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A list of gripes. - 1/8/2021 8:26:25 AM   
Galaxy227


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Joined: 12/1/2020
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Without anything better to do in quarantine, a month ago I had decided that I'd return to Distant Worlds—only this time I'd be recording each and every "gripe" I would come across throughout the course of the game. Today I've finished that game, and consequently my list of gripes. I will be presenting my list in this thread.

Now, before you and I each get into a heated debate pertaining to the legitimacy of my criticisms, I would like to say that I've made an extra effort to refrain from critiquing the creative direction of Distant Worlds. For instance: even if I absolutely hate that point defense weapons are incapable of countering missiles, this very fact is the result of the development team's depiction of their game's reality, and therefore I should have no say in whether or not such fact should be. In other words, my list of "gripes" exist solely as constructive criticism for the developer's vision of Distant Worlds. My list serves to enhance the developer's hard work, not completely reconstruct it.

Lastly, I am fully aware that the release of Distant Worlds 2 is right around the corner. I know development is too far along for the developers to make any drastic changes. I am aware my list likely holds little to no significance in the grand scheme of things. Nonetheless, let us begin...

I will organize each "gripe" under larger categories, and further designate each as either major or minor. Otherwise, the following list is in no particular order:



User Interface: (And no, I don't care how attractive it looks)



• (Minor): A search function for the Message History screen. Oftentimes I find myself curious about various empires, planets, or battles, but hardly have a way to look into their history.

• (Minor): A search function for entities. Borrowing from previous games developed by Paradox Interactive, a search function for entities throughout Distant Worlds would do wonders. Occasionally I find myself needing to find various systems or planets, only to be met with the incredibly time-consuming task of scanning throughout the galaxy for what I need. For a game so vast, it's essentially a requirement.

• (Minor): A screen that summarizes the known ships and their total firepower for each empire in any given system. This is self-explanatory.

• (Minor): The ability to highlight the location of each individual ship within any given fleet. This feature would effectively remove the player's need to play hide-and-go-seek with their scattered ships.

(Major): Categorize the ships presented in selected fleets by their respective ship design. Currently when a player selects a fleet, the ships within said fleet are presented in a seemingly random order in the Selection screen. This makes it impossible to quickly glance at a fleet and understand exactly what ships it's comprised of. Instead, the player is forced to first find and then individually count out however many "Executor-class" frigates are in his fleet. To make matters worse, ships of the same class share the same image, so they appear identical in the Selection screen regardless of their design. It is far too difficult to get a comprehensive understanding of any given fleet. This is a major flaw.

(Major): The Fleet screen (F12) should list the amount of ships per each ship design in any given fleet. This feature expands on my previous gripe, and I think it would greatly improve the player's quality of life in regards to organizing their fleets. For example, a player could scroll through their fleet screen, examine an individual fleet, be presented with four "Executor-class" frigates, understand he wants five per fleet, and then move on to construct his fifth frigate. No where did he have to manually perform a head-count of a specific ship design. No where did he have to differentiate between tiny, pixelated images in a Selection screen. This would be a significant improvement.

• (Minor): Show the automation status of fleets in the Fleet screen (F12).

(Major): The ability to filter ships by their respective ship design in the Ships and Bases screen (F11). Again, I find Distant Worlds' utter lack of synchronization between the UI and a player's ship designs an absolute failure. This wouldn't be so bad if Distant Worlds hadn't put such an emphasis on designing ships, but that simply is not the case.

• (Minor): Allow multiple Ship Design screens open at once for quick comparisons.

• (Minor): Display the difference between the total possible energy consumption value (excluding static energy consumption) and the excess energy of a ship in the Ship Design screen. This will stop the player from having to find the sum of all energy consumption and subtract it from the excess energy output of their ship. My brain would prefer not to do basic arithmetic every time it wants to know whether or not a ship is energy-efficient.

• (Minor): A toggle in the Ship Design screen that highlights which components a ship already has at least one of. This feature would work to separate the haves from have-nots, removing the late-game headache of trying to figure out whether a ship design has the "countermeasures" component in a list of well over one hundred ship parts.

• (Minor): The ability to highlight known pirate colonies and facilities on the map. While trying to wipe out a specific pirate faction, I kept finding more of their colonies and facilities throughout the galaxy. It would be helpful if there were a toggle that simply highlighted known pirate worlds and facilities, and even more so if I could filter it by pirate factions. And no, the Galaxy Map screen (G) does not already do this.



Ship Orders & Empire Management:



(Major): Let's talk about construction ship queues. Firstly, when a construction ship with a build queue dies, its queue should be redistributed throughout the rest of the player's construction ships, effectively preventing build queues from being lost, and no longer forcing the player to backtrack on re-queueing fifteen different mining bases. Secondly, the player desperately needs the ability to rearrange construction ship queues. Time and time again I've found myself in need of a spare construction ship, have upwards of twenty at my disposal, yet still end up building a new one to avoid overwriting my existing construction ship queues. For instance, imagine my capital ship is left without a hyperdrive. Again, I have plenty of existing construction ships, but somehow I am still more willing to build a new one rather than redirect any that already exist—simply because I'd rather not overwrite their fifteen-order-long queue and have to backtrack on micro-managing mining bases. Even an effortless "push order to front of queue" button would go a long way with minimizing the cluster that is queues in Distant Worlds. Although I understand the impact of queues on the overall gameplay of Distant Worlds is minimal, it was still one of the more irritating gripes for me, and therefore I've designated it as a "major" gripe.

