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Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? Or can it not?

 
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Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? ... - 1/4/2021 7:35:01 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zuxius
Be warned that the hard building limit puts you in a time crunch. The free units you get are “in excess” of your normal limits. So if you reach your sub build limit then the subs that come “preprogrammed for free” will artificially bump you above your build limit. This makes for a larger sub navy. If you wait for the free units to show up, then they’ll count against your maximum build limits. Many players know this is true about German tanks too, so they get them all bought up ASAP so they can exceed their maximums. I typically buy a paratrooper during Poland and say “no” to the early paratrooper at half strength. This allows my Germans a third paratrooper. I’m using that as an example for how the early sub purchases must be put in.


All credits to Zuxius for cluing me in on these strategies which seems the ultimate way to go every time for Germany. And now I know why the best players are so good and have so many more units. But is this not considered a cheat? Is this really balanced to allow because who would not go for this strategy every time? But before you flame me know that I am an Axis fanboy and want to win as Axis every time haha. But I disdain any type of strategem that is so good that it is the only path that every player must choose to win. This seems like a cheat to me. Is there no way to fix the game to prevent this or is this just the way it is? If so I know I will be doing this every game! More subs, more tanks , more paratroops, more everything!!


< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/5/2021 10:56:46 PM >


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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/4/2021 8:17:13 PM   
Epekepe

 

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quote:


More subs, more tanks , more paratroops, more everything!!



It is also less everything else. I don't see any cheating. But of course all of these invisible rules should be listed in game manual and in matrix forum, so that everyone could reach them more easily, without need to read all pages on this forum and other places

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/4/2021 8:55:01 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Epekepe


quote:


More subs, more tanks , more paratroops, more everything!!



It is also less everything else. I don't see any cheating. But of course all of these invisible rules should be listed in game manual and in matrix forum, so that everyone could reach them more easily, without need to read all pages on this forum and other places



That might be a valid argument if tanks, subs, and paratroops were not some of if not the most important units in the game? And it is not just these units you can increase this way...I think it is hidden because the Devs never saw this coming?

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/4/2021 9:36:30 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Yep, the 3rd Paratroop is done by a few players.

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 7:19:28 AM   
Epekepe

 

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Joined: 3/24/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Epekepe


quote:


More subs, more tanks , more paratroops, more everything!!



It is also less everything else. I don't see any cheating. But of course all of these invisible rules should be listed in game manual and in matrix forum, so that everyone could reach them more easily, without need to read all pages on this forum and other places



That might be a valid argument if tanks, subs, and paratroops were not some of if not the most important units in the game? And it is not just these units you can increase this way...I think it is hidden because the Devs never saw this coming?


I understand your valid point. I just don't ever have enough MPP:s to get all of those extra units for me. I usually only buy 1 of those extra units available(tank,sub or paratroops).

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Post #: 5
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 7:33:06 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Hi Tanaka, yeah I knew about the paratroop mechanic long time ago with WiE and figured that that would apply to tanks or other things too, but never had the money to go that route.

The paratroop early buy is common but that's money not going to research or a panzer corp for France (or something else). Its a good strategy going with the 'extra' paratrooper if your planning to use them a lot though...they are handy to have around

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 1/5/2021 7:35:14 AM >

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 12:22:31 PM   
Christolos


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I prefer playing with soft builds on which gets around the perception of the aforementioned strategy being considered gamey. Imho, it adds to the aspect of not being constrained by what happened in history, i.e., adds to the game's ability to model 'what if' game play. Of course it could be abused to the point of, for example, building nothinhg but tons of extra tanks, but not only is this a recipe for disaster in terms of an effective combined arms approach, it also costs too much in terms of limiting spending on other important aspects like research.

C

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 5:39:34 PM   
LoneRunner

 

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The extra German paratrooper comes in handy however two downsides are:
o You have to purchase the paratrooper before the new unit of paratroopers deploy in December 39. MPPs are really tight for the Germans at the start of the game because you need to research infantry weapons and advanced tanks. Not to mention upgrading units and operating units to the Western Front.
o If one of the three paratroopers gets killed, I don't think you can rebuild it. Perhaps someone could confirm this. That means you are down to two paratroopers for the rest of the game.

