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Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/28/2021 2:24:15 AM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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Not too happy a camper here so far.

I know I'm new, but after two weeks I can't really navigate anything. As far as I'm concerned there's absolutely nothing about this system that's anywhere near intuitive, and I've been around games and industrial systems my whole life.

OK, rant over.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb
Post #: 1
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/28/2021 5:36:36 AM   
Angeldust2

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 4/28/2020
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In a way I can feel and sympathize with you. This was my first impression as well, some years ago. But quickly I discovered, this game provides much better tools to learn than most others! There are different paths available to master this excellent game. I started my trip of discovery by
1. Reading/Scanning the player manual (easily downloadable as .pdf from game menu)
2. Becoming reacquainted with WiF gamesystem, I "played" (Barbarossa scenario twice and Global War with 5 players till end of 1940 once) the board game 2nd edition in the end of 80's, early 90's
3. Studying the text tutorials (half a day effort)
4. Trying the interactive tutorials (short day effort): This is important to learn basic game mechanisms and also to learn how to operate the user interface and to start grasping the thinking and nomenclature of the game designer. Later, after some solitaire tinkering with the game, I came back and did the interactive tutorials completely a second time, that went much smoother. One or two chapters I did even a 3rd time after I finished the first scenario.
5. Watching the videos on YT (one day, with lots of breaks). This is time consuming and most stuff is redundant after manual, text & interactive tutorials, but still it was worth the effort for 1-2% better/more complete understanding.
6. Starting Barbarossa in solitaire and fooling around, realising that you don't know what and how to do, for both sides ... Going back to interactive tutorials for a second time.
7. Playing Barbarossa solitaire from Start to Finish. Usually the Allies are losing most battle on the map, but are winning the game nevertheless. Realising the importance of the weather roll.
8. Playing Barbarossa Fast Start scenario with another player as a mirror game by PBEM.
9. Playing Barbarossa with own set of optional rules with another player as a mirror game by PBEM.
10. All the time monitoring the MWiF forum for new info and developments. Learning by following the different detailed AAR's, both from past and present.
11. Playing Guadalcanal Fast Start scenario (very classic WiF, without PiF!) first solitaire, then with another player as a mirror game by PBEM.
12. Playing Guadalcanal with own set of optional rules with another player as a mirror game by PBEM.
13. Playing the 1-map scenarios with own set of optional rules with another player as a mirror game by PBEM. Unfortunately we are currently stalled at this point, as the two 1-map scenarios are not yet accessable. I hope, Steve will implemente them AFTER the remaining optional rules are coded and BEFORE starting to work on the AI, as he has stated some time ago in an official Matrix announcement about the future path of development.
14. Starting Global War scenario and playing a couple of turns with own set of optional rules with another player as a mirror game by PBEM.
15. Playing Global War scenario with own set of optional rules with FIVE players as a mirror game by PBEM.
16. Playing Global War scenario with own set of optional rules with another player as a mirror game by netplay. In this moment, I think this pinnacle of gamesmanship in MWiF is not feasible.
Not only seems netplay to be not yet fully stable, but it seems the game lends itself more to the PBEM mode, due to scope of the game and time needed for every phase and subphase. Playing by PBEM allows for taking all the time needed, without locking your opponent to his computer without doing anything and getting bored to death.

Hope this helps, the described approach worked for me, so far ...

< Message edited by Angeldust2 -- 1/28/2021 5:39:16 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 2
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/28/2021 6:43:28 AM   
werwolf

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

Not too happy a camper here so far.

I know I'm new, but after two weeks I can't really navigate anything. As far as I'm concerned there's absolutely nothing about this system that's anywhere near intuitive, and I've been around games and industrial systems my whole life.

OK, rant over.


I totally agree. a lot of functions and options - that were already taken in the beta version of Chris Marinacci (16 bit)- are missing. Fortunately, I have an old notebook that I can still play with. The new version is "older than the old". And it's not cheap either. Money literally thrown away.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 3
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/28/2021 8:13:10 AM   
Angeldust2

 

Posts: 91
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Oh, could you please elaborate a little bit more on the lot of functions and options, which were already fully functional in Marinacci's CWiF and which are now still missing?

