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RE: War of movement in 1914?

 
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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/13/2021 11:59:31 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete


Yes, I am. It doesn't have to be introduced into the main game, or even be developed as a mod. It can just be used as "house rules" if 2 players want to introduce a bit of extra variety to their game together. Having no entrenchment for the first 5 or 6 turns might create new positions and possibilities in some games that can enhance the replayability of the game. Maybe the Germans can get closer to Paris or the Russians can drive the Austro-Hungarians right out of Galicia in 1914?

While there obviously is movement in the early turns of the game, there is often premature entrenchment too e.g. between Verdun and Switzerland by both French and German forces.


Ahhh...I understand now. Yeah, this option as a 'house rule' would add some variety for sure. Also, knowing how some house rules have been 'forgotten' in the middle of a match, it would be easy to see when your opponent is digging in some dirt when he wasn't supposed to

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/14/2021 5:27:56 AM   
Patrat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

While there obviously is movement in the early turns of the game, there is often premature entrenchment too e.g. between Verdun and Switzerland by both French and German forces.


I would like to mention that in real life the war of movement stopped between Verdun and the Swiss border long before it stopped in the north.

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/14/2021 5:55:17 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrat


quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

While there obviously is movement in the early turns of the game, there is often premature entrenchment too e.g. between Verdun and Switzerland by both French and German forces.


I would like to mention that in real life the war of movement stopped between Verdun and the Swiss border long before it stopped in the north.



Yes, but there was a war of movement there too for most of August until the French withdrew from Mulhouse on 26/8. They did not dig trenches there in the first week of August.

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 12:39:27 PM   
MVP7

 

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Personally I don't see a need for limiting early game entrenchment. The low trench technology at the beginning of the game already makes western front fairly mobile and hexes change owners a lot more than they will in 1915.

Even if the lowest level trenches use trench graphics that doesn't necessarily mean they are proper trenches. Even the early war infantry would prepare some kind of defenses if they were going to defend a position.

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 2:57:48 PM   
Patrat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete


quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrat


quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

While there obviously is movement in the early turns of the game, there is often premature entrenchment too e.g. between Verdun and Switzerland by both French and German forces.


I would like to mention that in real life the war of movement stopped between Verdun and the Swiss border long before it stopped in the north.



Yes, but there was a war of movement there too for most of August until the French withdrew from Mulhouse on 26/8. They did not dig trenches there in the first week of August.


While it's TRUE that they didn't entrench in the beginning of August. That was only because the French 1st army commander was overruled by Joffe.

"On 8 August, Bonneau cautiously continued the advance and occupied Mulhouse, shortly after the German 58th Infantry Brigade retreated.[13] The First Army commander, General Auguste Dubail, preferred to dig in and wait for mobilisation to finish but Joffre ordered the advance to continue."



[13] Herwig, H. (2009). The Marne, 1914: The Opening of World War I and the Battle that Changed the World. New York: Random House. ISBN 978-1-4000-6671-1.




< Message edited by Patrat -- 1/15/2021 3:02:13 PM >

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 3:07:23 PM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrat

While it's TRUE that they didn't entrench in the beginning of August. That was only because the French 1st army commander was overruled by Joffe.

"On 8 August, Bonneau cautiously continued the advance and occupied Mulhouse, shortly after the German 58th Infantry Brigade retreated.[13] The First Army commander, General Auguste Dubail, preferred to dig in and wait for mobilisation to finish but Joffre ordered the advance to continue."



[13] Herwig, H. (2009). The Marne, 1914: The Opening of World War I and the Battle that Changed the World. New York: Random House. ISBN 978-1-4000-6671-1.




I have already said that "entrenchment" or "digging in" in towns and cities (occupying strong points etc) may be allowed in house rules using this "no entrenchment" idea in the first 5 or 6 turns of the game. This would seem to cover the Mulhouse situation that you are referring to here.

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Post #: 36
RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 3:12:24 PM   
Patrat


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I wasn't debating your game idea. I posted the above to point out that not entrenching, was purely a command decision and not something that went against doctrine.


