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No refund policy - 1/5/2021 11:19:40 AM   
PeteS

 

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The no refund policy is unacceptable. "Steam" will refund on products that won't run properly after I purchase. I have been told by someone here that 99% of sites don't refund. But "Steam" does refund. I will not purchase from this site again. Thank you
Post #: 1
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 11:29:23 AM   
Zovs


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It’s been perfectly acceptable for over 20 years for thousands of war gamers. So if your not a real war gamer and just a causal player then I get your angst, but for the many war gamers here we want and need no refunds.

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RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 12:18:43 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteS

The no refund policy is unacceptable. "Steam" will refund on products that won't run properly after I purchase. I have been told by someone here that 99% of sites don't refund. But "Steam" does refund. I will not purchase from this site again. Thank you


You should have read the policy first, then purchased. Then followed the advise given on installing the game. Remember, you actually have to be smarter than what you are working with.

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Post #: 3
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 12:39:17 PM   
zakblood


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steam is a gaming platform and doesn't for one make games, only sells others, the rule there is simple, and has a 2 hour use windows to refund, site games have a one use serial number that once used can't be sold, traded or re sold / returned

so no refund, but plenty of free advice and support forum wise for any gaming issue, all that's needed is to work with the advice and if someone asks for hardware and drivers reports etc, then more depth of the issue is needed before a propper reply is given, so not just guess work

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Post #: 4
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 12:53:03 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zakblood

steam is a gaming platform and doesn't for one make games, only sells others, the rule there is simple, and has a 2 hour use windows to refund, site games have a one use serial number that once used can't be sold, traded or re sold / returned

so no refund, but plenty of free advice and support forum wise for any gaming issue, all that's needed is to work with the advice and if someone asks for hardware and drivers reports etc, then more depth of the issue is needed before a propper reply is given, so not just guess work


Yes, many other people have had problems installing and running WITP:AE and were given help. Now the game is running fine for them and they are having fun.

Apparently, this individual did not read the "readme" file about switches.

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Post #: 5
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 1:01:25 PM   
MrsWargamer


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I have bought many a wargame only to realize, once again, my addiction happened again :)

But I require no refund policy, and I couldn't care less if Steam offers it.

Plenty of wargames here ARE offered on Steam though. So the reality is to buy your games the way you buy a car, or a house, or any other major purchase. Not that a wargame is a major purchase, it isn't. But if you value your money, look before you leap.

Not that Steam's extremely finite trial period is of much real use. Most of our wargames originating from Matrix Games and or Slitherine are sufficiently complex, that just installing it tells you almost nothing. Getting it to run, is almost worth nothing for analysis of whether you liked your purchase. Most wargames take days figure out. Often require us to print out the sizable pdf document. Even when fully understood, some of our wargames simply take hours and more to play a turn though.

They don't sell mainstream games here, which come with a finite playthrough experience 'beaten' in x hours.
We don't label arcade designs like Call of Duty as 'wargames.
These are seriously challenging designs.
The majority of us are hardcore and seriously smart.

We are easy to talk to. We LIKE helping new comers. If you are looking for a gaming experience, the right choice is to ask for input. Describe your own gaming experiences, talk about your expectations. We know these games back to front and top to bottom.

No one here thinks your just a wad of cash to obtain.

Add to that, the simple fact, that almost all of our wargames of choice will run adequately on a 5-10 year old rig that is worth almost nothing currently. Plenty wargames will run just fine on a computer from the 90s. I've never once bought a video card to run a wargame. I've never once needed more ram, or a faster processor in the 30 years I've owned a computer. That's the beauty of wargames, they will run on junk.

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Post #: 6
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 2:53:45 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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How does one "return" a digital program, after installing it on your PC?

Used to, you had to have the disk just to run the game. That's been replaced by license codes. Once you have that code, how do you give it back, short of a lobotomy?

Steam's installation, as I understand it, requires one to run the game through Steam. So, they retain an ability to block its use. Matrix doesn't.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 1/6/2021 12:21:10 AM >


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RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 3:37:34 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

How does one "return" a digital program, after installing it on your PC?

Used to, you had to have the disk just to run the game. That's been replaced by licence codes. Once you have that code, how do you give it back, short of a lobotomy?

Steam's installation, as I understand it, requires one to run the game through Steam. So, they retain an ability to block its use. Matrix doesn't.


