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Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships in a group

 
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Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships in ... - 1/1/2021 12:21:03 AM   
DWReese

 

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I had something that is kind of interesting in the game occur that I think might be of some interest to scenario designers.

I have a Marine ARG LHD ESSEX, LPD ANCHORAGE, and the LSD RUSHMORE in the same group. Each of those three has several MV-22 OSPREY on board. ESSEX has the most. The group was tasked with a CARGO MISSION of landing marines on an island. This all worked perfectly.

On the way back, I noticed that some of the units from the ESSEX landed on the ANCHORAGE, and some from the ANCHORAGE landed on the RUSHMORE. And, in an even stranger event, some landed on the two Arleigh BURKE destroyers that were escorting them. In short, the MV-22s are now spread out all over the group.

It's not a big deal, but it did catch me off guard. Usually, if you have a carrier group, the group only has one carrier, so the returning planes have no other choice but to land on the carrier. But, since these three AVIATION SHIPS could all handle the MV-22 OSPREY, it appears that the helos merely choose to land on whatever ship within the GROUP that can handle them, in whatever order.

Has anyone else ever experienced this? Again, it makes no difference to me, but if you were a scenario designer, then this tidbit may be of some importance to you.

Thanks, and Happy New Year!

EDIT: A file has been uploaded. The first group of helos (which took off from the ESSEX) will likely land elsewhere.

Doug

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DWReese -- 1/1/2021 3:29:55 AM >
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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:22:13 AM   
stww2

 

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This situation strike me as pretty bizarre. You are of course right that there are usually not more than two carriers in a group so, but in principle I don't see why the scenario described above should be any different than one in which ASW helicopters, operating from multiple different ships within a single surface group, conduct their missions and return to base. Generally, ASW helicopters are of a similar size, so any ship in the group that is able to serve as a base for one should in principle be able to serve as a base for others. Yet I can't remember ever encountering an instance in which an ASW helicopter has landed on a different ship than the one it was based on originally (excluding, of course, instances in which the original base was sunk in the interim). But maybe I'm the exception, or maybe there is something special about Ospreys, or about cargo missions as far as the game is concerned which leads to the manifestation of this issue? Either way this sounds like a bug to me.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:39:32 AM   
thewood1

 

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Can you post that scenario? I have never had a mission return aircraft to the wrong base/ship. I have several scenarios with multi-carrier groups and every time I launch missions, I check the flights base. Never had one land on anything but the original based ship.

Edit: Just tested a group with two CVNs, and LHA, and and LHD. Launched F/A-18s, MV-22s, and a knighthawk. Tried with missions and without. I even moved the base ship so that each flight would have to fly over another base-capable ship or carrier. Every flight returned to the original base ship. I didn't play around with cargo missions much because the scenario I'm using isn't a fit. I'll play with it tomorrow.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 1/1/2021 2:05:18 AM >

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 2:59:39 AM   
thewood1

 

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Just ran a modded cargo tutorial. Added an extra LHD with MV-22s and infantry cargo. Made a group of the two LHDs. Added the new LHD's Ospreys to the mission. All Ospreys returned to the original base LHDs. Again, tried different positions of ships, etc. and can't see any Ospreys decking on the wrong ships.

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 3:36:26 AM   
DWReese

 

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I added the file to my original post, which I neglected to include the first time around.

The helos are returning from their cargo mission (this is a sandbox, so you can disregard the rest of the occurrences in the scenario). The helos will begin landing soon, and they when they do they will land on whatever ships seem to have space.

You are correct about the ASW planes landing on their respective ships. I have never seen this before. The ARG GROUP seems to act more like a total base, rather than a group of individual individual hangers.

Maybe it's a bug, and maybe not. I don't know. I was really just interested to see if anyone else had ever noticed that.