• (Minor): The ability to exempt specific ships within a fleet from receiving fleet orders. For example, one ship needs refueling. Another needs repairs. I don't currently need either blockading my enemy's capital, but I'd still prefer for them to stay organized within their fleet.

• (Minor): The ability to designate the exact percentage of Caslon and Hydrogen each resupply ship should reserve their cargo capacity for. It drives me mad that when using only one fuel source, 50% of my resupply ship's cargo capacity is simply wasted.

(Major): Allow players to manage which resources should be exported and to which empires.

• (Minor): Allow players to manage which species should lawfully be able to migrate/immigrate and to which empires.



Improvements to Existing Game Mechanics:



(Major): An overhaul of map modes. The big, bustling galaxies within Distant Worlds demand easily accessible, well-presented information to be at the fingertips of the player. A great method of presenting information in grand strategy games is map modes. Distant Worlds has already taken a jab at precisely this, where the Galaxy Map screen (G) fills the role of all the player's map-related needs—at least in theory. However, it's fairly limited in its size and scope (literally, the map is small and strains the eye), and only offers the most essential information to the player. First and foremost, I'd argue the Galaxy Map screen should be completely integrated into the actual "playing galaxy" itself. There's hardly a reason for the player to mess around with a separate screen, especially when some map modes can already be viewed within the "playing galaxy" (i.e. potential colonies, scenic locations, & research locations). Presenting all map modes on the "playing galaxy" would provide a much more seamless experience for the player. My second suggestion is simply more map modes. All of the information displayed in the Diplomacy screen (F5) (such as total firepower, total GDP, tax revenue, population, diplomatic relations, reputation, etc...) would be so much easier to digest if presented through the use of map modes. The player's ability to read the state of the galaxy would greatly improve; no player will miss scrolling through the large lists of empires, interpreting oodles' worth of numbers, and juggling those many numbers between the many empires—all while trying to desperately paint a picture of what the [redacted] is going on. Distant Worlds could certainly use some love in its map-mode department.

• (Minor): A new screen that measures the trade volume of each planet throughout the galaxy, coupled with statistics on each empire's share of said volume at each planet. I feel as though this would be a worthwhile addition to Distant Worlds, considering the complexity of the game's economy, and would serve to improve the player's understanding of wealth distribution throughout their galaxy.

(Major): Record more history and have it be more easily accessible to the player. Whether it be graphs recording the value and supply of resources, or the recorded date and location of a single ship's construction, I want my galaxy to have a greater sense of history. The overarching goal of Distant Worlds is to simulate a living, breathing galaxy. Nothing should live or breathe without the passing of time; an epic is only as profound as the events which unfolded throughout. My most recent Distant Worlds game created an expansive, detailed, and truly vast galaxy, ripe with battles, stories, peoples, and more. It was all so extraordinarily fun and fascinating to experience, yet painfully difficult to reflect upon and savor. When the game finally came to an end, I felt as though my universe of history slipped out from under me, lost to the stars indefinitely. This gaping hole is distasteful to the soul. Give me history or give me death.

(Major): The addition of any game mechanic that works to detract from the current state of fleet battles, where the player throws their giant "fleet ball" at the enemy's giant "fleet ball." The player should be encouraged to make tactical decisions before and throughout any given battle. Allow me to propose a suggestion: assuming the avoidance of more micro-management is of importance, perhaps my suggestion of "fleet behaviors" would be a safe solution. For instance, the player could define specific fleet parameters, such as engagement ranges (long, medium, point-blank), fleet formations (arrowhead, column, line, echelons, etc.), fleet density (tight, moderate, loose), and other options that would give the player a sense of tactical control without necessarily requiring a great deal of micro-management. I understand that this suggestion is by far the most aggressive, and certainly aims to "reconstruct" the current state of Distant Worlds, however I strongly feel that space battles lack a certain "something" and are one of the weaker aspects of the game.

< Message edited by Galaxy227 -- 1/8/2021 8:50:51 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/8/2021 8:28:34 AM   
Galaxy227


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That's my list of gripes. All things considered, Distant Worlds is a spectacular game. Its ambitions are broad and its mechanics have depth. The sheer scope of Distant Worlds pales most other games in comparison. This game is no doubt the Dwarf Fortress of its genre, and in my opinion, unmatched in the experience it provides. I look forward to the long-awaited sequel of Distant Worlds: Universe, Distant Worlds 2, and wish the developers' days be good to them in their journey ahead.

Feel free to compliment or criticize my thoughts above.

