high price weeds out the casual players and children.


Simply perfect.


My perspective is that this game is all about "non-sexy things" like logistics.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

More specifically, I perfectly understood the first paragraph, but absolutely not the second.


What's baseball?


Guess we, Old Continent's proud representatives, should start throwing a football example for every basebasll/american football/cricket one

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Post #: 47
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 3:22:58 PM   
warspite1


Posts: 44998
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

More specifically, I perfectly understood the first paragraph, but absolutely not the second.
warspite1

Authentic Frontier Gibberish


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Post #: 48
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 3:29:28 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17277
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

More specifically, I perfectly understood the first paragraph, but absolutely not the second.
warspite1

Authentic Frontier Gibberish


He can't run after hitting the fly ball because there is a red exclamation mark on the base!

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Post #: 49
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 3:50:01 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

More specifically, I perfectly understood the first paragraph, but absolutely not the second.


OK.

A football manager who plays a 1-1-8 formation and when his team is awarded a penalty, which is converted demands that it is worth 5 goals. Or a tennis player in the French Open who loses the first 3 sets 6-7, 6-7, 6-7 and then remains on the court demanding the match proceeds because he has already won 18 games and his opponent's 21 won games is not insurmountable as he can win the fourth and fifth sets 6-4, 6-4 giving him a total of 30 won games to his opponent's total of only 29 won games. Or a chess player whose ELO rating is 2300 who manages to draw with an opponent rated 2500 and claims that as he is the lower rated player, he deserves to be awarded 1 point and his opponent 0 point.

Alfred

Thanks, I get all this !

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 50
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 3:58:39 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

Posts: 589
Joined: 2/22/2018
From: Italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

More specifically, I perfectly understood the first paragraph, but absolutely not the second.


OK.

A football manager who plays a 1-1-8 formation and when his team is awarded a penalty, which is converted demands that it is worth 5 goals. Or a tennis player in the French Open who loses the first 3 sets 6-7, 6-7, 6-7 and then remains on the court demanding the match proceeds because he has already won 18 games and his opponent's 21 won games is not insurmountable as he can win the fourth and fifth sets 6-4, 6-4 giving him a total of 30 won games to his opponent's total of only 29 won games. Or a chess player whose ELO rating is 2300 who manages to draw with an opponent rated 2500 and claims that as he is the lower rated player, he deserves to be awarded 1 point and his opponent 0 point.

Alfred



Now it's perfect

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Post #: 51
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 4:46:13 PM   
alimentary

 

Posts: 142
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador
I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

Irrelevant baseball details...

If the batter hits the ball into the air and a fielder catches it before it hits the ground, this is called a "fly ball" or "fly out" and the batter is "out". He loses his turn at bat. He is not allowed to run to a base.

In an "inning", one player after another from the batting team take their place at the batters box where they attempt to hit balls thrown past ("pitched to") them. After three players are "out", the inning ends and the other team takes its turn. A standard game has nine innings. A "fly out" as described above is only one of several ways in which a player can be "out". He could also strike out, be tagged out or forced out.

Google tells me the "mercy rule" is that a team that is ahead by 10 runs or more after seven complete innings [or by 15 or more after five] is deemed the winner.

(in reply to Ambassador)
Post #: 52
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/3/2021 9:06:58 PM   
Ambassador

 

Posts: 1674
Joined: 1/11/2008
From: Brussels, Belgium
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alimentary

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ambassador
I’m not familiar enough with baseball to get half of what you said.

Irrelevant baseball details...

If the batter hits the ball into the air and a fielder catches it before it hits the ground, this is called a "fly ball" or "fly out" and the batter is "out". He loses his turn at bat. He is not allowed to run to a base.

In an "inning", one player after another from the batting team take their place at the batters box where they attempt to hit balls thrown past ("pitched to") them. After three players are "out", the inning ends and the other team takes its turn. A standard game has nine innings. A "fly out" as described above is only one of several ways in which a player can be "out". He could also strike out, be tagged out or forced out.

