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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 1/27/2021 8:58:03 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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I am convinced now that the AI Italians in my computer have never heard of Trieste or Fiume. Having tried various experiments with this Alpine front to encourage AI Italian assaults across the Isonzo, in the latest one I defended one row of hexes back from the border along the Klagenfurt-Trieste line. To give them some credit the AI Italians did initially attack all along that short 3-hex front, but their heaviest attacks were at Klagenfurt. Eventually they took the town - but then immediately turned northwards again towards Salzburg, Linz and Vienna. They need to drive at Trieste first not Salzburg and Linz.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 1/27/2021 4:36:17 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
When Italy gets close to War..I will post another screen shot. I want to see if the Italians can make a go on Trento...and if the Austro-Hungarians can hold it.


What's the supply level of your AH units around Trento, and is that positioning just for the test or would you consider doing that in a real game?

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 1/27/2021 4:37:55 PM >


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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 1/27/2021 10:32:00 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor
When Italy gets close to War..I will post another screen shot. I want to see if the Italians can make a go on Trento...and if the Austro-Hungarians can hold it.


What's the supply level of your AH units around Trento, and is that positioning just for the test or would you consider doing that in a real game?


Bill,

This is the supply situation as of Jan 1915 for the Central Powers. The AH XVII corp in Trento is at readiness 64/morale 78.

Normally, in a MP game..I would have a German corp in Trento by February 15'.(I did deploy the new XVIII Ger corp that comes in January south of Munich to assist). It's probably better also to have at least 2 AH corps facing the Italians on the Isonzo sector initially. That way, in the future, if the Austro-Hungarians get the upper hand with Serbia, they can pull an Hq over to the Trieste area to strengthen their forces there.

I have saved the turns for each side for alternative deployments and attacks...but for this run I would like to continue with the campaign into the summer. The Italians really aren't that powerful, but in a MP match I'm sure determined assaults over the course of a season could make Trento Fortress fall. What I'm curious is how many casualties the Italians are willing to take to do that by themselves. Also...this is why I'm pushing my usual agenda playing both sides..who are hitting each other so hard that it will difficult for them to get involved heavily in this theater..which usually is a sideshow until later in the war.

Also..I have a friend who is going to be up for a week to hunker down..and we are going to start a hotseat match with this included..so we should get better data.




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 1/27/2021 10:34:05 PM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 1/31/2021 3:34:56 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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June 5 1915 Italy goes to war.

This is the initial moves for Italy. In this game, sadly for the Entente, the 2 Italian HQs are a 2 and a 5 quality. (In some matches I have been lucky enough to get 6's for both that spawn upon the outbreak of war.) So..I will have to wait for the decision that comes up that options the Cadorna (6) HQ and decide whether to spend the MMP on it or not...sack one of these knuckleheads...or spend the money on research and/or unit strength.

No way can I make an attempt at Trento Fortress at this time. The KuK corp in the fort is entrenched at 4. We will wait and see as the Italians build up on the front.

My friend who goes by the online handle of Dark Taboo (among other names haha) will be playing the CP. So this test is going to be even more interesting. He will screenshot this area from his p.o.v. when necessary. We are going to save each turn so we can come back to test other options regarding having Trento Fortress and the High Mountain terrain as featured here.




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 1/31/2021 3:35:30 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 1/31/2021 4:53:32 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Central Powers reaction to Italian war declaration. June 19, 1915.

A German corp is rotated into Trento Fortress. Germany has Trench Warfare 2, the corp is at entrenchment in the fort at 3 out of 5. Austria-Hungary is still at Trench Warfare 1 and the corp they had in there was at entrenchment 4.

The German corp has better morale and readiness...this may provoke an attack by the Italians, but they may not be fully prepared for it yet.




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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/1/2021 1:32:07 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front, July 3, 1915. 1st Battle of the Isonzo

Even though Italy hasn't build up its strength sufficient to take on Trento...a hasty assault on the Isonzo sector proved successful..giving about 50% damage to the defending AH corp deployed on the south flank of their line. I'm sure Austria-Hungary will have a response to this foray...which probably wasn't too wise. :)





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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/1/2021 1:42:47 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/1/2021 11:56:45 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

This is the initial moves for Italy. In this game, sadly for the Entente, the 2 Italian HQs are a 2 and a 5 quality. (In some matches I have been lucky enough to get 6's for both that spawn upon the outbreak of war.) So..I will have to wait for the decision that comes up that options the Cadorna (6) HQ and decide whether to spend the MMP on it or not...sack one of these knuckleheads...or spend the money on research and/or unit strength.


