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Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/7/2021 10:50:07 PM   
newageofpower


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A private farm dome III uses a total of 39,200 population and generates 900 Private Food/100 Public Food for a total of 1000 food.

900 Private Food only feeds 90,000 population! This means over 43% of the private sector must be agricultural labor.

Even if you use hyperefficient hydroponics and turn on "allow emergency food" the Private Sector AI will do nothing but build private farms until it can feed all non-government employees from private sector production.

If you use open air farming and have max areal area (which takes decades of time in-game) you "only" need 23% of your private sector labor farming, but that's still absurd when IRL less than 1% of the population can feed the other 99%. Sure, I get early game the farmers are probably doing things manually, but if I can manufacture highspeed railroads and fusion power plants, I want to see less than 10% of my population in agriculture.

And max areal isn't always practical, it's pretty common to get a starting city sandwiched between mountain ranges and otherwise unfarmable terrain, not to mention non-habitable planets like moonscapes, deserts or lava worlds...

< Message edited by newageofpower -- 2/4/2021 5:12:27 AM >
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RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/7/2021 11:00:19 PM   
jimwinsor


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One of the first things I do when I conquer a city is to nationalize and close these Level 3 Ag Domes the AI loves to build.

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(in reply to newageofpower)
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RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 9:45:17 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: newageofpower

A private farm dome III uses a total of 39,200 population and generates 900 Private Food/100 Public Food for a total of 1000 food.

900 Private Food only feeds 90,000 population! This means over 43% of the private sector must be agricultural labor.

Even if you use hyperefficient hydroponics and turn on "allow emergency food" the Private Sector AI will do nothing but build private farms until it can feed all non-government employees from private sector production.

If you use open air farming and have max areal area (which takes decades of time in-game) you "only" need 23% of your private sector labor farming, but that's still absurd when IRL less than 1% of the population can feed the other 99%. Sure, I get early game the farmers are probably doing things manually, but if I can manufacture highspeed railroads and fusion power plants, I want to see less than 10% of my population in agriculture.

And that's not always practical, it's pretty common to get a starting city sandwiched between mountain ranges and otherwise unfarmable terrain, or non-habitable starts...

39,200 needed to feed 90,000 population seems perfectly fine.
Keep in mind the input/output ratio improoves with higher tier buildings.
And that the private buildings costs you 0 Energy and Water upkeep.
And hydroponics is inherently less efficient then open air farming.

You seem to be going from our current, modern figures of < 5% of population in agriculture.
You need to look at older figures/3rd world nations. At wich point 43% seems low compared to the up to 90%!
Half the worlds countries would LOVE to have a farming employment percentage as good as 43%!
Shadow Empires are in a lot of regards more like a 3rd World nation on a alien planet, then a fully industrialized society.

On Techlevel 3, you have not even figured out how to build tanks, RPG's and Personal armor yet.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/8/2021 9:46:49 AM >

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RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 9:56:21 AM   
Maerchen

 

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Your comment is valid, but so is the assumption that the crops gene-taylored to fit for that planets' biosphere during GR time wouldn't instantly die off.

The yield of GMO crops can be insane in comparison to normal plants. And we are speaking of several thousand years of progress and only a couple hundred years of apocalypse.

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RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 11:12:24 AM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maerchen

Your comment is valid, but so is the assumption that the crops gene-taylored to fit for that planets' biosphere during GR time wouldn't instantly die off.

The yield of GMO crops can be insane in comparison to normal plants. And we are speaking of several thousand years of progress and only a couple hundred years of apocalypse.

There is no indication such GMO plants existed. You are using either earth plants or local flora/fauna (if compatible with human biology), nothing heavily gene modded.

If such genemodding was possible, just about every planet can have a human livable atmosphere. Make it once, plant during colonisation, after 1k years you got a atmosphere.
Right now this process is limited to planting Earth Flora or Oxygen/Carbon based local flora.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 1/8/2021 11:20:43 AM >

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RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 11:14:34 AM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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The Commerce profile can increase private farm output by up to 120% as well (+40% from the very first Commerce regime feat, +80% from Corporations at Commerce-70).

EDIT: I originally also mentioned the governor relation bonus, but after review neither the governor relation bonus nor governor agriculture skill affects the portion of the food production that is given to the private economy.

< Message edited by Soar_Slitherine -- 1/8/2021 12:36:26 PM >

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RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 2:45:05 PM   
Arralen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine
... but after review neither the governor relation bonus nor governor agriculture skill affects the portion of the food production that is given to the private economy.

Wait ... what was my governor then doing agri skill rolls for in my recent game?
I only had that privatly owned dome in my city ...

