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port attack - 1/31/2021 1:09:38 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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Playing Barbarossa.

This time, I am reading the wonderful hardback RAC manual as I go along. It helps more then the tutorials or other manuals IMO. Anyways, I get to the 'attack port phase'. Avoided this before because I wanted to concentrate on ground combat, but thought I would give it a go to see what happens...

So i assign a german naval bomber to bomb a russian port. Then I get..

[image][/image]

There is no CRT table to consult. Do the russians need a high die roll or a low one? In land combat, high rolls seem to be best, but in ground strikes and naval search it seems to be the opposite.

The RAC manual uses an example of a fictional game between Jeremy and Maria (11.5.6) to explain what's going on but it is complete gibberish - doesn't explain a thing.

I'm going to type in a die roll of 10 to see what happens.






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RE: port attack - 1/31/2021 1:17:27 PM   
Angeldust2

 

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Port Attacks work similar to Naval Combat. Both sides roll for search, to see, if they find each other. If at least one side finds, there is a combat. Depending on the split of the search rolls, one side can get surprise points.

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RE: port attack - 1/31/2021 1:19:38 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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So what are the die rolls needed? There is no CRT.

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RE: port attack - 1/31/2021 1:52:48 PM   
Orm


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For the attacker the opposing side roll should be high, and their own roll low. However, if it is during the surprise impulse then only the defender rolls.

More in next post.

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RE: port attack - 1/31/2021 1:57:52 PM   
Orm


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Port strike uses the 'Air-to-Sea' row in the Naval Combat chart. See picture.

For example: The attacking side has 4 naval air factors (blue box in picture), and there are two ships in the port (blue box), then the result would be 1 damage and 3 aborts (green box) on the ships if there were no AA fire and no surprise points. If the attacker has 4 surprise points and uses them to increase the damage done then the result would be shifted up two steps in the table to 1 X (sunk) and 2 A (red box).




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< Message edited by Orm -- 1/31/2021 2:01:51 PM >


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RE: port attack - 1/31/2021 2:02:56 PM   
Orm


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Any potential AA fire also uses the naval combat chart.

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RE: port attack - 1/31/2021 2:18:16 PM   
Orm


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Regarding the ship defence rolls. If the roll is lower, or equal, than the ships defence value then the ship suffer the result. If the roll is higher than the ships defence value then the ship will suffer one result lower than the damage indicated by the table. If saved, an X becomes a D, and a D becomes an A.

Note that the bottomed ships optional rule may change X results in port.

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 9:26:55 AM   
wobbleguts

 

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Thanks

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 12:23:45 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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I tried another port attack the next axis turn. Rolled a high roll for the allied search, a low one for the axis. This worked as you suggested.

So it seems as the attacker you need a low roll to succeed in air ground attacks/naval searches/port attacks. Are there other times when a low roll is best?

After I put in the die rolls, I was presented with this window.

I had a lot of surprise points to spend and as you can see I spent them all decreasing the allied AA. This was my only port attack, so I thought using them all wouldn't
affect any future action. I'm assuming the surprise points only apply to each individual port attack rather than a pool of surprise port attacks?
Think that's right (quite sure).




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< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 2/1/2021 12:24:47 PM >

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 1:27:42 PM   
craigbear

 

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Depressing AA was not needed as the 2 Russian AA vrs 1 bomber already gives a "-" result in the chart. The surprise column shifts, in this case, should be saved for use when applying damage to the targets.

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 1:48:06 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: craigbear

Depressing AA was not needed as the 2 Russian AA vrs 1 bomber already gives a "-" result in the chart. The surprise column shifts, in this case, should be saved for use when applying damage to the targets.


I'll get my coat.

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 2:43:01 PM   
craigbear

 

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Surprise points can be used in a variety of different phases during the port attack. If I recall, there is AA... then air to air, then application of damage. Likely more.

You are going to make errors as you are just learning the game. Don't stress out too much about it.

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 3:16:14 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts

So it seems as the attacker you need a low roll to succeed in air ground attacks/naval searches/port attacks. Are there other times when a low roll is best?



Lot's of places. And there are also lots of places where a high roll is best...

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 3:50:43 PM   
michaelbaldur


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there is also an easy way to find out how the phase work.