IMHO MWiF offers the best value for money for a computer game by far. As you can see from my post #2 in this thread, MWiF leads to immersing in the game not by hours or days, but for months and years! Also, the ongoing support, bugfixing, developing and improving, even adding new functions after so many years is exemplary and the community is very thankful for these unselfish efforts.
I consider the list price for this gem of a strategic wargame neglectable. If somebody cannot afford it, Matrix has it on sale several times a year for a ridiculously low discount price, last such sale was not even a month ago.

< Message edited by Angeldust2 -- 1/28/2021 8:15:07 AM >

(in reply to werwolf)
Post #: 4
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/28/2021 11:14:19 AM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
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I hear you, rustysi

I am an experienced WIF player, and I went through the books fast when I first tried the game and thought that would be all the necessary, cause the game would be intuitive. Some aspects are, but some other are just the opposite, starting by selecting a fighter with a land bombing factor, that the game doesnt ask you if you want to be bombing, or intercepting/escorting . The game assumes it's the latter unless you use a drop-down menu before moving it. You forget, you cant bomb. I guess it had to be this way or you would have endless popup windows to ask in which mission you send every plane you move with this caaracteristics...

But the truth is that if you dont study dutifully all the ins and out of the game, like how to overrun land units, how to select the engineers specific abiliies, how to load a unit from the coast or many others, you may miss many possibiities and if you know WIF you'll start finding unexisting bugs all the time because you cant do what you should be able to do.

Production is a nightmare, not only you need to learn a lot of mechanisms to get it right but also that doesnt mean the game will accept you instructions because there is an AI that will cancel some of yout commands if it doesnt see it fit. Not only in the case your routes are impossible because of lack of convoys but because the AI insists in carrying your resources through inefficient, redundant routes, wasting your deployed convoys and stopping other resources to arrive.

It's a pity because this game I can only define as a Jewel, but it is not completely polished.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 1/28/2021 11:25:05 AM >

(in reply to Angeldust2)
Post #: 5
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/29/2021 4:56:07 AM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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Thanks for the replies guys.

Yeah, I'm doing due diligence as to reading and studying stuff, but thought that after a bit I could go to the map and runs some stuff. Just wanted to start poking around and looking at things. With all the setup stuff, can't do it. Oh well, I guess I can poke around the mini-scenarios.

quote:

Production is a nightmare, not only you need to learn a lot of mechanisms


I get that there may be some things here that don't work quite right. But have you ever played WitP-AE from the Japanese side? I have for years now and its production complexity puts this thing to shame. Things must be finely balanced and if not you may not know for 'game years' until your economy crashes and you're only in 1944.



_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 6
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/29/2021 9:59:05 AM   
Joseignacio


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From: Madrid, Spain
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I have not played Witp but the problem here is that production fine tunning is somewhat complicated by itself, with the convoys setting, the replacement of losses, and my hated production gearing limits:

But then it comes the MWIF system, which needs of a chapter in the book and several videos, the central one lasting more than 1 hour, to be able to handle production. Really intuitive.

And that is not all because the system doesnt even work, aside from a (recent, I believe) bug affecting resources coming from trade agreement, the game has kind of an AI that doesn't let you do convoy lines where there are not enough convoys for example. Problem is that sometimes it doesn't let you where there are convoys, because this AI uses the convoys inefficiently, routing them through stupid turns and doesnt let you correct them (if you correct one then it modifyes another to get the same stupid route).

Because of this, you need to have X extra convoys in some areas of the other routes , where the AI has stupidly used convoys it needn't use. Using X extra convoys alters the game, because you need to have the extra convoys first (out of your reserve for subs attacks), which is not always possible or wise, and besides they become a juicier objective for the enemy.

The worst of it is that this is almost the only huge black spot in a wonderful, brilliant developenment such as MWIF of an amazing complexity, and could be solved by simply let you decide where your convoys go and carrying what, with an error message if the route you decided sea by sea was impossible and why,

The AI makes me furious every time. No matter that I follow the instructions, I always end with like 3 resources less as CW. That's a lot in more than 30 turns. Some players have had to edit the files to get more convoys (but they are still a bigger objective for subs than they should be) or just storing more oil in replacement of the lost ones.