< Message edited by Galaxy227 -- 1/8/2021 8:29:51 AM >

(in reply to Galaxy227)
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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/8/2021 9:49:08 AM   
arvcran2

 

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Bravo! This is an excellent post. I'll come back to it again and comment on some elements of minor gripes which have some work arounds. I just wanted to give you some feed back on a well organized and presented info!

(in reply to Galaxy227)
Post #: 3
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/8/2021 1:25:17 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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Have you looked at my mod? It addresses a few issues you have. Specifically...

0 Point defense and beam weapons can shoot down missiles, except in your rear arc where the engine interfears with targeting. I made this to prevent "kiting", which I hate.

1 A search function for every ship, base, planet, star and pretty much any other stellar object that has a name.

2 On the ship design screen, clicking on a component on your ship automatically selects the same component in the long list of ship parts.

3 Furball battles: With increased hyperspace exit ranges fleets exit in a more scattered manner which results in more 1 on 1 battles and no more furballs.

Some of your other gripes sound like interesting things that could probably be fixed. I just don't know if anyone will still be playing the game six to nine months from now. (I'm pretty sure I will be though).


< Message edited by RogerBacon -- 1/10/2021 10:33:07 PM >


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(in reply to arvcran2)
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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/8/2021 1:42:54 PM   
Hyperion1


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I am globally agree with all mention grips:

My own grips would be:

IA in general: don't allow it to cheat (it's my main concern in the game), but improve the IA for avoiding a not player empire to not develop at all.

Diplomacy and spy:
-stop the AI to constantly start wars and then stop them immediately.
-AI empire must be in general more stable and loyal in their behavior
-About pirates make them more useful for protecting an empire
-Bases and colonies within another empire influence have a too high negative impact. It happened many times I prefer destroyed a base after that the AI colony influence distance grown and encompass my base, because of the negative influence. In fact I don't know why there is a negative impact at all, in fact it could be positive if free passage and also free, build trade, are made. In many science fiction stories, we saw empires sharing the same main system.
-About the research exchange, and also research theft, I think that's too easy to exchange, for me it could give a big buff to the research completion but not give it totally instantly (when an empire gets a new technology, they still need to make some R&D for making it useable within the empire). That's why I would a prefer a system that give, for example, 1 year of research boost against less money. Like that the empire profiting of the boost would need to focus on this research for some months. For the theft, more than one mission would be needed for ends the puzzle faster. Also a race specific research is really too easy to give.
-Improve the exchange system by adding the option to exchange ships colonies and base when an AI makes a proposal. Currently, it's locked, and we can only give research or money. Also, I want to be able to look out for see which base he talk about and want to get when he proposes to get a base or a colony.
-Make the possibility to propose a humanitarian accord, for example be able to send transport to a wounded colony for sending medicals supplies.
-Be able to send troops on an ally colony for reinforcing their defenses.
-Be able to make the proposition to build an embassy on another empire's planet.
-Be able to build and sell ship base as an accord between another empire and us.
-About spying, have a better control on how our empire is protected, be able to use troops or ships for improve the security of a colony or base. Be able to send a spy on a specific colony or base for protecting it.

Research and Development:
-Make the research system more interesting by making it dependent of specific events and layout. For example an empire working on gravity weapons would benefit to have a buff by have a research base near a black hole. Globally with the research trade and theft, all research are ended too fast.


Ship management and design, in more of what is quoted upper:
-Lack of fuel in all design, the game is very hard to play because of that. I understand, that's not logical to have a fleet cross the whole galaxy, but in that case improve resupply ship behavior for easier the refueling on them.
-Minor problem on the behavior of ships, like the ship constructor, unable to build a base around a black hole. Or ship that don't stop to move even if we ask them to stay where they are. Sometime also a fleet that refuse to attack because of the power difference.
-Need to be able to give a chain of order for example; retrofit here, refuel here, then move here and waiting for order
-Be able to don't allow civil ships to move to a specific place. For example we see a huge AI fleet moving to one of our planets.
-When we make a new design, I want the AI to continue to use it and update it with same components type, I want also to be able to have more than one design for each ship type and choose the % built. Currently, we need to micromanage it because the AI come back to a standard design every time.
we need to have a better control on how the AI retrofit our ship and base, currently if we let it do what it want, it's the ruin of our empire.

Game mechanic:
-About the fuel, reduce greatly the consumption when the ship stand, orbiting.
-about the trade, make it more clear and also give the option for an higher cost to use alternative resource, it happened lot of time to me, to be totally stuck because of lack of carbon fiber, and AI empire hadn't this resource (with the cheat they could still build as they want but that's another problem, already quoted).
-Include in standard games the race specific goals.

Interface option:
-In option be able to control the screen size and definition.
-be able to have keymapping for use specific selection type, for example select all military ships, all military ships on the screen, all military ships idle, etc. for civil ships or colony ships or specific base or colonies. Use Shift for add order in the list and when pressing shift while selecting a unity, have highlighted and in transparency the path and all things built on the path. (like in Total Annihilation or supreme Commander).