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 10:51:45 PM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Hi Tanaka, yeah I knew about the paratroop mechanic long time ago with WiE and figured that that would apply to tanks or other things too, but never had the money to go that route.

The paratroop early buy is common but that's money not going to research or a panzer corp for France (or something else). Its a good strategy going with the 'extra' paratrooper if your planning to use them a lot though...they are handy to have around


Hmm so are you saying you support these tactics? Just trying to get a consensus...

Would you be ok with me having three paratroopers in our game?

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Post #: 9
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 10:53:23 PM   
Tanaka


Posts: 3862
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Christolos

I prefer playing with soft builds on which gets around the perception of the aforementioned strategy being considered gamey. Imho, it adds to the aspect of not being constrained by what happened in history, i.e., adds to the game's ability to model 'what if' game play. Of course it could be abused to the point of, for example, building nothinhg but tons of extra tanks, but not only is this a recipe for disaster in terms of an effective combined arms approach, it also costs too much in terms of limiting spending on other important aspects like research.

C


Yeah the build limit cheat is starting to make me think this is the best way to go so that all is fair...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/5/2021 10:54:01 PM >


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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 10:55:21 PM   
Tanaka


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

The extra German paratrooper comes in handy however two downsides are:
o You have to purchase the paratrooper before the new unit of paratroopers deploy in December 39. MPPs are really tight for the Germans at the start of the game because you need to research infantry weapons and advanced tanks. Not to mention upgrading units and operating units to the Western Front.
o If one of the three paratroopers gets killed, I don't think you can rebuild it. Perhaps someone could confirm this. That means you are down to two paratroopers for the rest of the game.


This is true I am trying to weigh the upsides and downsides here and what everyone's consensus is on this issue...

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/5/2021 10:57:55 PM   
Tanaka


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From: USA
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Curious if the Devs have an opinion on this? Is this working as designed?

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Post #: 12
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/6/2021 1:50:22 AM   
Elessar2


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These extra units come in from events, which bypass the build limits. Maybe said limits can apply to event units? [Optional toggle in the editor]

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Post #: 13
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/6/2021 5:49:20 AM   
Pocus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

These extra units come in from events, which bypass the build limits. Maybe said limits can apply to event units? [Optional toggle in the editor]


The cure would be worse than the disease. Units from events are not listed anywhere, except if you dig in the scripts. Meaning only veterans players would know what to expect, whereas others would be penalized because they buy a unit, reach their limit and lose the free unit from event.

I think that's fine for now. Soft limit is the way to go anyway, for a bit of variations

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/6/2021 9:01:36 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

The extra German paratrooper comes in handy however two downsides are:
o You have to purchase the paratrooper before the new unit of paratroopers deploy in December 39. MPPs are really tight for the Germans at the start of the game because you need to research infantry weapons and advanced tanks. Not to mention upgrading units and operating units to the Western Front.
o If one of the three paratroopers gets killed, I don't think you can rebuild it. Perhaps someone could confirm this. That means you are down to two paratroopers for the rest of the game.


You're right, the extra unit can't be repurchased, so it is lost forever when it is destroyed.

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 1/6/2021 9:03:42 AM >


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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/6/2021 1:09:37 PM   
vonRocko

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner

The extra German paratrooper comes in handy however two downsides are:
o You have to purchase the paratrooper before the new unit of paratroopers deploy in December 39. MPPs are really tight for the Germans at the start of the game because you need to research infantry weapons and advanced tanks. Not to mention upgrading units and operating units to the Western Front.
o If one of the three paratroopers gets killed, I don't think you can rebuild it. Perhaps someone could confirm this. That means you are down to two paratroopers for the rest of the game.


You're right, the extra unit can't be repurchased, so it is lost forever when it is destroyed.


+1 There is no need to change this.

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Post #: 16
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/6/2021 3:27:56 PM   
BaggieMania

 

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I agree, i use it sparingly, but it is at the cost of something else plus you cannot buy the unit back. Leave it as it is.

