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Contact status - 1/6/2021 1:45:43 PM   
1nutworld


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/13/2014
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Ok,

can someone help me out here? I know this is a relatively dumb question but if I have NO idea about what a contact is, other than it is "mobile" as opposed to a building.

How can I have any clue at ALL what it's "status" is. Unless I miss understand completely - the green bar over the "?" icon on the map indicates I have SOME SORT OF KNOWLEDGE of it, doesn't it? I know it's a mobile contact - but I can't determine if it is a SAM- a SSM - a Tank - a truck - a Humvee, then how can I know it is mobile? ONLY because I know it's not a building and thus it is "mobile"?


How can I know that whatever "IT" is. That it is undamaged as an example, without being able to know WHAT it is.

Obviously the unit - again whatever mobile unit it is - was detected by various means, and "observed"??? by the UAV that is patrolling the border on the left-hand side bottom of the screen.

But why should the observation not determine what the mobile unit is...yet know it is observed to be undamaged?






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by 1nutworld -- 1/6/2021 2:02:52 PM >


_____________________________

USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) 1990-1994.
Post #: 1
RE: Contact status - 1/6/2021 2:24:57 PM   
Twistedpretzel

 

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Quite a few variables, but generally if it has been detected with imaging sensors and not identified your asset just needs to get closer until it is identified. Another possibility for identification if you have ELINT capability would be if the contact radiates. Sometimes due to scenario constraints like exclusion zones or tactical constraints like you don't want to lose your asset, you won't be able to identify a contact until those issues have been resolved. Fog of war. Fortunately if it isn't radiating then it likely isn't an immediate threat. (Take that roll of the dice for what it is worth)

(in reply to 1nutworld)
Post #: 2
RE: Contact status - 1/7/2021 2:41:43 AM   
pbrowne


Posts: 147
Joined: 8/7/2020
From: Perth, Western Australia
Status: offline
Good questions.

Why does the strength bar for the detected, but unidentified thing, indicate no damage? What information would exist to indicate that status, without knowing what the mobile thing is??

Is it just an assumption in the CMO logic that unless a thing is known to be damaged, that it is undamaged?

Why is the identified thing regarded as mobile when it clearly shows as no bearing or speed?

< Message edited by pbrowne -- 1/7/2021 3:02:57 AM >

(in reply to Twistedpretzel)
Post #: 3
RE: Contact status - 1/7/2021 4:41:24 PM   
KnightHawk75

 

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Joined: 11/15/2018
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quote:

Is it just an assumption in the CMO logic that unless a thing is known to be damaged, that it is undamaged?

Not really.
When a contact has damage indicator it means at some point it was spotted with a eo\ir sensor, it's not necessarily accurate though if it was once spotted but hasn't been in awhile as it only has information from the last spotting, however no matter how aged it will be shown. For instance the contact 2 over to the east (the els system - spoiler) hasn't been picked up by the generic FLIR yet as there are no bars yet. While the ones with green bars have at some point in the past though in the screen shot not recently - just the AESA radar.

quote:

Why is the identified thing regarded as mobile when it clearly shows as no bearing or speed?

In the screen shot it does show last known course:0 and speed: 0; those would be "xxx" if completely unknown.
(the actual unit is pointed north and not moving in the scene)

Basically it appears to be a level 1 classification (from the Heron-TP's AESA), and the Heroin or something else at some past point it time had visual on it (and IR\EO sensors) adding the damage bar, likely the Heron's FLIR but only at spotting range not classification range since the target for whatever reason still is not classified. As a result basically you get the generic category (building,structure, mobile vehicle,etc) but you don't yet know what it really is yet because all you have is what the Eitan AESA long range 3rd surface radar is picking up and from what I can tell non-classification FLIR hit at some point. If you move in closer or higher I imagine the UAV's FLIR will eventually classify it further.

In fact in 1147.14 (per screenshot) I can not actually replicate the screen shot results, between the AESA pod active and on board FLIR it always picks up, and then quickly classifies the S-125m and Pansir units (even if remove the flir I get the classification + speed\heading by radar after 2 hits and correctly no green bar), flying at 12k feet+ anyway.

< Message edited by KnightHawk75 -- 1/7/2021 4:42:11 PM >

(in reply to pbrowne)
Post #: 4
RE: Contact status - 1/8/2021 1:16:12 AM   
pbrowne


Posts: 147
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From: Perth, Western Australia
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Wow. Thanks for the detailed clarification Knight! Just illustrates how complex modern operations are these days.

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 5
RE: Contact status - 1/8/2021 10:47:35 AM   
1nutworld


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/13/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75

quote:

Is it just an assumption in the CMO logic that unless a thing is known to be damaged, that it is undamaged?

Not really.
When a contact has damage indicator it means at some point it was spotted with a eo\ir sensor, it's not necessarily accurate though if it was once spotted but hasn't been in awhile as it only has information from the last spotting, however no matter how aged it will be shown. For instance the contact 2 over to the east (the els system - spoiler) hasn't been picked up by the generic FLIR yet as there are no bars yet. While the ones with green bars have at some point in the past though in the screen shot not recently - just the AESA radar.

quote:

Why is the identified thing regarded as mobile when it clearly shows as no bearing or speed?