Oh, Curtis Lemay is actually correct.

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Post #: 8
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 5:05:22 PM   
ThomasJay

 

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GOG also offers refunds on their games, and they're drm free. I've never refunded there, so I don't know how they make it work, honor system? I've used steam refunds for 1 game because it wouldn't launch without changing some files and I couldn't be bothered for an impulse sale purchase. But other than those sites, I've never expected a refund on a game in 25+ years offline or digital.

For potential customers new to Matrix and the Matrix store, the product pages for the older titles give no indication if the user is going to have make any changes just to get the game to run properly. I think a prominent warning notice on the store product page with links to tech support for known installation/display issues would be helpful. While most wargamers expect to do these things, I can see where its a hindrance for some potential customers.



















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Post #: 9
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 5:19:45 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThomasJay

GOG also offers refunds on their games, and they're drm free. I've never refunded there, so I don't know how they make it work, honor system? I've used steam refunds for 1 game because it wouldn't launch without changing some files and I couldn't be bothered for an impulse sale purchase. But other than those sites, I've never expected a refund on a game in 25+ years offline or digital.

For potential customers new to Matrix and the Matrix store, the product pages for the older titles give no indication if the user is going to have make any changes just to get the game to run properly. I think a prominent warning notice on the store product page with links to tech support for known installation/display issues would be helpful. While most wargamers expect to do these things, I can see where its a hindrance for some potential customers.


Or a person could look at the threads about the game.

_____________________________

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Post #: 10
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 5:39:44 PM   
Zovs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThomasJay

For potential customers new to Matrix and the Matrix store, the product pages for the older titles give no indication if the user is going to have make any changes just to get the game to run properly. I think a prominent warning notice on the store product page with links to tech support for known installation/display issues would be helpful. While most wargamers expect to do these things, I can see where its a hindrance for some potential customers.



Oh do you mean like this:



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Post #: 11
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 5:42:26 PM   
RangerJoe


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WOW! That date, 7 December 19141, is a long ways away!

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Post #: 12
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 7:16:56 PM   
Zovs


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LOL

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Post #: 13
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 7:21:10 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

LOL


Observe and REPORT things of interest!

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Post #: 14
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 7:36:40 PM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThomasJay

GOG also offers refunds on their games, and they're drm free. I've never refunded there, so I don't know how they make it work, honor system? I've used steam refunds for 1 game because it wouldn't launch without changing some files and I couldn't be bothered for an impulse sale purchase. But other than those sites, I've never expected a refund on a game in 25+ years offline or digital.

For potential customers new to Matrix and the Matrix store, the product pages for the older titles give no indication if the user is going to have make any changes just to get the game to run properly. I think a prominent warning notice on the store product page with links to tech support for known installation/display issues would be helpful. While most wargamers expect to do these things, I can see where its a hindrance for some potential customers.


Well after checking just now GOG has once again changed their refund policy. It looks like they will trust anyone to be honest again.

Maybe they'll have better luck than last time.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 1/5/2021 7:37:09 PM >


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RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 9:40:54 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

site games have a one use serial number that once used can't be sold, traded or re sold / returned


Actually JTS allows users to trade games. It's in their terms and I have done so.

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Post #: 16
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 11:09:11 PM   
demyansk


Posts: 2777
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I always find the matrix games I have bought are done by some careful research and following this forum since 2008. Plus, good group of people who are helpful, sometimes it would be nice if a person could sell something they didn’t like and the serial number thing gets in the way. Oh well, I hope you try matrix again, good stuff

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Post #: 17
RE: No refund policy - 1/5/2021 11:20:16 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi Pete,

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteS
The no refund policy is unacceptable. "Steam" will refund on products that won't run properly after I purchase. I have been told by someone here that 99% of sites don't refund. But "Steam" does refund. I will not purchase from this site again. Thank you


If we can't get help you get the game working, there are options available. Please create a ticket with our Help Desk and reference this thread and we'll see if we can get it to run for you.