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RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/8/2021 5:46:18 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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From: Republic of Cascadia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Hi Tanaka, yeah I knew about the paratroop mechanic long time ago with WiE and figured that that would apply to tanks or other things too, but never had the money to go that route.

The paratroop early buy is common but that's money not going to research or a panzer corp for France (or something else). Its a good strategy going with the 'extra' paratrooper if your planning to use them a lot though...they are handy to have around


Hmm so are you saying you support these tactics? Just trying to get a consensus...

Would you be ok with me having three paratroopers in our game?


Whoa, I missed this.

Yeah Tanaka, I would be ok if you made this decision.

General Student of the Luftwaffe was a huge advocate of airborne doctrine. If the German player decides to go this route, I think that's fine and realistic. It would have to be reflected early in the war, which is whats happening here with this game mechanic. It comes at a cost of not spending early game MMP's on some other critical need..and isn't the easiest decision when I run into that.

It will depend on what my long term strategy is going to be and if I need this extra paratroop unit or not. Anyway, if that 'extra' paratroop unit is lost...its lost for good. That also will weigh in my determinations of whether to go this route or not.

cheers

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 18
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 1/8/2021 6:54:48 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 3862
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka


quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

Hi Tanaka, yeah I knew about the paratroop mechanic long time ago with WiE and figured that that would apply to tanks or other things too, but never had the money to go that route.

The paratroop early buy is common but that's money not going to research or a panzer corp for France (or something else). Its a good strategy going with the 'extra' paratrooper if your planning to use them a lot though...they are handy to have around


Hmm so are you saying you support these tactics? Just trying to get a consensus...

Would you be ok with me having three paratroopers in our game?


Whoa, I missed this.

Yeah Tanaka, I would be ok if you made this decision.

General Student of the Luftwaffe was a huge advocate of airborne doctrine. If the German player decides to go this route, I think that's fine and realistic. It would have to be reflected early in the war, which is whats happening here with this game mechanic. It comes at a cost of not spending early game MMP's on some other critical need..and isn't the easiest decision when I run into that.

It will depend on what my long term strategy is going to be and if I need this extra paratroop unit or not. Anyway, if that 'extra' paratroop unit is lost...its lost for good. That also will weigh in my determinations of whether to go this route or not.

cheers


Ok thanks for the feedback! It seems the consensus is to leave as is! So I shall join in on the party!

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Post #: 19
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fix... - 1/8/2021 5:11:37 PM   
LoneRunner

 

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/16/2020
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

All credits to Zuxius for cluing me in on these strategies which seems the ultimate way to go every time for Germany. And now I know why the best players are so good and have so many more units. But is this not considered a cheat? Is this really balanced to allow because who would not go for this strategy every time? But before you flame me know that I am an Axis fanboy and want to win as Axis every time haha. But I disdain any type of strategem that is so good that it is the only path that every player must choose to win. This seems like a cheat to me. Is there no way to fix the game to prevent this or is this just the way it is? If so I know I will be doing this every game! More subs, more tanks , more paratroops, more everything!!



Do people really consider building extra units a cheat? I don't build the additional paratrooper because it's not worth it to me but I will go for the extra panzer before Rommel shows up.

However, if people feel that building extra units is cheating, I certainly won't use that strategy.
Lone

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 20
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fix... - 1/8/2021 5:27:22 PM   
ElvisJJonesRambo


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Cheat, nah. Strong word for an extra paratroop. I call it part of the game. Build it within deadlines of appearance of fixed units, nothing wrong with that.


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Post #: 21
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fix... - 1/8/2021 8:06:01 PM   
pjg100

 

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FWIW, I don't consider this to be a cheat.

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Post #: 22
RE: Build Limit Cheats: Should this be Balanced and Fixed? - 5/6/2021 12:17:31 AM   
Alcibiades73

 

Posts: 346
Joined: 5/4/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner


If one of the three paratroopers gets killed, I don't think you can rebuild it. Perhaps someone could confirm this. That means you are down to two paratroopers for the rest of the game.


Then it doesn't seem like all that consequential of a "cheat"?

(in reply to LoneRunner)
Post #: 23
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