< Message edited by Patrat -- 1/15/2021 3:13:27 PM >

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 3:47:43 PM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrat

I wasn't debating your game idea. I posted the above to point out that not entrenching, was purely a command decision and not something that went against doctrine.



But it did though, didn't it? Generals like Foch and Joffre were all in favour of an attacking strategy. I am sure there were French generals who took a different view. Maybe Bonneau was one of these, but he didn't keep his position as an army commander in that sector for very long. The attacking policy is often referred to as "guerre à outrance" and defensive tactics were widely frowned upon by the French military when the war started.

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Post #: 38
RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 4:09:25 PM   
Patrat


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You are correct that the prevailing doctrine was one of the offensive and digging in may have been frowned upon, but my post showed that commanders were willing to dig in if they thought it necessary. I don't believe it was part of the prevailing offensive doctrine, to never dig in.

Btw Dubail was the army commander, just like in the game.

< Message edited by Patrat -- 1/15/2021 4:17:07 PM >

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 4:25:50 PM   
Patrat


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I would also like to point out that 3 weeks into the war the French were everywhere on the defensive. So their offensive doctrine didn't last long.


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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 1/15/2021 4:49:27 PM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Patrat
Btw Dubail was the army commander, just like in the game.


Bonneau was the commander of the French VII Corps who initially took Mulhouse, but then failed to hold it. He was sacked by Joffre. The VII Corps then quickly re-took Mulhouse under a new commander (Pau).

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 3/12/2021 8:33:35 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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Just another thought came to me about this idea that could be used in a "house rule". No entrenching is allowed on the Western Front until the Germans decide to dig trenches there. No entrenching is allowed on the Eastern Front until the Germans decide to dig trenches there either. But entrenchment is allowed from the beginning of the war on the Serbian front.

The idea is to replicate the German initiative on the Western Front in their efforts to knock France out quickly. And to replicate superior German movement/Communications on the Eastern Front against the Russian attackers.

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 3/12/2021 4:07:19 PM   
Bavre

 

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In MP that would basically equal Russian suicide vs a Russia first and French suicide vs Schlieffen. It is VERY difficult to stop a determined onslaught by an experienced CP player as it is, trust me! In my last Entente game I was barely able to hold Paris vs the initial push.

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RE: War of movement in 1914? - 3/12/2021 4:34:13 PM   
mdsmall

 

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I find all the fronts in the game pretty fluid until players begin to reach Trench Warfare tech 2. The French offensive doctrine in the first few weeks of the war proved to be disastrous for them, so I don't think that is something players should be encouraged or forced to replicate.

However, when all the majors have four chits invested in Trench Warfare tech, they start to reach Trench Warfare tech levels 3 and 4 by mid to late 1915. It might be interesting to experiment with a house rule limiting the number of chits players can invest in Trench warfare tech to 3 or even 2, to see how that affects the tempo of the game.

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Post #: 44
RE: War of movement in 1914? - 3/12/2021 4:42:07 PM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bavre

In MP that would basically equal Russian suicide vs a Russia first and French suicide vs Schlieffen. It is VERY difficult to stop a determined onslaught by an experienced CP player as it is, trust me! In my last Entente game I was barely able to hold Paris vs the initial push.


Not necessarily if you combined it with a modified operational movement that ended on a railway hex and historical deployment for Germany. With "house rules" you can use your imagination a bit and explore different parameters.

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Post #: 45
RE: War of movement in 1914? - 3/13/2021 9:12:32 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

However, when all the majors have four chits invested in Trench Warfare tech, they start to reach Trench Warfare tech levels 3 and 4 by mid to late 1915. It might be interesting to experiment with a house rule limiting the number of chits players can invest in Trench warfare tech to 3 or even 2, to see how that affects the tempo of the game.
telescoping

Yes, I think this is true for a lot of the Techs. I have just adjusted my Mod for my next game against the AI by reducing the maximum number of chits that can be used for any Research category to 2. As quite a high proportion of games in MP seem to be decided (if not actually finished completely) by the end of 1916, it would be interesting to investigate ways of extending the conflict into 1918, so things like US participation in the war and the Kerensky period in Russia in 1917 became more regular features of the game. I think a lot is being lost through the telescoping of the war into the period 1914-16.

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