Regards,

- Erik




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For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

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Post #: 18
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 1:14:13 AM   
Freyr Oakenshield


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeteS

The no refund policy is unacceptable. "Steam" will refund on products that won't run properly after I purchase. I have been told by someone here that 99% of sites don't refund. But "Steam" does refund. I will not purchase from this site again. Thank you


Steam refunds because they have a DRM system in place. When you buy a game on Steam your account gets the game's key and this key is really invisible to you and you can't give it away to other people. It's linked to your account. You have 2 hrs to test the game and if you don't like it you can get a refund because they can remove this key from your account AND no one else will ever get this key from you AND you will not be able to play the game anymore.

However, with Matrix games, there's no real DRM system; a customer gets a visible key (you can actually see the combination of letters and numbers) and so refunding would be susceptible to fraud, as dishonest customers could actually give the key away to other gamers before refunding OR they could still keep the game on their HDs and the key in their Windows registries (because this is where they are located) after the refund... That's probably why there are no refunds...

< Message edited by Freyr Oakenshield -- 1/6/2021 1:19:40 AM >


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Post #: 19
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 1:39:58 AM   
Rosseau

 

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An interesting and informative thread for sure. I hope the OP is okay with things and can get his game running. I know Zakblood has tested many games for Win10, and is one of many supportive people here.

It's crazy, but I've got pretty much every game Matrix sells, including WitP AE and the really old GG Bombing the Reich. And yet, after purchasing Fantasy General II on Steam, it just stopped running after an update. As always, embarrassed to admit I probably have 1,000 games that will run, but not that one. So the two-hour Steam policy did not help me here.

Now to give the OP a little love, if I was saving up money for that game and got burned, I'd be pretty bummed out. But in my case, I didn't think FGII was so great anyway, so wrote it off.

It's a mistake I often make: Needing to put myself in someone else's shoes. This guy might have had his heart set on a game. But I am confident if he is patient and civil, Matrix staff will do its best to help. God bless!


(in reply to Freyr Oakenshield)
Post #: 20
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 1:45:11 AM   
RangerJoe


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WITP:AE was recently on sale for 16 USD.

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Post #: 21
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 2:26:00 AM   
Rosseau

 

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Times are tough, but for newcomers to the wargaming genre, the WitP:AE sale is an example of how they have got it good taking advantage of all these bargains!

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Post #: 22
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 8:40:50 AM   
Alfred

 

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You should all disregard PeteS and not take at face value his posts. Here is some hard data to consider.

1. He joined the Matrix forums on 4 January 2021.

2. His profile shows he has made a total of 19 posts since joining.

3. The 19 posts are found in 3 threads he created, two on 5 Jan, the other on 6 Jan.

4. The three threads are as follows:

In the Site Feedback forum

(a) Refund Policy (thread title) - post #1

(b) No refund polic (sic) (thread title - thread subsequently locked) - posts #1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 26, 29, 35, and 39 = a total of 17 posts

In the General Discussion forum

(c) No refund policy 9 thread title - yep, this very same thread) - post #1

5. As can be seen all 19 posts are accounted for. Not a single one made in the dedicated game forum. One therefore wonders just who exactly he asked for help (you will all have to read the locked thread to get the details of his claims). He certainly hasn't approached the experts for help. With the greatest respect, if he directly approached Matrix Support (and I for one am not convinced he even took that step) Matrix Support are generalists, they are not experts on the game in question.

6. Even with assistance from experts, it is still incumbent on him to properly apply the switches. Based on his posts, I see evidence that he didn't apply switches correctly.

Alfred

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 23
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 9:47:55 AM   
Freyr Oakenshield


Posts: 528
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

You should all disregard PeteS and not take at face value his posts. Here is some hard data to consider.

1. He joined the Matrix forums on 4 January 2021.

2. His profile shows he has made a total of 19 posts since joining.

3. The 19 posts are found in 3 threads he created, two on 5 Jan, the other on 6 Jan.

4. The three threads are as follows:

In the Site Feedback forum

(a) Refund Policy (thread title) - post #1

(b) No refund polic (sic) (thread title - thread subsequently locked) - posts #1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 26, 29, 35, and 39 = a total of 17 posts

In the General Discussion forum

(c) No refund policy 9 thread title - yep, this very same thread) - post #1

5. As can be seen all 19 posts are accounted for. Not a single one made in the dedicated game forum. One therefore wonders just who exactly he asked for help (you will all have to read the locked thread to get the details of his claims). He certainly hasn't approached the experts for help. With the greatest respect, if he directly approached Matrix Support (and I for one am not convinced he even took that step) Matrix Support are generalists, they are not experts on the game in question.