That's all it grips me, but on the modding forum I made a subject that it talks of all it could improve the game, new components type and mechanics.


(in reply to arvcran2)
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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/10/2021 6:28:24 PM   
arvcran2

 

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Before I comment on your original post I'll mention that the most important featrues missing for me are:

1. (Synchroniztion and planning for the future)

Estimated time of arrival (ETA) or more specifically exact DWU arrival time (DWU-AT) for things that are moving to a destination. Also a timer to initiate a planned move to a destination based on an arrival time, or a group synchronized arrival destination based on a response plan, so that we can synchronize efforts.

2. (Augmented search and locate tools) mentioned in your list

Ability to search for any known/scouted and named entity, including last sighted. Document coordinates for DWU ... ie ability to describe a destination using a Universal Universe Locator (UUL). (I'll forgo last sighted to lower CPU demand and increase playability if needed ;) ) (How about having any name be a link to its location?)

3. (Resource transportation management system) mentioned in your list

Some kind of reporting mechanism as to where a faction's resources are. Where resources are going for what purpose as a snap shot reporting mechanism (obviously done in stop time). Some kind of policy override or manual override on specific instances or conditions.

4. (Quality filtration on reporting)

Example: show me a list of resource x with minimum y% deposit; show me a list of colonizable planets/moons with minimum size and, or quality.

5. (Secondary selection method) *important*

While using the in game *map* and cursor pointer is convenient there are many instances that cause selection to be ambiguous or misleading. Since action menus are based on focused item class this becomes a very important issue. One idea is a selection focus popup menu when selection is ambiguous.

6. (Optional Configurable Auto-pause conditions)

In order to allow a player to respond to events in event congestion times there needs to be a way of stopping time to look at the notifications or change view. One in particular is the event notification window filling up. Would be nice to have a means to halt/continue just to be able to read them!

Fleet order completion notification should be added. In fact any thing that has orders should be able to be configured to generate a notification when the order is completed. Wakeup upon enemy sighting would be nice ... when attacked is some times too late :).


7. (Energy Consumption Test/Verification Simulation in Design screen) similar mention in your list

Better to know how the thing behaves before putting it into practice.

8. (Proper troop transportation/transfer management): with DWU it is very cumbersome and frustrating to get the correct number of units onto the troop transports. There is no management of troop transfer on the troop screen. On the Ships and Bases Screen Troops tab, often troop transport ships that have ended the move to the planet or moon in question, do not appear in the list of ships to transfer to. Many times ship orders to load troops simply do nothing.

In general it would be great to have immediate specific feedback of a place order to verify that the correct action is being carried out.

---------

In your list I think this may be already implemented:

• (Minor): The ability to highlight known pirate colonies and facilities on the map. While trying to wipe out a specific pirate faction, I kept finding more of their colonies and facilities throughout the galaxy. It would be helpful if there were a toggle that simply highlighted known pirate worlds and facilities, and even more so if I could filter it by pirate factions. And no, the Galaxy Map screen (G) does not already do this.

The target list has this ... no?

I really agree on a lot of your mentions. Construction orders should be empire orders directed to to a construction ship and not lost. This would also provide a history reference with a status (queued, assigned with an Estimated DWU Time of Completion, building, suspended, completed) of in queue (prioritized and able to reorder priorities or cancel requests).


< Message edited by arvcran2 -- 1/12/2021 12:14:47 AM >

(in reply to Galaxy227)
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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 12:20:38 AM   
Retreat1970


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Some of these are good, and some are nitpicky.

I would much rather speculate once the beta is out and played. Right now we have no idea what DW2 will be like.

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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 12:32:45 AM   
arvcran2

 

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Oh, I was not aware we were discussing DW2 :).

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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 2:58:38 AM   
Retreat1970


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Sorry I just assumed since this forum hasn't had this much action in years and DW2 is imminent.

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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 3:26:14 AM   
Galaxy227


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Yea arvcran2, I had thought I made it clear that my list was about Distant Worlds: Universe. It isn't about DW2. Obviously it'd be damn near impossible for me to go on about a game that I've never played and hardly even seen, haha.

And +1 to all of your suggestions, it seems we both agree on most things. Personally, I'm hoping DW2 works to provide a more streamlined, "finished" experience than anything else. I know I shouldn't build any expectations though!

< Message edited by Galaxy227 -- 1/11/2021 3:34:00 AM >

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RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 7:11:43 AM   
Whiskiz

 

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quote:

AI in general: don't allow it to cheat (it's my main concern in the game)


I've seen you mention this issue elsewhere.

Have you been gaming long? Especially strategy games, especially deep 4X strategy games? Especially on higher difficulties?

AI cheating is in every one and is done for good reason.

If you can achieve competitive AI that doesn't cheat at all - you'll have done something very few people in the entire history of the gaming industry can develop, or afford to spend the years and finances on developing which even Triple-A companies don't do.

Which sucks because AI is the most important part (to the player anyway..) but still.

