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RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA

 
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RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/15/2021 9:53:03 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

My preference would be that the fleet has to be in "patrol mode" to contributed, in which case it would cover the entire convoy line it sits on but not be available for anything else.

+1

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Post #: 31
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/15/2021 10:02:48 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

quote:

@ Alvaro: on a related issue, 1 reason you gave for the .09 change was to reduce allied micromanagement of carriers, but now I have to micromanage the patrol groups as well so I have to micromanage 3 times as many counters T1 going to convoy lane, T2 being useful and T3 back to port. I can't afford to buy oilers every turn as well as more escorts and MM than I have ever needed before.


+1


Turn 1....
Grab a patrol + CV group plop them in the North Atlantic.
Grab a patrol + CV group plop them in the South Atlantic.
Now you don't have to touch this for 3 turns.

Turn 4...
Swap out what you can

Better than each turn having 2-3 fleets chasing subs around the map.


It doesn't work like that because G players just move their subs 24 hexes and get out of the ASW ships without diminution of their ability to sink MMs. They even get to attack if they go over 24 hexes

Are you sure the ASW ships are good for 3 turns? My understanding is:


T1 they move to shipping lane so have no effect
T2 they can help the escorts if the G player forgets to move his subs out of range
T3 as T2
T4 they don't have any fuel left so presumably can't help the escorts


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Post #: 32
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/15/2021 10:16:19 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

This data runs the same in all the games we played. The balance is realizing how much to commit to the BoA


Up to a point Lord Copper (though you may not know this english expression) The balance is not the average result (I have assumed this is reasonable) but the excessively wide difference between games in which the commitment to the BOA are the about same on both sides, and not due to tactical differences and therefore not caused by investment decisions.The game before the one I reported was also .09 and vs the same appointment and the uboats just got hammered losing almost as many strength points as I did MMs

This disparity doesn't happen in the other aspects of the game as far as I can see.



< Message edited by sillyflower -- 1/15/2021 10:17:51 PM >


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Post #: 33
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/15/2021 11:05:36 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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My uboats never get sunk till 1942-1943. So maybe they are doing something wrong.

There is also the long term ROI of the BoA. So say you move ships to X land near Y coast close to German shores. Now they have to move further out to avoid them. It means 1 turn they have at 1/2 attack, then it takes 2 turns to go back home. That is a less effective sub.

There is a ton of depth to the sub war.

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Post #: 34
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/16/2021 9:12:23 AM   
sillyflower


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Sorry Alvaro, but I don't understand your point in relation to either of my last 2 posts. I don't even know what ROI means either.

The 2 very different outcomes I referred to were with the same opponent and both of us using the same tactics, so it wasn't a question of anyone doing something 'wrong' in 1 game

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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

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Post #: 35
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/16/2021 10:28:57 AM   
ncc1701e


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ROI = Return On Investment

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Post #: 36
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/16/2021 7:00:20 PM   
baloo7777


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I was going to post some screenshots of my AI game (running concurrently with my 2 PBEM games to try a strategy before the PBEM game) but decided not too. Up until early spring 1940 I was happy with the way things were going for my Axis subs in BOA... then in the time period of late June -early July 1940, 3 of my subs took 2 damage pts each and 1 took 1 pt damage in two consecutive turns in North and South Atlantic. They were all on their 2nd turn at sea and both routes had (AI) 10 escorts and 3 or 4% ASW bonus. All subs are now drydocked and have to wait as I am in the middle of the invasion of France and need to burn supply trucks and replace losses (I give AI high bonuses 10% and 15% to help simulate a tough opponent using supply trucks also).
Bottom line, my experience with the way the beta 10u3 sub/asw works (both AI/PBEM) is that it has too many wild swings. I know this is not a historical simulation, but something that depicts the UBoats starting with tactics/abilities (through summer-fall 1940 at least) that are worth the exchange they will take in damage later in the war would be better than this. I think I liked it better when the Allies chased UBoats with Carriers. When I finally finish these PBEM games started with the beta 10u3, I plan on going back to 1.091 official, and hope the new sub rules don't go into the next official that comes out. It is not due to inexperience... my subs go in groups of 2 and in raider mode, and after the initial 2 OP spent to get from Germany to the North/South Atlantic convoy routes, never go farther than what 1 OP takes them (24 hex max). Also, the damage to my AI subs was done right after I upgraded to 1941 sub tech (in summer 1940). My fault for going with the beta to start my pbem experience back up after many months away.

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Post #: 37
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/16/2021 8:16:45 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Sorry too many poker terms I am used to. ROI is commonly used in poker.

Let's give some example of different results with same amount of builds.
Germany has 6 boats on the map. UK has 22 escorts.

If the Germans stack 3 and 3 in 2 lanes and the UK has their 10+ and 10+ you will see a very averaged result.
If the Germans stack sets of 1 subs spread of 6 zones and the UK focuses on 2 zones you will have a different result.
If the Germans stack 3, 1, 1, 1, and move them around making the UK guess which zone has the 3 sub to place the max escorts you will also have a different result.

Then these results depends on the ranges of the zones, how many oilers are used, and when the German pulls back a sub that is damaged. Some players risk that 3 strength sub. I never do.

So from above you can have the same subs and escorts with different stacking and positioning with different results.

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Post #: 38
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/16/2021 9:22:25 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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To play this game of deception that you propose, it would be very useful if the SS could park on a convoy route without being forced to attack it.
A third "sleep" mode would be great, that 1 single SS attacks a protected route with 10 ecorts seems like suicide.

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Post #: 39
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/18/2021 5:57:50 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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It just depends on how lousy your luck is with BoA. Mine luck is really lousy.

Results for 1939-1941 BoA in my current mirror match.
As Axis I built 9 subs which were all in operation by June of 41.
My Axis opponent built 6 U-Boat units.

My Axis results: Killed 160 Merchants and 21 Escorts. Lost 92 subs.
My Allied results: Lost 170 Merchants and 26 Escorts. Axis lost 46 subs.

Major cause of difference seems to be when the subs are mine the opponent gets a number of turns with really high hit numbers (4+).
When I am Allies I don't see any of these high hits.

I apparently need to practice my dice rolling.

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Post #: 40
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/23/2021 12:53:18 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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After a lot of PBEM I keep learning, BoA really works fine, I was the problem, my previous comments were not correct.

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Post #: 41
RE: Sub vs ASW early years BOA - 1/23/2021 5:05:26 PM   
baloo7777


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

I apparently need to practice my dice rolling.


+1

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Post #: 42
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