READ THE RULES

there are many part of the game, that is not explained in game. like replacement naval units. you have to read the rules to understand what happens

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RE: port attack - 2/1/2021 11:41:33 PM   
Courtenay


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Places where a high roll is good: Ground combat, strategic air bombardment
Places where a low roll is good: Ground strike, naval combat, including port strikes, HQ support on the 1d10 table,
Places where sometimes a low roll is good, sometimes a high roll: Weather, US entry actions, US entry options
Place where extreme rolls are good: Air-to-air combat.

The designers deliberately made the system so that sometimes you want high rolls, and sometimes low rolls. I think they did this to confuse the dice.

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 1:09:30 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

I think they did this to confuse the dice.


That may be so, but so far all it does is confuse me.

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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 1:12:13 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

Playing Barbarossa.


I'm in the same boat. I did the same thing with the port attack, but its obvious to me that my understanding of it is far less than yours.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 10:44:35 AM   
Centuur


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Perhaps this can help:

RAW:

Search rolls
The search rolls determine how many surprise points each side will
have. This is similar to normal naval combats (see 11.5.6). Unlike
normal naval combats, they do not determine which units take part
unless someone (usually the defender) spends enough surprise points
to avoid the combat.
Surprise points
You get surprise points equal to:
• the modified search number in the highest sea-box section
containing a unit you have included in the combat; and
• your opponent’s unmodified search roll.
Land based bombers attacking are treated as being in the 3 section.
The defender is in the 3 section if the port is a minor port, and the 5
section if the port is a major port. Carrier planes are in the section their
CV is in (whose search numbers can be modified by the presence of
NAVs and CVs ~ see 8.2.4). CVs in port do not modify the search
number.


and:

11.5.6 Surprise points
Work out the difference between your surprise points and your
opponent’s. Whoever has the most can spend that difference. If there
is no difference, or if you have the least, you can’t spend any points.



< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/2/2021 10:46:08 AM >


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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 10:44:54 AM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur


there is also an easy way to find out how the phase work.

READ THE RULES

there are many part of the game, that is not explained in game. like replacement naval units. you have to read the rules to understand what happens


I am. To remind you, I started this thread by saying....'This time, I am reading the wonderful hardback RAC manual as I go along.

Consulted RAC and it didn't make sense. If it did I wouldn't have posted. If you read the top post I said 'The RAC manual uses an example of a fictional game between Jeremy and Maria (11.5.6) to explain what's going on but it is complete gibberish - doesn't explain a thing.'

So i had a window about surprise points for defenders with no CRT or explanation and I did RTFM. It just doesn't make sense.




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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 10:47:45 AM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Places where a high roll is good: Ground combat, strategic air bombardment
Places where a low roll is good: Ground strike, naval combat, including port strikes, HQ support on the 1d10 table,
Places where sometimes a low roll is good, sometimes a high roll: Weather, US entry actions, US entry options
Place where extreme rolls are good: Air-to-air combat.

The designers deliberately made the system so that sometimes you want high rolls, and sometimes low rolls. I think they did this to confuse the dice.


Thanks, that does help. Is a low roll good for all naval phasing side combat?

< Message edited by wobbleguts -- 2/2/2021 10:52:05 AM >

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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 10:49:32 AM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Places where a high roll is good: Ground combat, strategic air bombardment
Places where a low roll is good: Ground strike, naval combat, including port strikes, HQ support on the 1d10 table,
Places where sometimes a low roll is good, sometimes a high roll: Weather, US entry actions, US entry options
Place where extreme rolls are good: Air-to-air combat.

The designers deliberately made the system so that sometimes you want high rolls, and sometimes low rolls. I think they did this to confuse the dice.


Thanks, that does help. Is a low roll good for all naval combat?


Depends on if you want the enemy to find you or not. If you want to find the enemy, yes. If you don't want him to find you: no.

And on damage control on your ships, it is best to roll high...

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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 1:36:38 PM   
Courtenay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Places where a high roll is good: Ground combat, strategic air bombardment
Places where a low roll is good: Ground strike, naval combat, including port strikes, HQ support on the 1d10 table,
Places where sometimes a low roll is good, sometimes a high roll: Weather, US entry actions, US entry options
Place where extreme rolls are good: Air-to-air combat.