Doug



< Message edited by DWReese -- 1/1/2021 4:06:43 AM >

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 3:49:07 AM   
thewood1

 

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For one, you have the entire group Essex ARG assigned as the mothership and each of the Ospreys has that group assigned as its base. I am not even sure how you can do that. But thats why they are landing all over the place. There is something going on with how those missions were built and the Ospreys were assigned. Do you have a copy of the scenario before the aircraft launched?

edit: I noticed a couple odd things with the scenario. The Burke is getting 5 of the Ospreys. It should only have a capacity of 2. Also, the db is over two years old. There have been a lot of changes since then, including the transition from CMNAO to CMO. I have tried everything to duplicate the issue outsider this scenario and can't. I'll see if rebuilding the scenario does anything.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 1/1/2021 4:44:41 AM >

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:26:19 PM   
tmoilanen

 

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I've seen this happen when the aircraft are added to a Group instead of an individual ship. It can also occur if a Group is selected as the destination for a ferry mission instead of an individual ship.

Check to ensure that the assigned base for the aircraft is the LHD and not the group.


< Message edited by tmoilanen -- 1/1/2021 1:27:55 PM >

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:30:23 PM   
BDukes

 

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I've seen this on two occasion

1)Updating to new db.
2)One time move unit a significant distance across globe. Never happen again so forgot about

Wood comment is actually what I'd look at. If its specify the group as homebase it maybe logically pick any open spot rather than Carrier.

Thank!

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:40:45 PM   
DWReese

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tmoilanen

I've seen this happen when the aircraft are added to a Group instead of an individual ship. It can also occur if a Group is selected as the destination for a ferry mission instead of an individual ship.

Check to ensure that the assigned base for the aircraft is the LHD and not the group.


quote:

I've seen this happen when the aircraft are added to a Group instead of an individual ship. It can also occur if a Group is selected as the destination for a ferry mission instead of an individual ship.


What you say makes total sense, but that isn't the case. The aircraft are all specifically assigned (and realistically named) to those individual ships.

Doug

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:46:51 PM   
DWReese

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes

I've seen this on two occasion

1)Updating to new db.
2)One time move unit a significant distance across globe. Never happen again so forgot about

Wood comment is actually what I'd look at. If its specify the group as homebase it maybe logically pick any open spot rather than Carrier.

Thank!

quote:

I've seen this on two occasion

1)Updating to new db.
2)One time move unit a significant distance across globe. Never happen again so forgot about


Bill,

As you can see, I did NOT update the database. The database is still the one that the scenario was created in (478, and the current is 487). So, that isn't the case.

The ARG group was created after the individual ships were placed at that location. The aircraft were added and named to each individual ship, and then the ships were grouped together in the usual way. So, there was no globe-trotting for this group. <lol>

I guess that this situations merits some more investigation. <G>

Doug

< Message edited by DWReese -- 1/1/2021 2:53:32 PM >

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:48:26 PM   
thewood1

 

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Can you send the scenario before the mission took off or was built?

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 1:51:23 PM   
DWReese

 

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If you let the scenario play out (which I just did) I noticed that FIVE of the OSPREY end up landed on one of the Arleigh Burke destroyers. We all know that that destroyer can't actually house FIVE aircraft, so there is something odd going on.

Doug

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 2:28:29 PM   
Eboreg

 

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I actually had this happen in one of my scenarios where some F-35Bs were landing on the helicopter decks of aviation capable destroyers. I soon realized that the aircraft were assigned to the carrier group and not the carrier itself. I don't know how I fixed that but I would suggest removing the aircraft then adding them back to each carrier in Unit View.

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 2:52:26 PM   
DWReese

 

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I believe that you are correct. It does appear that the planes are viewing the GROUP of ships as their available base, rather than seeking the individual ship from whence they came.

Upon watching the aircraft they indicate that they are "37 nm from the ARG GROUP instead of the ESSEX (ship not specifically indicated). In contrast, planes from the aircraft carrier on the other side of the scenario, state that they are "(X-number of) nm from the John STENNIS (specifically mentioned). This would lead you to believe that the carrier IS identified as being their ship. Now, the carrier was the only specified aviation ship, so they didn't really have a choice.

Regardless of this, the FIVE MV-22Bs should still not be allowed to land on a single destroyer, so there is something that isn't quite right.