Barring major technological advancements that aren't yet mainstream and are still being actively developed by world leading companies - such as Googles dedicated AI team Deepmind developing their Starcraft 2 AI Alphastar, which is actually super interesting: https://youtu.be/VsJpWZj9jl0 (If the stupid thing is still auto timestamped somewhere in the vid, watch from the start) as well as the AI that beat the best players in DOTA 2 too.

So just so you know - your gripe is a random niche game hasn't employed cutting edge technology that most don't even know about, let alone have done either.

If you don't want AI to cheat, go normal or easy difficulty and enjoy facerolling - or Maybe ask Google if they could retrofit a version of Alphastar for DW2 for us



I have an all encompassing gripe: All the information obfuscation or flat lack thereof, especially on all the little oddities. I was just reading a DW Reddit thread and came across this:

"Mining and gas stations cost you money to set up, but after that they are maintained and controlled by the private sector."

Someone else made a correction:

"The game is a bit misleading about this, because you need the money in your account if you want to manually order a construction of one, but they actually don't cost you anything. The private sector pays for it."

Someone else made a correction yet again:

"No thats just in case the private sector fails then the government has adequate funds to cover the loss, like insurance.

Plsdonttellmethisgameisbroken>.<"

So everybody has a different idea about how this works and it turns out the private sector may have actually been a little more hands on than people initially thought.

It seems maybe we needed to be watching the private sector funds and spending on private assets according to their budget (mining stations, gas extraction stations and freighters) and that those are private in the first place. Putting down too many mining/gas stations than what the private sector can afford and you need to at least pay the upfront cost yourself, which you otherwise don't have usually have to.

Lack of info also made it hard to understand how to defend mining stations decently without paying a ton in maintenance, once there's miners and stuff all over the place. It turns out it's all private so again they pay the maintenance (as well as upfront costs if they can afford) so it's ok and actually intended to beef their defence up some because of it - while again keeping an eye on the private sector funds to make sure they can currently afford it all.

Which is cool and even deeper than we thought.

Other examples are things like:

-Apparently spaceports are mainly used to tell the AI where to store resources, so building one at every colony and/or too many can spread your resources thin and cost alot more in maintenance than you need to be spending.
-Apparently colonies trade even without a space structure above the planet, but you need a commerce center above to get your cut as well as other compartments for the bonuses like the medical.
-Apparently space structures on a planet shares storage is with the planet which has unlimited storage.

With those just above in mind - apparently it's only a good idea to build Spaceport where you want your resources for construction/repairing and especially refuelling, otherwise just build a Defence Base without construction yards, without cargo holds, maybe even without docking bays, but with commerce/medical etc bonus compartments.

Also - how many construction arms to construction plants to docking bays in a Spacestation should there be? Who made the research output screen and why do they hate us?

This level of detail, of how things work is great - but having that level of detail be so muddy? Is reeeeally not great. Hell everything i said above could be variably inaccurate due to it all being conjecture also, at the end of the day.

And don't just "streamline" it all and wash your hands of it

P.S i'm not saying spoonfeed every small detail to us and tell us everything and what to do, how best to min max everything - just tell us how things work and let us draw our own conclusions and strategies from that info.

For example instead of "Only build Spacetations where you really need them because ____, build Defence Bases instead without ____ because _____" just have Galactopedia entries like:

"Spacestations' primary function is the distribution of all available resources, used for construction, repairing and refueling"
"Colonies trade with or without a space presence above their planet!"
"Colonies utilize their own mass, basically unlimited storage"
"Private companies pay for and run all resource collection facilities and transportation, unless unable to afford it"

Then let us draw our own conclusions and tactics from it. It's not in any way spoiling anything nor hand-holding or whatever, for any parties that may be concerned about those kind of things while still conveying the necessary information.

Otherwise as well as all the confusion - there's even more awesomeness going on under the hood that most people never end up knowing about.

< Message edited by Whiskiz -- 1/11/2021 2:21:07 PM >

(in reply to Hyperion1)
Post #: 11
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 5:21:21 PM   
Hyperion1


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Starting your counter argumentation by first ask how many long I play games, is maybe not a good approach.
Yes, I play video games and RTS/4X since 30 years. This information, obviously not feed the debate.

Next I played in easy and medium difficulty in DWU. If the AI already cheating at medium difficulty, there is a problem. In more it's not something without consequences, the AI can generate cash from nowhere, it can't get in negative. Its production never goes down.

In all other games I played, AI cheating happened in hard or extreme difficulty, and it still mirrored the general economy of the faction controlled by the AI.
For example in a RTS, when we destroy a resource source, the AI start to dig its storage and finish by have nothing left, if it can't recover this resource source, no matter the difficulty.

So, for the summary, I want the AI to stop to cheat not at "deadly very hardcore pro-gamer level" but just at medium, in minimal.
I don't think DWU need 300 engineers specialized in developing AI deep-mind for that, maybe just make the AI empire slow down this production/colonization when in the negative with the cash, would be enough.