To have this in this game is like having a diamond covered in sh*t, it would just need a good wash so everybody could appreciate it's beauty but at the moment, it's pretty stinky and ugly.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 1/29/2021 10:02:12 AM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 7
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/30/2021 3:28:37 AM   
rustysi


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From: LI, NY
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All I can say is that this will hopefully be corrected in time, and it won't take too much longer.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 8
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/30/2021 8:17:22 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

All I can say is that this will hopefully be corrected in time, and it won't take too much longer.
warspite1

Right rustysi, if you are serious about learning this game then let's do that. And what is this I hear about you faffing around with 'mini-scenarios'?? Did I hear you right soldier? Mini-scenarios? To hell with that, are you a man or a mouse?

You've played WITP-AE so man (or should I say person these days) up and get on with it. We can go through this step by step. What I can't help you with is the convoy/production system because at the moment that is something of a b****** child. However, you are learning this wonderful game with a solitaire so that really doesn't matter much at this stage.

Now, fire up a Global War game immediatement (as we say en Francais) and choose the optionals below.

I and others (who actually understand what they are doing) will be here to run through your questions. You can post lots of pictures - preferably of the game (but you can include Alison Brie, Jenna Coleman or Mary Elizabeth Winstead if you really must) and we can take it from there.





Attachment (1)

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England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 9
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/30/2021 2:49:57 PM   
Orm


Posts: 21633
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: online
Hear, hear.

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Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/30/2021 4:50:53 PM   
rkr1958


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Joined: 5/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

All I can say is that this will hopefully be corrected in time, and it won't take too much longer.
warspite1

Right rustysi, if you are serious about learning this game then let's do that. And what is this I hear about you faffing around with 'mini-scenarios'?? Did I hear you right soldier? Mini-scenarios? To hell with that, are you a man or a mouse?

You've played WITP-AE so man (or should I say person these days) up and get on with it. We can go through this step by step. What I can't help you with is the convoy/production system because at the moment that is something of a b****** child. However, you are learning this wonderful game with a solitaire so that really doesn't matter much at this stage.

Now, fire up a Global War game immediatement (as we say en Francais) and choose the optionals below.

I and others (who actually understand what they are doing) will be here to run through your questions. You can post lots of pictures - preferably of the game (but you can include Alison Brie, Jenna Coleman or Mary Elizabeth Winstead if you really must) and we can take it from there.
Sounds like somebody had their Wheaties this morning.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Ronnie

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 11
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/30/2021 6:35:09 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2282
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From: Madrid, Spain
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(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 12
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/31/2021 4:22:20 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7015
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From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

All I can say is that this will hopefully be corrected in time, and it won't take too much longer.
warspite1

Right rustysi, if you are serious about learning this game then let's do that. And what is this I hear about you faffing around with 'mini-scenarios'?? Did I hear you right soldier? Mini-scenarios? To hell with that, are you a man or a mouse?

You've played WITP-AE so man (or should I say person these days) up and get on with it. We can go through this step by step. What I can't help you with is the convoy/production system because at the moment that is something of a b****** child. However, you are learning this wonderful game with a solitaire so that really doesn't matter much at this stage.

Now, fire up a Global War game immediatement (as we say en Francais) and choose the optionals below.

I and others (who actually understand what they are doing) will be here to run through your questions. You can post lots of pictures - preferably of the game (but you can include Alison Brie, Jenna Coleman or Mary Elizabeth Winstead if you really must) and we can take it from there.








Yeah, I deserved that and then some.

At the present I'm just trying to learn the interface.

As far as WitP-AE goes, I studied the game for a long time before I posted anything. I did jump right into the GC, but I had played PACWAR, and WitP before previously.

TBH, I'm only going with the short scenarios here because I don't have to get involved with the set-up. Once I understand the interface I'll jump to the 'Global War' game, which is where I want to be.