Doug

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 3:17:14 PM   
thewood1

 

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"Regardless of this, the FIVE MV-22Bs should still not be allowed to land on a single destroyer, so there is something that isn't quite right"

Thats why I mentioned the old db.

Also, as I stated, I ran my test with two carriers, an LHD, etc. and each departing helo and plane returned to the correct ship and had that specific ship listed as the home base. There is something unusual in how the ARG group was created and assigned to the cargo mission in your scenario. I have rebuilt part of the scenario with a new group that duplicates the ARG group and the missions. The Ospreys have no issues returning to their ships in that one.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 3:53:18 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I believe that you are correct. It does appear that the planes are viewing the GROUP of ships as their available base, rather than seeking the individual ship from whence they came.

Upon watching the aircraft they indicate that they are "37 nm from the ARG GROUP instead of the ESSEX (ship not specifically indicated). In contrast, planes from the aircraft carrier on the other side of the scenario, state that they are "(X-number of) nm from the John STENNIS (specifically mentioned). This would lead you to believe that the carrier IS identified as being their ship. Now, the carrier was the only specified aviation ship, so they didn't really have a choice.

Regardless of this, the FIVE MV-22Bs should still not be allowed to land on a single destroyer, so there is something that isn't quite right.

Doug


Yes I think you've done your due diligence. I would put in bug report and let the guys who get paid to do, take a look.

Are you able to fix and move forward?




(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 4:18:08 PM   
DWReese

 

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I will do what Eboreg suggested. I will delete the planes, and then add them again. I'll see if that does the trick.

As a final test, I even launched only SIX OSPREY from the group, leaving the destroyer's helo on the ship, and 5 of the OSPREY still landed on the destroyer, giving the destroyer SIX aircraft. Strangely, still, none of the returning OSPREY landed back on the ESSEX.

I do believe that you might be right as well. I believe that many of the abnormalities that occur with CMO are often associated with database changes, or updates to the game that somehow aren't completely compatible with previous databases, etc. This is understandable. We will never know for sure because we "can't see under the hood", but I've seen it on more than one occasion where database changes (or the lack thereof) were the culprit.

Thanks for your (and Eboreg's) interest and suggestions.

Doug


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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 4:34:22 PM   
thewood1

 

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I would suggest breaking up the group and reassembling it. When I did that, along with rebuilding the missions, that helped.

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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/1/2021 4:58:23 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I will do what Eboreg suggested. I will delete the planes, and then add them again. I'll see if that does the trick.

As a final test, I even launched only SIX OSPREY from the group, leaving the destroyer's helo on the ship, and 5 of the OSPREY still landed on the destroyer, giving the destroyer SIX aircraft. Strangely, still, none of the returning OSPREY landed back on the ESSEX.

I do believe that you might be right as well. I believe that many of the abnormalities that occur with CMO are often associated with database changes, or updates to the game that somehow aren't completely compatible with previous databases, etc. This is understandable. We will never know for sure because we "can't see under the hood", but I've seen it on more than one occasion where database changes (or the lack thereof) were the culprit.

Thanks for your (and Eboreg's) interest and suggestions.

Doug




Great thanks Doug and very much agree. They are lucky to have a player that digs so deeply into issues! Happy New Year!

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Interesting occurrence with Multiple Aviation Ships... - 1/2/2021 1:23:07 AM   
DWReese

 

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I played around with this some more this evening.

You suggested deleting the helos and then adding them back to the ESSEX. I do believe that that would work, but it is definitely tedious.

As an alternative, I instead detached every ship from the group, and then I grouped them all together once again. I did have to rename the group, and re-enter its path and speed, but after that the aircraft were ASSIGNED directly to the ship and not the group. (Good call by you.)

As a test, the helos all launched and returned to the ESSEX, as expected.

It still doesn't explain why FIVE of them had previously landed on an Arleigh Burke destroyer. That was probably because they were all thought to be part of a unified floating base. That is probably a bug, but is seldom ever seen, so it therefore went unnoticed.

Thanks again for your help.

Doug

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