The designers deliberately made the system so that sometimes you want high rolls, and sometimes low rolls. I think they did this to confuse the dice.


Thanks, that does help. Is a low roll good for all naval combat?


Depends on if you want the enemy to find you or not. If you want to find the enemy, yes. If you don't want him to find you: no.

And on damage control on your ships, it is best to roll high...

However, if the enemy does find you, it is best to have rolled low.

Example: The Germans decide to make a surface raid against CW convoy lines. The CW has one or two cruisers in the four box, and bunch of convoys and a few escorts in the zero box. The CW would really prefer for there to be no combat in this area at all this impulse. So if the Germans roll high and do not find the Allies, the CW would like to roll high so there would be no naval combat. However, if the Germans do find the Allies, the CW would much prefer to roll low, and have their cruisers find the Germans. That way the CW's precious convoy points are saved, at least until the next round of naval combat (still this impulse). The cruisers? Well, no one joined the navy to be safe. Of course, if the Germans roll high enough, a low roll also works for the CW, because then they will have enough surprise points to cancel the combat.

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I thought I knew how to play this game....

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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 2:08:04 PM   
wobbleguts

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Places where a high roll is good: Ground combat, strategic air bombardment
Places where a low roll is good: Ground strike, naval combat, including port strikes, HQ support on the 1d10 table,
Places where sometimes a low roll is good, sometimes a high roll: Weather, US entry actions, US entry options
Place where extreme rolls are good: Air-to-air combat.

The designers deliberately made the system so that sometimes you want high rolls, and sometimes low rolls. I think they did this to confuse the dice.


Thanks, that does help. Is a low roll good for all naval combat?


Depends on if you want the enemy to find you or not. If you want to find the enemy, yes. If you don't want him to find you: no.

And on damage control on your ships, it is best to roll high...

However, if the enemy does find you, it is best to have rolled low.

Example: The Germans decide to make a surface raid against CW convoy lines. The CW has one or two cruisers in the four box, and bunch of convoys and a few escorts in the zero box. The CW would really prefer for there to be no combat in this area at all this impulse. So if the Germans roll high and do not find the Allies, the CW would like to roll high so there would be no naval combat. However, if the Germans do find the Allies, the CW would much prefer to roll low, and have their cruisers find the Germans. That way the CW's precious convoy points are saved, at least until the next round of naval combat (still this impulse). The cruisers? Well, no one joined the navy to be safe. Of course, if the Germans roll high enough, a low roll also works for the CW, because then they will have enough surprise points to cancel the combat.


Thanks again.

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RE: port attack - 2/2/2021 4:54:37 PM   
Centuur


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay


quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


quote:

ORIGINAL: wobbleguts


quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

Places where a high roll is good: Ground combat, strategic air bombardment
Places where a low roll is good: Ground strike, naval combat, including port strikes, HQ support on the 1d10 table,
Places where sometimes a low roll is good, sometimes a high roll: Weather, US entry actions, US entry options
Place where extreme rolls are good: Air-to-air combat.

The designers deliberately made the system so that sometimes you want high rolls, and sometimes low rolls. I think they did this to confuse the dice.


Thanks, that does help. Is a low roll good for all naval combat?


Depends on if you want the enemy to find you or not. If you want to find the enemy, yes. If you don't want him to find you: no.

And on damage control on your ships, it is best to roll high...

However, if the enemy does find you, it is best to have rolled low.

Example: The Germans decide to make a surface raid against CW convoy lines. The CW has one or two cruisers in the four box, and bunch of convoys and a few escorts in the zero box. The CW would really prefer for there to be no combat in this area at all this impulse. So if the Germans roll high and do not find the Allies, the CW would like to roll high so there would be no naval combat. However, if the Germans do find the Allies, the CW would much prefer to roll low, and have their cruisers find the Germans. That way the CW's precious convoy points are saved, at least until the next round of naval combat (still this impulse). The cruisers? Well, no one joined the navy to be safe. Of course, if the Germans roll high enough, a low roll also works for the CW, because then they will have enough surprise points to cancel the combat.


True. But it wouldn't be the first time that a naval combat occurs with to few surprise points to avoid combat. And than comes another round, giving the enemy the chance to kill your convoys a second time...

< Message edited by Centuur -- 2/2/2021 4:57:54 PM >


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