(in reply to Whiskiz)
Post #: 12
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 6:31:15 PM   
Retreat1970


Posts: 912
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quote:

With those just above in mind - apparently it's only a good idea to build Spaceport where you want your resources for construction/repairing and especially refuelling, otherwise just build a Defence Base without construction yards, without cargo holds, maybe even without docking bays, but with commerce/medical etc bonus compartments.


No. If you want the colony to build then they need a spaceport. A colony will not stockpile resources without a spaceport so you could be stuck building a defensive base forever. Design an SSP to the bare minimum at least.

I would still go here:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3497284

For most information.

(in reply to Hyperion1)
Post #: 13
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 9:06:39 PM   
Siddham

 

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Does the DWU AI cheat?
Can you explain how?

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 14
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/11/2021 10:36:03 PM   
arvcran2

 

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Adding another:

Proper troop transportation management: with DWU it is very cumbersome and frustrating to get the correct number of units onto the troop transports. There is no management of troop transfer on the troop screen. On the Ships and Bases Screen Troops tab, often troop transport ships that have ended the move to the planet or moon in question, do not appear in the list of ships to transfer to. Many times ship orders to load troops simply do nothing.

In general it would be great to have immediate specific feedback of a place order to verify that the correct action is being carried out. (I will edit my initial list I posted in this thread.

(in reply to Siddham)
Post #: 15
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/12/2021 7:23:56 AM   
Whiskiz

 

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From one of the prominent modders of DW:U and hopefully DW2 - RogerBacon:

"The factors for difficulty levels are ( 0.7, 1.0, 1.25, 1.6, 2.0) from easiest to hardest.
The player's war weariness, and corruption are multiplied by the difficulty factor.
The player's research rate, mining rate, population growth rate, targeting factor, countermeasure factor, colonyship build speed, and colony income factor are divided by the factor."

So it seems on Easy *you* get the cheats, on Normal there already is no cheating (modifier for or against you) and it appears that even when there are cheats - that it's penalties against you and not bonuses for the AI.

I think what you're saying if you didn't mean this, from where you say they never have to go into the red or have to deal with any of that - brings us back to AI not being able to be fully simulated especially in a 4X, where they realistically have to deal with every nuance of every mechanic themselves, dynamically, difficulty modifiers or not.

Though i'm sure if you sufficiently destroyed their stuff and stopped them from trading by blockading what they had left that they would indeed run out of money. They're just not bad enough to do so unless facing issues like the afore mentioned. I'm sure you've seen times where AI stopped expanding and is really weak and ends up doing nothing until destroyed.

If not, then exactly which 4X game did you come from where this is a thing? That you feel should then be like that here too? I could probably point out multiple mechanics the AI doesn't have to realistically/isn't fully simulated to deal with in that game.

Take the newly released Shadow Empire 4X from these publishers Matrix Games - the supply lines on roads are very detailed and while the AI has to have the roads for supply lines too, they don't have to deal with all the intricacies/can't run out of supply from mismanagement of them and basically have unlimited supply along them as long as they're not cut off. That's what Dastactic said anyway and he played/tested it before release. As he's probably doing with DW2 the lucky bugger

quote:

No. If you want the colony to build then they need a spaceport. A colony will not stockpile resources without a spaceport so you could be stuck building a defensive base forever. Design an SSP to the bare minimum at least.


I already mentioned "Spacestations' primary function is the distribution of all available resources, used for construction, repairing and refueling" which is not necessary to be able to do at every, single, planet you ever take over (especially when you colonize multiple planets in a system for the best example) even more so when it means thinning out resources for refuelling. Goodluck refuelling a large fleet at any one place.

How would you be stuck building a Defence Base when a Construction Ship would be doing it loaded with the materials? Just as it would be building a Spaceport instead. Unless i'm misunderstanding you. The only other thing i can think of that a Defence Base would need is maybe some docking bays - if they're needed to drop resources off for the colony for developing the colony and those bonuses, but i did find that assertion that said that colonies can trade without a structure built in space above it.

I've seen that source of info recently too, but i haven't gone through it. I've been thinking about playing DW:U again while waiting and will go through it then, but what always stops me is needing to trudge through all the information (Which doesn't cover nearly everything) and misinformation because i like to have a better understanding of exactly how things work and it's just not worth the effort.

Which ironically is the main issue and reason for my gripe in the first place.

< Message edited by Whiskiz -- 1/13/2021 2:46:20 PM >

(in reply to Hyperion1)
Post #: 16
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/12/2021 1:57:14 PM   
Hyperion1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: arvcran2

Adding another:

Proper troop transportation management: with DWU it is very cumbersome and frustrating to get the correct number of units onto the troop transports. There is no management of troop transfer on the troop screen. On the Ships and Bases Screen Troops tab, often troop transport ships that have ended the move to the planet or moon in question, do not appear in the list of ships to transfer to. Many times ship orders to load troops simply do nothing.

In general it would be great to have immediate specific feedback of a place order to verify that the correct action is being carried out. (I will edit my initial list I posted in this thread.