In the screen shot it does show last known course:0 and speed: 0; those would be "xxx" if completely unknown.
(the actual unit is pointed north and not moving in the scene)

Basically it appears to be a level 1 classification (from the Heron-TP's AESA), and the Heroin or something else at some past point it time had visual on it (and IR\EO sensors) adding the damage bar, likely the Heron's FLIR but only at spotting range not classification range since the target for whatever reason still is not classified. As a result basically you get the generic category (building,structure, mobile vehicle,etc) but you don't yet know what it really is yet because all you have is what the Eitan AESA long range 3rd surface radar is picking up and from what I can tell non-classification FLIR hit at some point. If you move in closer or higher I imagine the UAV's FLIR will eventually classify it further.

In fact in 1147.14 (per screenshot) I can not actually replicate the screen shot results, between the AESA pod active and on board FLIR it always picks up, and then quickly classifies the S-125m and Pansir units (even if remove the flir I get the classification + speed\heading by radar after 2 hits and correctly no green bar), flying at 12k feet+ anyway.


Thanks for helping me understand! I really do appreciate the insight.

Sometimes I feel silly asking the questions that I do, but much to my surprise - other people, upon reading my questions, reveal that they too have wondered the very thing just haven't asked.


_____________________________

USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) 1990-1994.

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 6
RE: Contact status - 1/8/2021 12:32:27 PM   
c3k

 

Posts: 353
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That "detected by" bar on the right of your screenshot was a tool that took me a little while to learn how to use.

Once I started clicking on it (great when a contact has been spotted by several units/sensors), it has really expanded my knowledge of how various sensors work in-game.

(in reply to 1nutworld)
Post #: 7
RE: Contact status - 1/9/2021 7:17:27 PM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 1212
Joined: 11/15/2018
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@pbrowne - Indeed!
@1nutworld - Wasn't a silly question at all.
Thanks, I try where I can.

Also for reference the detection levels:

detection level: 1 - generic category aircraft\helo|fixed-structure|runway|building|mobile-vehicle|mobile personnel|Carrier|
SurfaceCombatant|submarine|biologic etc basically their db category codes. Contact is labeled generic bogey\skunk\fixed\goblin etc.

detection level: 2 - type: for ships,subs and aircraft it's their DB entry type code (fighter|bomber|AEW|etc), facilities are more murky, and it's determined by a couple of factors like if mobile and has mounts then it can depend on the mount's mobileunitcategory, otherwise it's determined by what's contained in the db entries actual name +\- some other variable like if it has weapons on it, failing all that generic category is used. Contact will change name to the generic type prefix identified SAM,Surveillance,FFG,DDG,CG,CVN,Armor,SSM,AAA,SSGN,SSM,SSK,UUV,etc

detection level: 3 - class: actual dbid of unit name, contact will change name to the generic name of the unit.

detection level: 4 - precise: you know everything, contact name changes to actual unit name on it's side.
(btw not everything can neccessarly be level 4'd in my experience. for instance most mobile units can't be id'd above 3, where as runway components get id'd to level 4 almost instantly after 1 or 2 quality radar hits.). The exception to this is "autodetectable" which is automatic level 4.

Contact always keep their detection level (unless of course the contact just ages out or is manually dropped) even if track is lost.
Things like speed\heading\alt|depth\side while like are sensor capability specific and not exactly tied to detection level, ie you can know what side something is on and it's speed heading and alt without knowing exactly what it is yet - depends on the gear involved.

(in reply to c3k)
Post #: 8
RE: Contact status - 1/11/2021 12:39:47 PM   
1nutworld


Posts: 335
Joined: 4/13/2014
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightHawk75

@pbrowne - Indeed!
@1nutworld - Wasn't a silly question at all.
Thanks, I try where I can.

Also for reference the detection levels:

detection level: 1 - generic category aircraft\helo|fixed-structure|runway|building|mobile-vehicle|mobile personnel|Carrier|
SurfaceCombatant|submarine|biologic etc basically their db category codes. Contact is labeled generic bogey\skunk\fixed\goblin etc.

detection level: 2 - type: for ships,subs and aircraft it's their DB entry type code (fighter|bomber|AEW|etc), facilities are more murky, and it's determined by a couple of factors like if mobile and has mounts then it can depend on the mount's mobileunitcategory, otherwise it's determined by what's contained in the db entries actual name +\- some other variable like if it has weapons on it, failing all that generic category is used. Contact will change name to the generic type prefix identified SAM,Surveillance,FFG,DDG,CG,CVN,Armor,SSM,AAA,SSGN,SSM,SSK,UUV,etc

detection level: 3 - class: actual dbid of unit name, contact will change name to the generic name of the unit.

detection level: 4 - precise: you know everything, contact name changes to actual unit name on it's side.
(btw not everything can neccessarly be level 4'd in my experience. for instance most mobile units can't be id'd above 3, where as runway components get id'd to level 4 almost instantly after 1 or 2 quality radar hits.). The exception to this is "autodetectable" which is automatic level 4.

Contact always keep their detection level (unless of course the contact just ages out or is manually dropped) even if track is lost.
Things like speed\heading\alt|depth\side while like are sensor capability specific and not exactly tied to detection level, ie you can know what side something is on and it's speed heading and alt without knowing exactly what it is yet - depends on the gear involved.


Hey man, that's a great breakdown on detection levels.

Thanks!


_____________________________

USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN-69) 1990-1994.

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 9
RE: Contact status - 1/11/2021 12:59:46 PM   
thewood1

 

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Just to reinforce what C3K said, when that detection info in the unit panel was introduced a few years ago, it was a huge advance in situational awareness. I don't know how we played anything with more than 100 units without it.

The three pieces I use are that detection tracker, the contact status dialog where radiation is noted, and a friendly units dedicated message log. That last is can be critical in figuring out who can see what.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 1/11/2021 1:11:07 PM >

(in reply to 1nutworld)
Post #: 10
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