Thanks warspite1, I hope we can play sometime so I can learn the lessens I'm sure you may teach myself.

< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/14/2021 9:17:41 PM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 13
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/31/2021 9:38:51 AM   
Centuur


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From: Hoorn (NED).
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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

All I can say is that this will hopefully be corrected in time, and it won't take too much longer.
warspite1

Right rustysi, if you are serious about learning this game then let's do that. And what is this I hear about you faffing around with 'mini-scenarios'?? Did I hear you right soldier? Mini-scenarios? To hell with that, are you a man or a mouse?

You've played WITP-AE so man (or should I say person these days) up and get on with it. We can go through this step by step. What I can't help you with is the convoy/production system because at the moment that is something of a b****** child. However, you are learning this wonderful game with a solitaire so that really doesn't matter much at this stage.

Now, fire up a Global War game immediatement (as we say en Francais) and choose the optionals below.

I and others (who actually understand what they are doing) will be here to run through your questions. You can post lots of pictures - preferably of the game (but you can include Alison Brie, Jenna Coleman or Mary Elizabeth Winstead if you really must) and we can take it from there.






Sergeant! You better get the books out again and start to redo your studies on the convoy/production system. It works pretty well for me at the moment. You will never become part of the officer corps if you don't understand that one!
Carry on...

_____________________________

Peter

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Post #: 14
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/31/2021 3:32:31 PM   
Joseignacio


Posts: 2282
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From: Madrid, Spain
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur


Sergeant! You better get the books out again and start to redo your studies on the convoy/production system. It works pretty well for me at the moment. You will never become part of the officer corps if you don't understand that one!
Carry on...


I understand you mean it works very well in general terms, because if you say the conv/prod system now works very well, it must be on the new beta you are testing, haha

There are still many smaller glitches, like some days ago i had my CW unsupplied in Egypt but although I had a "basic supply path of anty length", it didn't restore my fleet in Alexandria.

It happened even worse to my opponent in the other game I am playing, where I am axis, and his CW units didnt get supply from Cairo even though there was a conv line to both India and SA.

And so on... I only report the most disturbing ones, it's too much work else.

(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 15
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 1/31/2021 6:52:38 PM   
gmtello

 

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Hi i play wif witp and wite. Learning japanese player took me 2 years and had to read many threads and watch vids. Wif is a dif game In my opinión Not as fun as wite. Takes same time to learn but with les effort. Otherwise once you handle witp is very similar ,In the games, there are Always minor Things to learn while wif there are always major surprises In the games for Booth sides things that rules Dont sort out complettely. There are rules interpretations much often Than witp



(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 16
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/13/2021 8:13:43 AM   
juntoalmar


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From: Valencia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Production is a nightmare



So I guess it's not working properly yet. Which make me think, shouldn't the production be fixed before putting effort in the AIO?

I mean, it is something much simpler than the AI. To begin with, the AIO should do its production, doesn't it? So, you need to fix production AI to have a working AIO, anyway.

I feel you could fix a smaller problem, faster, and that will benefit all the players now (not only those playing against the AIO in the future).

Just an opinion.

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(my humble blog about wargames, in spanish) http://cabezadepuente.blogspot.com.es/

(in reply to Joseignacio)
Post #: 17
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/13/2021 10:40:09 AM   
Joseignacio


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Production is a nightmare



So I guess it's not working properly yet. Which make me think, shouldn't the production be fixed before putting effort in the AIO?

I mean, it is something much simpler than the AI. To begin with, the AIO should do its production, doesn't it? So, you need to fix production AI to have a working AIO, anyway.

I feel you could fix a smaller problem, faster, and that will benefit all the players now (not only those playing against the AIO in the future).

Just an opinion.



I guess the focus is now in the AIO so that the game can be sold to many more possible customers. Things like something so simple as letting the player decide which sea he wants his resources to cross with a warning that it's not possible in case he doensn't have enough resources seem unimportant to program.

Even that, which may be a lot of work for the player when the subs disrupt your lines, is nothing compared to explaining what you want to do to a dumb AI that insists in doing it completely wrong no matter what you say.