6. Even with assistance from experts, it is still incumbent on him to properly apply the switches. Based on his posts, I see evidence that he didn't apply switches correctly.

Alfred



Yeah, well, he must be one of them "agents provocateur," who clearly came here to foment revolt and incite gaming hatred


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Post #: 24
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 1:06:13 PM   
Zovs


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Excellent post Alfred!

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Post #: 25
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 1:38:44 PM   
rico21


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So many times have I bought wargames and played them once,
telling myself that this game was not for me and then replaying one of my old wargames and enjoying it, even more than before.
I take comfort in telling myself that I have helped fund the smartest art on this planet, wargaming.

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Post #: 26
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 2:12:06 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 5855
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From: United States
Status: online
rico21

That is what I have experienced a bit a well. I picked up MWiF on a sale, installed it and was like meh..., but a year later I came back and read and watched all the tutorials and found it was / is a very excellent game.

Case in point I have had the HPS Panzer Campaigns I have been toting around for years and then two weeks ago I decided to install some and that lead to me purchasing some of the Gold series. Totally awesome series.

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Post #: 27
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 2:52:14 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12744
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Excellent post Alfred!


I agree.

Yes, I did notice that his first posts were complaints and none were asking for help. Hence my responses.

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Post #: 28
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 3:59:36 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6635
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Freyr Oakenshield


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

You should all disregard PeteS and not take at face value his posts. Here is some hard data to consider.

1. He joined the Matrix forums on 4 January 2021.

2. His profile shows he has made a total of 19 posts since joining.

3. The 19 posts are found in 3 threads he created, two on 5 Jan, the other on 6 Jan.

4. The three threads are as follows:

In the Site Feedback forum

(a) Refund Policy (thread title) - post #1

(b) No refund polic (sic) (thread title - thread subsequently locked) - posts #1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10, 11, 14, 16, 19, 20, 21, 22, 26, 29, 35, and 39 = a total of 17 posts

In the General Discussion forum

(c) No refund policy 9 thread title - yep, this very same thread) - post #1

5. As can be seen all 19 posts are accounted for. Not a single one made in the dedicated game forum. One therefore wonders just who exactly he asked for help (you will all have to read the locked thread to get the details of his claims). He certainly hasn't approached the experts for help. With the greatest respect, if he directly approached Matrix Support (and I for one am not convinced he even took that step) Matrix Support are generalists, they are not experts on the game in question.

6. Even with assistance from experts, it is still incumbent on him to properly apply the switches. Based on his posts, I see evidence that he didn't apply switches correctly.

Alfred



Yeah, well, he must be one of them "agents provocateur," who clearly came here to foment revolt and incite gaming hatred



I don't know if he is an "agents provocateur". However, I can and do, infer certain things from his 19 posts.

1. He has very limited patience when it comes to resolving technical computer issues.

2. Attention to detail is not his forte.

3. He is not adept at handling command line parameters, which when added to the above points, very strongly suggests that he has never had to configure software to run in a DOS environment.

4. He expects everything to runs perfectly "straight out of the box".

5. He is no stranger to demanding refunds. No need to research a product before purchase because a refund will be forthcoming.


The above inferences paint in my mind a picture of a young individual whose entire computer experience dates only from the plug and play era. An individual who is accustomed to instant gratification, and if that does not ensue, it is someone else's fault. This is not a picture of someone who would cope with the complexity of the game in question, even if it installed perfectly "straight out of the box". In short, not a grognard and hence unlikely to find many Matrix games to his taste.

Alfred

(in reply to Freyr Oakenshield)
Post #: 29
RE: No refund policy - 1/6/2021 5:09:19 PM   
Edmon

 

Posts: 146
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So two quick things here...

1) We at Slitherine are here to help you guys, we want you to enjoy our games and get the most out of them. If there is some reason your game just won't work, we have a support email address you can message us on and we will do our best to help you.

2) Please do not "attack" others in the forum. Well written or otherwise, inferring things about other forum users, especially negative things is not really what I want to see because it can often lead to the person being inferred about responding... which leads to a flame war, paper work, having to moderate, etc... a bad time all around. So please remember to ensure the topic you are writing about is not another forum user.

Be excellent to each other guys. It's what Rufus would have wanted.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 30
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