Italy is scripted to receive the Duke of Aosta and Brusati, who have a rating of 5 and 2 respectively.

This will rise if Command and Control is successfully researched, so the former could arrive at 6, but Brusati couldn't.

Are you able to advise what the names of your HQs are in games when they have both arrived with higher ratings?

< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 2/1/2021 12:00:25 PM >


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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/2/2021 2:37:17 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

This is the initial moves for Italy. In this game, sadly for the Entente, the 2 Italian HQs are a 2 and a 5 quality. (In some matches I have been lucky enough to get 6's for both that spawn upon the outbreak of war.) So..I will have to wait for the decision that comes up that options the Cadorna (6) HQ and decide whether to spend the MMP on it or not...sack one of these knuckleheads...or spend the money on research and/or unit strength.


Italy is scripted to receive the Duke of Aosta and Brusati, who have a rating of 5 and 2 respectively.

This will rise if Command and Control is successfully researched, so the former could arrive at 6, but Brusati couldn't.

Are you able to advise what the names of your HQs are in games when they have both arrived with higher ratings?


Can't remember but I thought I had two '6' HQ's on a former match..but I probably am mistaken.

This front is usually quiet till 1916..and its Germans usually making a go at Udine then beyond. Anyway..the next turn on this test they are 6 and 3 respectfully...and I will have to have Aosta into the hottest part of the front..which is turning into the Isonzo sector for the time being. Thats ok though for we can go back to May 15 at a later time and just test an AH corp in Trento Fortress.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/2/2021 2:49:53 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front July 10, 1915

The Austro-Hungarians counter attack the damaged Italian corp at Udine...but can't dislodge it. Another corp moves on down the valley from the north..and Udine is under siege.

Other news in Europe that will have a bearing here: Cetinje falls and Montenegro surrenders. Nish will probably fall next turn, and Serbia has had all convoy routes down for a few turns. Bulgaria is going to enter the War.

With this new and other favorable events...Austria-Hungary sent an HQ from the Serbian Front up to the Alpine Front. (my partner on this hotseat hasn't told me who it is lol)




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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/2/2021 11:12:34 PM   
Dazo


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Looks good so far, thanks for the test OldCrowBalthazor :) .

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/3/2021 12:26:58 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dazo

Looks good so far, thanks for the test OldCrowBalthazor :) .


Thanks Dazo!

And thanks for your work with the Schlieffen Plan study...that spurred me to look at that strategy more formally in the context of this game and its mechanics. And then...there was 'that' one extra AP deal you and Chernobyl sussed out, haha...that was driving me bat s#@% crazy trying to reproduce it again when attacking Brussels...until you guys brought in to my attention that 'It' was something really happening lol.

Cheers..and there's more to come here with this test.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/3/2021 2:26:32 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front July 17, 1915

Italy's premature attack on the Isonzo is proving to be a potential disaster. Most of Italy's limited MMP's have gone into replacing losses. Italy does have 2 chits into Trench Warfare..but has little else to spare.

Attacks on Trento are not feasible as it stands as a Fortress at this time. (If not a fortress..I would risk it to gain the NM points... if Trento is gained in vanilla, it would send Italys NM score to 114%).

The French had to divert one corp that was earmarked for Albania to the Trento sector to shore up Italy. There is other modest help going over to beleaguered Serbia..but Greece isn't in the war yet so things are not rosy over across the Adriatic.





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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/3/2021 3:20:53 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front July 24, 1915

Germany just gained Inf Warfare 1 and swapped out the Ger. XVIII corp with the AH X corp in Trento Fortress. Austria-Hungary is at 67% towards Inf Warfare 1 also. The KuK on the Isonzo sector entrenches and is considering Udine as a potential target.

The Russians are making a huge nuisance in Galicia and East Prussia for the CP. France is also recovering after a fashion...but are still down with quite a few corps to rebuild. Still...the Western Front is deadlocked..and Germany is focused in the East for now. A few newly formed German detachments are deployed in Bavaria as a reserve.