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Post #: 7
RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 3:25:11 PM   
DeltaV112

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maerchen

Your comment is valid, but so is the assumption that the crops gene-taylored to fit for that planets' biosphere during GR time wouldn't instantly die off.

The yield of GMO crops can be insane in comparison to normal plants. And we are speaking of several thousand years of progress and only a couple hundred years of apocalypse.

High-yield crops would almost certainly have died off in the time since the collapse of the GR, such crops are designed to be more productive in the highly artificial environment of mechanized agriculture. They are not designed around natural competition and indeed, frequently crop breeding involves breeding against competition, for instance most modern wheat is bred to be short, making it less effective at competing for sunlight. One of the common GMO modifications to crops is for herbicide/pesticide resistance, which is entirely pointless in a world without industrial manufacture and use of such chemicals. Some crops have been modified to produce pesticides which would likely survive in wild varieties of the plants, but these varieties would be adapted to wild growth and certainly be far less productive.

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RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 4:05:55 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arralen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine
... but after review neither the governor relation bonus nor governor agriculture skill affects the portion of the food production that is given to the private economy.

Wait ... what was my governor then doing agri skill rolls for in my recent game?
I only had that privatly owned dome in my city ...

Private farms have a much smaller, separate food production value that they give to the state. This portion is affected by governor bonuses, but because it is so small, that doesn't make a huge difference to the overall food output.

(in reply to Arralen)
Post #: 9
RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 7:49:22 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arralen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine
... but after review neither the governor relation bonus nor governor agriculture skill affects the portion of the food production that is given to the private economy.

Wait ... what was my governor then doing agri skill rolls for in my recent game?
I only had that privatly owned dome in my city ...

The production of Private assets is split into private and publc parts (unless there is no tracking and use for the Private version, like IP).
Private Resources follow their own rules.

Skills generally only affect the Public (state) output of assets.

(in reply to Arralen)
Post #: 10
RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 10:36:45 PM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: newageofpower
Sure, I get early game the farmers are probably doing things manually, but if I can manufacture highspeed railroads and fusion power plants, I want to see less than 10% of my population in agriculture.

You seem to be going from our current, modern figures of < 5% of population in agriculture.
I specifically mentioned in my original post that early game farming being inefficient is realistic, but late game the private sector needing even 5% of the population to be agricultural workers is absurd when you've got fusion power and industrial robotization going on.

It looks like you don't even read the post you are responding to, just reacting with a kneejerk.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 11
RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 1/8/2021 11:37:25 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: newageofpower


quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd

quote:

ORIGINAL: newageofpower
Sure, I get early game the farmers are probably doing things manually, but if I can manufacture highspeed railroads and fusion power plants, I want to see less than 10% of my population in agriculture.

You seem to be going from our current, modern figures of < 5% of population in agriculture.
I specifically mentioned in my original post that early game farming being inefficient is realistic, but late game the private sector needing even 5% of the population to be agricultural workers is absurd when you've got fusion power and industrial robotization going on.


In the end, it can always just be a design affordance.
"Concerning the economy, things are modelled as if the Populaces were bigger than they actually are. One might raise an eyebrow at sometimes very small groups of people managing to build railroads, nuclear plants and huge factories."
If Farm workers would work to close to reality, the upgrades could be way to valuable (as compared to other upgrades). If a upgrade ever is a no-brainer, it is a bad upgrade - because there is never a choice between it and other upgrades.

(in reply to newageofpower)
Post #: 12
RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 2/4/2021 5:06:45 AM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
If a upgrade ever is a no-brainer, it is a bad upgrade - because there is never a choice between it and other upgrades.

Lasers is absurdly better than previous weapons, massively better than the same-tier Charged Gauss. Competitive MP games have been over because "welp that guy Ancient Archive'd Laser Rifles stupidly early, lets generate another planet instead of wasting any more time"

If you don't want a "suddenly OP" tech at all, you could make an "Agricultural Mechanization" Linear Technology under Economic Councilor where you get a sliding scale reducing both Private and Agricultural requirements by up to 99% at max, but having the downside of requiring 1% of the Food in IP and Oil (for State-Owned Public Farms) as additional inputs, the way Conventional Gun Optimization increases Ammo consumption along with Firepower.

< Message edited by newageofpower -- 2/4/2021 5:29:54 AM >

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Post #: 13
RE: Ridiculous Agricultural Labor Requirements - 2/4/2021 11:49:16 AM   
BlueTemplar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor
One of the first things I do when I conquer a city is to nationalize and close these Level 3 Ag Domes the AI loves to build.

Uh, aren't you wasting both your public and private credits by doing this, considering that your private industry will build new private farming as soon as they get funds for it, repeating the circle ?

Or are you suggesting that for some reason AI's private economy overbuilds agricultural assets ?

(in reply to newageofpower)
Post #: 14
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