Yes I forgot to mention it as a gripes source, you are right.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiskiz

From one of the prominent modders of DW:U and hopefully DW2 - RogerBacon:

"The factors for difficulty levels are ( 0.7, 1.0, 1.25, 1.6, 2.0) from easiest to hardest.
The player's war weariness, and corruption are multiplied by the difficulty factor.
The player's research rate, mining rate, population growth rate, targeting factor, countermeasure factor, colonyship build speed, and colony income factor are divided by the factor."

So it seems on Easy *you* get the cheats, on Normal there already is no cheating (modifier for or against you) and it appears that even when there are cheats - that it's penalties against you and not bonuses for the AI.


I read many subjects from people complaining about DWU balance difficulty and acknowledged people answered that the AI economy not worked the same as the player economy, for example ships and troops maintenance were lifted for the AI.

< Message edited by Hyperion1 -- 1/12/2021 2:11:08 PM >

(in reply to arvcran2)
Post #: 17
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/12/2021 6:48:59 PM   
Retreat1970


Posts: 912
Joined: 11/6/2013
From: Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

Proper troop transportation management: with DWU it is very cumbersome and frustrating to get the correct number of units onto the troop transports. There is no management of troop transfer on the troop screen. On the Ships and Bases Screen Troops tab, often troop transport ships that have ended the move to the planet or moon in question, do not appear in the list of ships to transfer to. Many times ship orders to load troops simply do nothing.




Uncheck this box.

< Message edited by Retreat1970 -- 1/12/2021 6:50:19 PM >

(in reply to Hyperion1)
Post #: 18
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/12/2021 7:09:16 PM   
Retreat1970


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quote:

I already mentioned "Spacestations' primary function is the distribution of all available resources, used for construction, repairing and refueling" which is not necessary to be able to do at every, single, planet you ever take over (especially when you colonize multiple planets in a system for the best example) even more so when it means thinning out resources for refuelling. Goodluck refuelling a large fleet at any one place.

How would you be stuck building a Defence Base when a Construction Ship would be doing it loaded with the materials? Just as it would be building a Spaceport instead. Unless i'm misunderstanding you. The only other thing i can think of that a Defence Base would need is maybe some docking bays - if they're needed to drop resources off for the colony for developing the colony and those bonuses, but i did find that assertion that said that colonies can trade without a structure built in space above it.

I've seen that source of info recently too, but i haven't gone through it. I've been thinking about playing DW:U again while waiting and will go through it then, but what always stops me is needing to trudge through all the information (Which doesn't cover nearly everything) and misinformation because i like to have a better understanding of exactly how things work and it's just not worth the effort.


Resources are not finite. Last I looked they never ran out. A big fleet will empty even a homeworlds supply of gas. Now, luckily, we have baconmod and can order around freighters to deliver items to where we need it.

It doesn't make sense to have a constructor build a db on a colony when building a ssp will make the world useful and able to build themselves. Useful like storing gas or being able to repair and build. Again resources never run out so why not have all your planets stockpile?

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 19
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/12/2021 7:26:54 PM   
Galaxy227


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I'm going to drop in again here and say that I agree with Retreat on the above.

I've always heard people say that spaceports at every planet is a bad idea, but I fail to see exactly why a player wouldn't want to be able to repair/refuel/build at every planet. In my opinion, there are the only two instances where spaceports above every planet would be a poor decision: firstly, when the player's economy cannot handle the maintenance of so many spaceports, his balance will go negative. Secondly, when the player's empire hasn't been given a sufficient amount of in-game time to mine all the necessary resources to stockpile at all the spaceports, mass shortages will occur across most worlds as the private economy works to equally distribute them everywhere.

Both instances, maintenance and resource shortages, are player mistakes. Both instances simply require some patience from the player—allowing your economy to get to the point where it can actually handle another spaceport. Obviously, if you're prematurely spamming spaceports everywhere, you're going to have some problems. However, I can gauge fairly well when my economy is ready for another spaceport, and when it is, I almost always construct one. By mid to late-game, I have spaceports above every world. Never had a problem.

I personally think people just don't know how to measure their economic capability, and then they go hay-wall and build a bunch of spaceports, only to find that their economy crumbles under the weight of it all at once. To make matters worse, they are then convinced that the META is fewer spaceports, and go on to spread the word incorrectly throughout the forums.

< Message edited by Galaxy227 -- 1/12/2021 10:42:50 PM >

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 20
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/12/2021 9:29:32 PM   
Whiskiz

 

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I wonder what the difference between a Defence Base and Spacestation is at the end of the day, except for specific components. I guess when some people say you don't need a Spacestation but do a Defence Base, that really you just don't need construction components, cargo bays etc. You need some sort of structure above a planet as you still need the commerce/medical/entertainment components for planet bonuses (as well as defence of course)

I guess then that the debate would be more of what components/abilities you do or don't need every single planet.

quote:

It doesn't make sense to have a constructor build a db on a colony when building a ssp will make the world useful and able to build themselves.