The Alpine Front is still a side show...and not quite stabilized, at least for Italy.




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/5/2021 8:09:14 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/3/2021 6:02:29 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front July 31, 1915

Italy is in a tough position. They should of occupied the far NE corner of their territory to secure Udine's left flank before the declaration of war. At this moment..Italy has 2 chits in Trench Warfare, and after a hard decision, invested 125 MMP's in Infantry Warfare.

Her Adriatic coastline is almost wide open...but at least the Entente has a strong naval presence to thwart any CP adventures there. The biggest danger Italy has short term is to get in attritional warfare with the Central Powers.

At least, so far...with Austria-Hungary having a fortress at Trento...the Italians or other Entente forces didn't simply steam roll over that location...which is extremely likely and very common as it stands now with vanilla. I like how this front feels with the addition of a Fortress at Trento and High Mountains placed around the Alta Adige...even with my less than optimal deployment of the Italians in this particular test.






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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/3/2021 6:04:40 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/3/2021 6:56:35 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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OCB, the other variation to possibly try out would be to not use German units there at all because Italy and Germany were not at war until August 1916. Could the A-H spare enough units to still defend the area properly in 1915/6? Without the German units there would it be possible for the initial Italian mobilisation to be slowed down a bit? They were only expecting to fight a limited war against Austria-Hungary for Trento, Trieste and Fiume (not Salzburg!).

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/3/2021 8:16:31 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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We are doing an Austrian only test atm and will post it later. The one featured now we ran last weekend..the editing took longer.

I don't know how as the game stands you could restrict Germany when they historically entered and operated in Austro-Hungarian territory short of cordoning off Tyrolia. I understand your point about the non-war status between Italy and Germany till 1916...but the scope of this test is to see if Trento made as a fortress would unbalance the game.

We are curious about keeping this front fandango just between Italy and AH as it was historical in 1915, but the first test we played it like we would normally in a MP with the current rules...with the addition of a fortress at Trento and high mountains around the Alta Adige.

cheers.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/3/2021 8:48:35 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

I don't know how as the game stands you could restrict Germany when they historically entered and operated in Austro-Hungarian territory short of cordoning off Tyrolia. I understand your point about the non-war status between Italy and Germany till 1916...but the scope of this test is to see if Trento made as a fortress would unbalance the game.



Yes, I am thinking one step further on here. I think the fortress idea works fine. I have added it to my mod, as well as the High Mountain hexes, and it does improve the situation somewhat. However, the Italian AI scripting still needs adjusting so that they drive across the Isonzo towards Trieste first, before turning northwards towards Vienna afterwards.

How did it work in the Alpha or Beta stage? I think it might have been Bill who told me that players found it confusing that Germany and Italy were not immediately at war with each other. I suppose one way of triggering war between Germany and Italy is if units of the two sides came within a certain distance of each other - maybe 3 hexes? Could a script be written to cope with that? A DE event could fire and if German and Italian units remained within that distance for a further turn then war would be triggered. Something like that anyway.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/4/2021 5:52:03 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front Aug 7 1915, 2nd Battle of the Isonzo

Well, things are interesting. Four AH corps under Von Bohm-Ermolli Hq (4) attacked Undine..but didn't take it. The experienced Italian V corp held on but was reduced to a strength of 3. I thought for sure Undine would fall. We decided to pull a few more turns with this test to see what happens here. I will post them in the next few days to a final...and give our conclusions on this modification for vs humans. I haven't tried the AI but may at some later date.

We have been doing a second test with just the Austro-Hungarians vs the Italians (no Germans) with this Trento Fortress/Alta Adige High Mountain edit, but I'm not sure if I should post it on this thread, start a new one, or start it in the War Room.

Fun stuff...cheers




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/4/2021 5:55:52 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/4/2021 6:05:05 AM   
stockwellpete

 

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OK, OCB. Very interesting mini AAR this is. The mountainous hex to the north of Udine is an important one for the Italians to try and hold, isn't it? The A-H have to attack Udine across the river if they don't have it.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/4/2021 6:12:30 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stockwellpete

OK, OCB. Very interesting mini AAR this is. The mountainous hex to the north of Udine is an important one for the Italians to try and hold, isn't it? The A-H have to attack Udine across the river if they don't have it.