I heard Steven wants this stupid convoy AI as a part of his game AI. This mentally handicapped AI won't help his game AI but hinder it, but anyway he could at least cancel it for those who are playinig Netplay and are not using AIO.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 2/13/2021 10:41:09 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 12:36:09 AM   
Bamilus


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Man, I really want to dust this game off but it's nuts how little it's come in 10 years. Things that were promised 10 years ago aren't even in the game yet and there's still serious bugs. Yikes. Maybe in another ten I'll check back in.

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Post #: 19
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 1:53:56 AM   
rkr1958


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus

Man, I really want to dust this game off but it's nuts how little it's come in 10 years. Things that were promised 10 years ago aren't even in the game yet and there's still serious bugs. Yikes. Maybe in another ten I'll check back in.
Personally, I think you're being a bit unfair. This game has come a long way in 10-year. I would rate MWiF in it's current state as a good to very good game. I do wish a wider community contribution/development philosophy had been adopted from the start in which case I have no doubt that MWiF would now be considered an excellent game and accepted by the WiF community at large. Though I'm sadden that I believe this chance has long passed. But still, MWiF is a good to very good game in it's on right and I have and will continue to enjoy playing it hours on end.


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Ronnie

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Post #: 20
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 3:16:35 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7015
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Production is a nightmare



So I guess it's not working properly yet. Which make me think, shouldn't the production be fixed before putting effort in the AIO?

I mean, it is something much simpler than the AI. To begin with, the AIO should do its production, doesn't it? So, you need to fix production AI to have a working AIO, anyway.

I feel you could fix a smaller problem, faster, and that will benefit all the players now (not only those playing against the AIO in the future).

Just an opinion.


I'm just the FNG here, but it looks to me that it does work. Looking at the video tutorials #13,14.

Its definitely a convoluted process, and you may have to tell it a few times what it is you wish it to do, but it does seem to work in the end.

Or am I wrong?


< Message edited by rustysi -- 2/14/2021 3:22:29 AM >


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to juntoalmar)
Post #: 21
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 3:46:50 AM   
rkr1958


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Joined: 5/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Production is a nightmare



So I guess it's not working properly yet. Which make me think, shouldn't the production be fixed before putting effort in the AIO?

I mean, it is something much simpler than the AI. To begin with, the AIO should do its production, doesn't it? So, you need to fix production AI to have a working AIO, anyway.

I feel you could fix a smaller problem, faster, and that will benefit all the players now (not only those playing against the AIO in the future).

Just an opinion.


I'm just the FNG here, but it looks to me that it does work. Looking at the video tutorials #13,14.

Its definitely a convoluted process, and you may have to tell it a few times what it is you wish it to do, but it does seem to work in the end.

Or am I wrong?

rustyi, here's my take on it. The current production/convoy system in MWiF has two learning curves. One modest and one steep. The modest one will generally get folks to the 90% optimum solution and the steep one will get you to 99%. A number, if not most, WiF players (i.e., of the cardboard and paper version) are use to getting to the 99 to 100% solution. Without climbing up the steep learning curve these players only get the 90% solution and are frustrated. Truth be told, sometimes the frustration is valid but sometimes the WiF player has been playing a rule incorrectly. There's no budge in MWiF when it comes to the rules. Or at least the rules as coded.

< Message edited by rkr1958 -- 2/14/2021 3:47:44 AM >


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Post #: 22
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 4:11:58 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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When playing MWIF, I frequently find that the program implements the rules much better than I do.

Now I have been playing WIF since 1985 and programming MWIF since 2004. I wrote the 3 volume players' manual (750+ pages), wrote all the picture and text tutorials, and recorded all but one of the training videos.

In addition, over the past couple of years, I have been playing against various opponents via NetPlay 10 to 30 hours a week.

But still, I run across places where the game 'knows' stuff that I have forgotten.

A recent example: artillery units cannot fire over alpine hexsides.

There seems to be at least one instance every week, where I expect to be able to do something and the program says: "no, no, no!" Or the program identifies an air unit that can fly a mission that I had not taken into consideration (defensive ground support - argh).