I saw a second source assert that colonies don't need space structures above them to trade, so making every single planet be able to mainly just build colony ships and construction ships isn't important.

quote:

Useful like storing gas or being able to repair and build.


Do you need the ability to be able to build, refuel and repair from every single planet? Is being able to repair/refuel/build from 15 different places within your borders really that important?

That was my point all along, that Spaceports and/or construction/storage is still useful for say a waystation every set amount of distance away of course, every sector or so away - but do you really need to repair/refuel/build from a planet in a star, next to a star that has the ability to repair/refuel/build from, which has a planet a few stars away that has a solar system with 2 of your colonies both with the ability to repair/refuel/build from? Not really.

Does it make that much of a difference in retrospect when it comes down to a couple more components per station, on stations that are needed anyway for previous reasons? Not really. But that wasn't the issue, the issue was lack of information.

quote:

Again resources never run out so why not have all your planets stockpile?


You aren't taking into account actual input, output and (the lack of development of these) early game. You can mine infinitely, but from finite rng sources at finite rng distances at a finite rate. You also have to continuously fuel both your entire public and private sector, requiring both alot of fuel over time and larger amounts upfront in a single place (for fleets) which is the same for construction. As someone noted, players like to construct in waves - from the same place. It's also alot of extra time spent for Freighters, needing to transport every single resource to every single Spacestation above every single planet, time that could be better spent elsewhere. Though they might just construct more freighters which may not be a good thing, depending on their current income.

Is it a big difference? Probably not. Is the difference there? Yes. Are alot of people confused about how things like this work, even with the Galactopedia and online sources? Yes.

< Message edited by Whiskiz -- 1/13/2021 2:50:37 PM >

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 21
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/12/2021 10:01:57 PM   
Retreat1970


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quote:

I wonder what the difference between a Defence Base and Spacestation is at the end of the day


If you don't know, no one can help you.

quote:

I saw a second source assert that colonies don't need space structures above them to trade


No one ever said trading. Stockpiling and construction came up.

quote:

Do you need the ability to be able to build, refuel and repair from every single planet?


Yes. Why not?

quote:

It's also alot of extra time spent for Freighters, needing to transport every single resource to every single Spacestation above every single planet, time that could be better spent elsewhere


Elsewhere doing what? It's what they do with no human interaction.

I feel foolish for being sucked into an argument that doesn't matter. How each of us plays the game isn't right or wrong just relative. I have put so much time into DWU since Legion, literally hundreds of games, and how I play doesn't mean anything. I hope and pray there is an MP because then we can see who's strategy is better hehe!

/endthread (for me).

(in reply to Whiskiz)
Post #: 22
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/13/2021 7:23:00 AM   
arvcran2

 

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Hey Retreat1970, for the reference to the troop management automation section of the empire policy screen!

I have everything on manual so is that option not moot? Well no matter it is unchecked for my games in any case.

And yes I have spent much effort in fleet and transport loadouts experimentation to discover that somethings is not working properly or in the timely manner I would like. I have to issue the load order 2 to 3 times before all the troops are loaded. It is as though the game implementers want to slow the game time efficiency down as much as possible to give AI a better chance ;).

You are not sucked into argument, you are looking to defend the game. The only reason we discuss these things is because the game deserves to be discussed ;).

Stick around!

My play style is to disallow the clock or time to proceed and get things done as time efficiently as possible, or not, depending on whose time one is looking at. Many of my gripes are related to me lacking applying patience , or being too patient depending on how one looks at it.

So multiplayer is going to be somewhat completely different in the way we normally were allowed to control the passing of time :). Assuming it is a DW2 thing.

Despite our gripes I think we can all agree DWU is worth our time!

I'll add that the Commerce Centre is possibly what *attracts* the resource stockpiling. But the game may be hardcoded to the role of <size> space port over a colony and not the component, or the component over a colony. This is the lack of information concept or ambiguity of knowing the truth between conflicting information presented as fact mentioned above in the thread.



< Message edited by arvcran2 -- 1/13/2021 7:41:04 AM >

(in reply to Retreat1970)
Post #: 23
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/13/2021 1:50:16 PM   
RogerBacon

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hyperion1

I read many subjects from people complaining about DWU balance difficulty and acknowledged people answered that the AI economy not worked the same as the player economy, for example ships and troops maintenance were lifted for the AI.


Those people were misinformed. The AI also pays maintenance just like the player does. Even the independent empire pays but they start with Int.Max money so its a moot point for them.

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(in reply to Hyperion1)
Post #: 24
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/13/2021 9:36:38 PM   
Hyperion1


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Ok thanks you to make it clearer.

I still need to understand why AI empires can colonize every planet they want and have an huge army, but in least is something to control in less.

(in reply to RogerBacon)
Post #: 25
RE: A list of gripes. - 1/14/2021 1:17:45 PM   
arvcran2

 

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Perhaps this is more of an interest than a gripe but I have started a thread about demystifying the movement of material resources

I can't put links in yet, it is in the war room sub forum entitled Quest to understand the Material Resources Distribution

(in reply to Hyperion1)
Post #: 26
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