Yep...I didn't make that mistake on the second test that we will feature later. With this one, I was focused on Trento. When my friend Dark Taboo took over the CP...he jumped right in to that corner above Udine haha.

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/4/2021 6:16:31 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/5/2021 4:36:45 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front Aug 14, 1915, 3rd Battle of the Isonzo

Four Italian corps under the Duke of Aosta counter attack the KuK IX corp, and completely destroy it as it rains in the Alps. The mauled Italian V corp is pulled out of Udine just prior to the counter attack. Quite frankly, I was surprised how well this went. :)

The Italians invest one more chit into Trench Warfare..making it 3 total. They have 1 chit in Infantry Warfare crawling along..and save 75 MMP's for the next turn. (I normally spent MMP's as soon as I get them but I want options for repairing the V corps and/or other research the next few turns.)




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/5/2021 8:16:54 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/5/2021 6:13:22 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front Aug 21, 1915

The chastised Austro-Hungarians quit their attacks on the Isonzo sector and rebuild their forces. The XVI corp in Cetinje is operated up to Trieste. A detachment is thrown on the line to temporarily block the Italians. The AH X corp is force marched from the Trento sector to the Isonzo sector.

The Germans just achieve Trench Warfare 3...so are using concrete now in their entrenchments. Trento Fortress will be at a 6 strength in entrenchment level next turn..but their supply is down to 6...the town its self is 5. Brunbeck is 8 and is lending its supply to Trento.

Trento Fortress will be close to impregnable unless Entente artillery is brought over...but that option is highly unlikely for the near future as both sides are locked in on the Western Front...where any available artillery will be needed.




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/5/2021 8:24:25 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/5/2021 12:14:51 PM   
shri

 

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Sounds damn interesting. Thanks OldCrow and others.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/5/2021 11:49:06 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front Aug 28, 1915 (TEST FINAL)

Italy decides to hunker down and not be tempted to attack across the Isonzo this year. They have Trench Warfare 1 with 3 chits in. They also have Infanry Weapons invested now and Infantry Warfare at about 10%. Nothing for their navy at the time being...and hopefully for them...a quiet autumn and winter so they can look more at other research, even if modest.

I really like this set up adding a fortress on Trento, and the inclusion of the high mountains for the Alta Adige.
We are doing a second test that restricts the Germans from entering this theater in 1915. Its in a full campaign mileu...I believe I will post it in the WAR ROOM.

After that test is done...I am thinking to upload this as a simple mod so that others can use it in a PM. That is, unless the Dev's consider it as an addition to the game in an overall in a patch.

Thanks for the views and the comments!




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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/5/2021 11:57:48 PM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front Aug 28, 1915 (TEST FINAL)

Entente Supply POV




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/5/2021 11:58:25 PM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/6/2021 12:08:24 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Alpine Front Aug 28, 1915 (TEST FINAL)

Terrain and Resource overview. Note how the passive siege of Trento by the Italians has degraded Trento from a 10 strength resource to a 4 (From Italy's June 5th declaration of war to Aug 28th)




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/6/2021 12:10:22 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/8/2021 1:15:32 PM   
shri

 

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Ok, dumb Q- if the resource value decreases from 10 to 4, will supply also decrease?

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/8/2021 1:48:46 PM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shri

Ok, dumb Q- if the resource value decreases from 10 to 4, will supply also decrease?


Yup. But it won't matter as hugely as that, as Bruneck is at 8 so a unit in Trento will be at 6.

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/9/2021 1:42:38 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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The Land is correct, but it was a good question Shri. The reduction of Trento is dynamically being reduced with its own supply..but a few turns ago the location stopped falling any more because of Bruneck I had posted that imformation on an earlier post on this thread, but it wasn't quite as clear as I wished.

Anyway, this study was fascinating not only to find out the merits of adding a fortress to the town resource, but the supply implications for the Alps also needed to be investigated...especially when adding the high mountains to the Alta Adige region. Cheers.

Central Powers supply p.o.v. late August 1915




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< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 2/9/2021 1:45:32 AM >

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RE: Trento and Alpine Front edit - 2/9/2021 3:59:20 AM   
Chernobyl

 

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So what is going on with artillery? Why has neither side karted over one of those monsters? Care to elaborate? :)

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