Players who learned on the board game version WIF, who take up MWIF are often surprised by how much they were not playing in perfect accordance with the written rules.

< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 2/14/2021 4:14:22 AM >


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Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 23
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 5:58:53 AM   
Angeldust2

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 4/28/2020
Status: online
Exactly.
This makes MWIF the perfect learning tool even for cardboard WIF players!
And it keeps MWIF in its current incarnation valid, even with WIFCE (=RAW8) published two years ago. The advantages of MWIF far outweigh the thrill of the latest boardgame version, which IMHO did improve with only some, but not all, new features.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 24
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 10:13:13 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 44611
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

ORIGINAL: juntoalmar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Production is a nightmare



So I guess it's not working properly yet. Which make me think, shouldn't the production be fixed before putting effort in the AIO?

I mean, it is something much simpler than the AI. To begin with, the AIO should do its production, doesn't it? So, you need to fix production AI to have a working AIO, anyway.

I feel you could fix a smaller problem, faster, and that will benefit all the players now (not only those playing against the AIO in the future).

Just an opinion.


I'm just the FNG here, but it looks to me that it does work. Looking at the video tutorials #13,14.

Its definitely a convoluted process, and you may have to tell it a few times what it is you wish it to do, but it does seem to work in the end.

Or am I wrong?

rustyi, here's my take on it. The current production/convoy system in MWiF has two learning curves. One modest and one steep. The modest one will generally get folks to the 90% optimum solution and the steep one will get you to 99%. A number, if not most, WiF players (i.e., of the cardboard and paper version) are use to getting to the 99 to 100% solution. Without climbing up the steep learning curve these players only get the 90% solution and are frustrated. Truth be told, sometimes the frustration is valid but sometimes the WiF player has been playing a rule incorrectly. There's no budge in MWiF when it comes to the rules. Or at least the rules as coded.
warspite1

If it were only the case of ‘tell it a few times what it is you wish it to do” then there wouldn’t be a problem. But there is a problem.

Just look at the last few AAR I was involved in. Oil is a problem – and if it were just my oil then fair enough, but Germany, Italy and the CW all had problems and I wasn’t playing both sides! Incorrect calculation of oil, oil going missing and the convoy system have problems.

I would echo rkr1958 (who talks a lot of sense). Yes, the game can get you 90% of the way – and sometimes even 100% depending on what is happening in game at the time. To say “it does seem to work in the end” is a slap in the face to players (although I know you didn’t mean it in that way). Many is the time I’ve got ready for a session of MWIF only to find that my opponent sends an e-mail, pulling his hair out in frustration with the convoy system (and I am talking about two experienced players here) and stating there will be no play today as they need to walk away.

MWIF is a game where 1 or 2 build points can be absolutely crucial – and 1 or 2 build points over the game? Yes, crucial. They can buy convoy or fighters, pilots etc. or more (where saved for another turn). 90% sounds not too bad, but missing those points can make a lot of difference in MWIF.

And the general state of the system means that confidence in it is shot for many. So this leads to scenarios where something can’t be done – but the automatic response to this is that it must be the program, whereas, as rkr1958 says, it can sometimes be incorrect rule interpretation. I was guilty of this in a recent AAR. My only defence is that there were so many genuine issues going on, my assumption was that my inability to do something was the program’s fault… again.

As with any game, being beaten by someone who understands and plays the game better is how it should be – being beaten because you can’t get the program to do what the rules say it can – but your opponent can - is something else. In cases where games are friendly this can be got around by having your opponent check the calculations. But this is not ideal and not how it should be. Apart from the fact it can alert them to areas of potential exploit they might otherwise have overlooked, it is also an unfair drag on their time.

So for the present I am away from MWIF, playing a game that is very good, but not up to MWIF level (nothing is) but what makes up for anything lacking in the game, is more than made up for by the fact that I just play turn after turn after turn without the dread that at the end of the turn I’ve got to tackle convoys and production. No dramas, no tantrums, no frustration.