Google tells me the "mercy rule" is that a team that is ahead by 10 runs or more after seven complete innings [or by 15 or more after five] is deemed the winner.


Thanks for the explanation.

I really should get some time to look into it.

(in reply to alimentary)
Post #: 53
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/4/2021 6:38:15 AM   
rsallen64


Posts: 171
Joined: 6/15/2009
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
Then only frustration I feel in this game is when I suffer a consequence because of my own stupidity or lack of understanding of a rule or game mechanic. I'm still learning. I've also had the game for years, played UV, and have been playing war games in one form or another since the 1970s. This is still the best game I've ever played. I don't fault the game because I fail to understand something. Instead, I think how much of a learning curve the actual war was for the real players, and thank God I am not playing with real lives.

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Post #: 54
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/4/2021 7:43:34 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6617
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

Then only frustration I feel in this game is when I suffer a consequence because of my own stupidity or lack of understanding of a rule or game mechanic. I'm still learning. I've also had the game for years, played UV, and have been playing war games in one form or another since the 1970s. This is still the best game I've ever played. I don't fault the game because I fail to understand something. Instead, I think how much of a learning curve the actual war was for the real players, and thank God I am not playing with real lives.


Wish this attitude were adopted by all new players. It would make their life much easier and make the game much more enjoyable for them.

Alfred

(in reply to rsallen64)
Post #: 55
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/4/2021 11:18:29 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9086
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

Then only frustration I feel in this game is when I suffer a consequence because of my own stupidity or lack of understanding of a rule or game mechanic. I'm still learning. I've also had the game for years, played UV, and have been playing war games in one form or another since the 1970s. This is still the best game I've ever played. I don't fault the game because I fail to understand something. Instead, I think how much of a learning curve the actual war was for the real players, and thank God I am not playing with real lives.


Wish this attitude were adopted by all new players. It would make their life much easier and make the game much more enjoyable for them.

Alfred



I agree one hundred percent....GP

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Post #: 56
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/4/2021 11:29:00 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3163
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
Never mind.

I'd just like to suggest the OP stop wasting our time.



< Message edited by Ian R -- 2/4/2021 11:33:45 AM >


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Ian R

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 57
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/4/2021 11:40:17 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9086
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline
I hear ya. Gets tiresome....GP

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DWU-Beta Tester
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Post #: 58
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/4/2021 1:05:11 PM   
adarbrauner

 

Posts: 1494
Joined: 11/3/2016
From: Zichron Yaaqov, Israel; Before, Treviso, Italy
Status: offline
Be more tolerant people, please.

(in reply to btd64)
Post #: 59
RE: A truly terrible game - 2/4/2021 7:56:32 PM   
RhinoDad


Posts: 220
Joined: 12/22/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

In his almost 40 years of designing wargames, no Grigsby game design has ever been lauded as having a cutting edge GUI. Much more common has been the claim that his game designs are just essentially a spreadsheet. One should take with a grain of salt any claim to having invested much time playing old Grigsby games and finding their old, DOS based "GUI" (which of course is a tautological statement in itself), to be better.

The OP is like a baseball batter who hits a flyball and then complains he isn't allowed to run. Or the baseball coach who complains that after 3 outs, the innings ends. Or the baseball coach who demands that the mercy rule not be enforced because his team is definitely going to score 11 runs in the ninth. Or the gridiron coach who claims the game is rigged against his team because after making 2 yards forward progress in 4 plays his team has to hand over the ball to the other team. Or demands that his teams touchdown is worth 15 points with the conversion worth another 10 points. There is a common underlying cause in all these exemplars.

Alfred

No worries, no one has stated or implied that regarding Gary Grigsby games or any other game in this thread for that matter. LargeSlowTarget stated that PacWar was not when he, the only one, mentioned graphics. Do not think OP was commenting on GUI of WitP AE vs PacWar either.

Not sure what it was about, but interesting thought.

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Post #: 60
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