Attacking fleets in port

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Attacking fleets in port - 1/9/2021 11:16:03 AM

squatter

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Skimming the manual looking for info about when one fleet attacks another in port but cannot find details...

What is the deal here?

Is defending fleet penalised for being in port? And/or does shore battery help defend the fleet?

Obviously certain ports would be almost literally impossible to attack with surface fleets irl - Gibraltar/Portsmouth/Kiel etc

Edit - OK, I now see this: "Ports have defenses equal to their port size value with a minimum of 3 defense which can fire upon enemy fleets attacking the port'

So what does this mean in practice? Can the Germans hide the Bismark in St Nazaire safe in the knowledge that the port has 10 'defence' value, or will it be a sitting duck on its own with only 10 'defence' value?

At what point does the size of a port make surface attack suicide? 5? 8? 9? Never?

Can subs be attacked in port?

< Message edited by squatter -- 1/9/2021 11:29:48 AM >

Post #: 1

RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/9/2021 3:09:10 PM

ncc1701e

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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

Is defending fleet penalised for being in port?

Fleet in a port does not defend.

quote:

Can the Germans hide the Bismark in St Nazaire safe in the knowledge that the port has 10 'defence' value, or will it be a sitting duck on its own with only 10 'defence' value?
At what point does the size of a port make surface attack suicide? 5? 8? 9? Never?

Can't answer these two ones.

quote:

Can subs be attacked in port?

Yes

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Post #: 2

RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/10/2021 11:58:14 AM

squatter

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I ran a few tests with UK surface fleets attacking Italian navy in Taranto

Observations:

1 Surface fleets attacking fleets in port level 9 don't seem to suffer massively from port defences, even port 9. This presumably means you can attack enemy fleets in port in places like Gibraltar/Kiel/Portsmouth that really should be suicide due to port defences

2 Surface fleets can attack subs in port. Should this be possible?

3 Fleets in port which are attacked still get to evade the attacking fleet as if they were at sea. What is this simulating?

In the actual war, what examples of surface fleets attempting to attack other naval forces while in a well-defended port do we have? I can't really think of any. Of course the attack on the French fleet at Oran, but the V French and UK were not at war at the time, hence the fleet was caught unprepared.

My suggestion would be to really beef up the impact of port defences on attacking fleets, to the point that attacking a port level 9 would be near-suicidal.

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Post #: 3

RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/11/2021 9:21:56 PM

Lascar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter

I ran a few tests with UK surface fleets attacking Italian navy in Taranto

Observations:

1 Surface fleets attacking fleets in port level 9 don't seem to suffer massively from port defences, even port 9. This presumably means you can attack enemy fleets in port in places like Gibraltar/Kiel/Portsmouth that really should be suicide due to port defences

2 Surface fleets can attack subs in port. Should this be possible?

3 Fleets in port which are attacked still get to evade the attacking fleet as if they were at sea. What is this simulating?

In the actual war, what examples of surface fleets attempting to attack other naval forces while in a well-defended port do we have? I can't really think of any. Of course the attack on the French fleet at Oran, but the V French and UK were not at war at the time, hence the fleet was caught unprepared.

My suggestion would be to really beef up the impact of port defences on attacking fleets, to the point that attacking a port level 9 would be near-suicidal.

I agree, major naval bases generally would have strong defenses against a naval attack e.g. Singapore, Gibraltar, Kronstadt, etc.

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 1:30:22 AM

AlvaroSousa

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The ships do fire as does the port value. I was thinking of just making size 5+ ports protected.

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Post #: 5

RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 2:44:47 AM

Lascar

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That's a good idea.

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 10:57:30 AM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The ships do fire as does the port value. I was thinking of just making size 5+ ports protected.

I would suggest keep port defence as it is for 4 or less size ports (all ports have some kind of shore defence). Currently in-game, this is a very minor effect anyway.

Then I would think about doubling the defence of ports 5-7 size, and tripling those of size 9 to make them very serious propositions to attack.

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Post #: 7

RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 1:48:35 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I decided to disable attacking ports 5+. There is a very specific reason why that is very gamey. It simplifies this gamey situation with a simple solution.
All small ports will have a defense of 5 naval guns straight up to keep it simple representing minefields and coastal batteries

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Post #: 8

RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 2:10:22 PM

squatter

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Works for me.

Prevents something that never happened even once (AFAIK) during the war, so good solution.

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 3:06:12 PM

AlvaroSousa

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It did happen.

Dakar with the RN.
Scapa Flow with a u-boat.

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Post #: 10

RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 3:55:41 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

It did happen.

Dakar with the RN.
Scapa Flow with a u-boat.

True, but I think you're proving my point with these two:

Dakar was an attack on a relatively minorly defended port, and was relatively disastrous for the Allies thanks to shore batteries.

And Scapa flow was a) was an audacious single infiltrator sub, not surface fleet, and b) straight after this Scapa Flow's defences (which hadn't been well maintained) were boosted to make such an attack impossible afterwards.

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 4:09:36 PM

Nirosi

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There was also an attack on La Spezia with a serious force in 1941 I think but seems to have done little damage.

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 5:42:22 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

There was also an attack on La Spezia with a serious force in 1941 I think but seems to have done little damage.

I've never heard of this - not sure this happened?

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 6:19:01 PM

Nirosi

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Here : https://codenames.info/operation/grog-i/

It was La Spezia and Genoa actually.

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/12/2021 10:57:35 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Here : https://codenames.info/operation/grog-i/

It was La Spezia and Genoa actually.

Thank you, never heard of that. Another example of how surface fleets are ineffective attacking ports.

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/13/2021 3:58:36 PM

battlevonwar

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You guys totally forgot The Pacific.. Truk and Pearl .. History has nothing to do with it what I think does is the size of the game map and the range of some of the Naval Units being able to sortie in out of nowhere and blast a defender without any relation or notice even if you could scout. Alexandria lost Battleships to small Sabotage, Tirpitz was blasted in Port by massive aerial bombs. Just getting to Gibraltar cost the Allies countless ships to Axis Air Power. I don't much fear air power any more in the game with Surface Ships.(a sinking by planes or submarine is very rare)

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RE: Attacking fleets in port - 1/13/2021 6:53:41 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

You guys totally forgot The Pacific.. Truk and Pearl .. History has nothing to do with it what I think does is the size of the game map and the range of some of the Naval Units being able to sortie in out of nowhere and blast a defender without any relation or notice even if you could scout. Alexandria lost Battleships to small Sabotage, Tirpitz was blasted in Port by massive aerial bombs. Just getting to Gibraltar cost the Allies countless ships to Axis Air Power. I don't much fear air power any more in the game with Surface Ships.(a sinking by planes or submarine is very rare)

The discussion is about surface fleets attacking ports, not aerial attack.

Clearly aerial attack of ports - Taranto/Pearl/Truk/Tirpitz etc could be very effective.

Surface attacks on ports, however, extremely ineffective, bordering on insane. That's the point being made.

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Post #: 17