As Steve says above, the program is so good in reflecting the myriad of rules (and there are one or two rules to code!!) in so many ways. But production in a Strategic game? Well it's kind of important and the convoy, saving oil, and production phases generally needs some serious love and attention before the AI - after all, the AI needs a functioning system the same as the human players. I hope progress is made soon.





_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to rkr1958)
Post #: 25
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 10:36:48 AM   
Centuur


Posts: 8666
Joined: 6/3/2011
From: Hoorn (NED).
Status: offline
In the past, I hated the production planning system. I never was able to get it right. Now, however, I have got a 100% score on production every time.

I let the program calculate things for me and there are only a few changes I have to make, which almost every time have to do with allocating factories to make sure build points are send off to allies using the route I want them to or making decision which oil to save where. I make all changes during the preliminary production planning phase. I don't close any major power on my side until all are correct. I use as few default settings and routes as possible. I almost never use override settings.

If things really are going wrong (when f.e. convoy lines are damaged without being able to repair everything), I will simply delete all override and default settings of all major powers involved and let the program calculate things for me. To restart with a "clean sheet" is a simple but very effective solution if that happens.

The final production planning for me is usually not more than stating: "it's correct" unless there has been some kind of naval combat during the return to base phase which caused convoy losses.

And finally: I never will make changes to the production planning forms in the impulses themselves. Simply because next impulse those SUB's or convoy raiders might sink your convoys anyhow. So making changes apart from the preliminary production planning phase is nothing more than a waste of time...



_____________________________

Peter

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 26
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 11:12:36 AM   
warspite1


Posts: 44611
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline
Hi Centuur

So would you be interested in assisting me? I will play a solo game. The purpose of this is not to play a complete game as such (the length of this 'game' would depend on what happens).

I would play through as both Allies and Axis - and I will try and mirror as much as I can, a recent game where there was problems with the oil calculation and losing oil.

I will post step by step screenshots of what I am doing and what results I am getting. Your input would be required to provide advice on what you do in this situation and how your explanation above translates into an actual 'game'.

Hopefully there will be minimal effort required on your part - I would just need your commitment to keeping this going as long as necessary - providing comment and support (not on the game, just on convoys, saving and production). Worst case, if something really goes wrong, I would send you the end of turn file to work on (but I am hoping that would never be the case).

You are saying you are getting 100% on production every time. If that is the case I really want to know and understand how this is being achieved because that is just not the experience I've ever had.

Would you be interested? If this works then maybe it can be used to help others.

If so, the version I have installed is called 4.2.0 (Debug). Do you have this or do I need to update?

Thank-you.



_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805



(in reply to Centuur)
Post #: 27
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 12:21:48 PM   
Orm


Posts: 21633
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: online
I am also getting 100% production every time (or elect to go forward with the wrong oil count in order to save the time it takes to redo the EoT). However, there are some elusive bugs in it that are extremely tricky to avoid. And sometimes it is a prolonged campaign to get it to 100%. And after you think you got it all you complete the end of turn only to find that an oil that were set to be saved were not saved. Then you have to go back and redo it all to get to 100% or just continue with the wrong oil count.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to warspite1)
Post #: 28
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 1:16:24 PM   
Orm


Posts: 21633
Joined: 5/3/2008
From: Sweden
Status: online
And now I must correct myself. Once again extremely frustrated with resource, and oil, handling in MWIF. The Persian oil that is traded from Persia to CW is not included in CW production. It is listed in the traded oil resources, but not included in the specified list below. Argh! And at the moment it eludes me what needs to be done to get it included. I should be able to order the Persian oil to be saved in Egypt without the need of any CPs, and yet I can not give it any order at all since it is not in the CW resource list. However, it is listed as going to CW when looking at the neutral resources.

Now I need a break from MWIF.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 29
RE: Nothing intuitive here, move along - 2/14/2021 2:21:28 PM   
Angeldust2

 

Posts: 91
Joined: 4/28/2020
Status: online
I feel your pain !

But may I politely suggest, you file a regular bug report including a saved file in order to give Steve a chance to fix this specific bug? Probably you will do it anyway, as soon as your anger has declined a little bit ...

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 30
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