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RE: Balance Thread - 12/30/2020 10:57:26 PM   
Flaviusx


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The allies have no real ability to make the Germans bleed in France.

If you are very lucky and the German overtextends you might snipe one mech corps or somesuch thing. That's really not much. In the air the Luftwaffe is more dominant now than ever before.

I wish people would stop advising allied players to throw away the British military in France. It doesn't work. The most you can realistically hope for is to draw it out until early August. You will certainly not bleed the Germans in France.

If the German is foolish, he can bleed himself by extending operations in the latter half of 1940. But that is beyond the allied player's control. If the German is wise and limits himself after France and builds up you cannot stop this.

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RE: Balance Thread - 12/30/2020 11:01:06 PM   
battlevonwar


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Flaviusx, people got really good at France cause it's a quick and continuous campaign. Plus patches have weakened the French. I use to lose 400 Manpower there and 150 Air. French use to be so thick you were stuck!

I used French and British Armor and had it used against me trying to get the bloody Surrender to kill nearly every Axis Armor in France.

Now what I do is go slowwwwwwww... People that know how to do it will do it easy. There is about 5-6 Less French Infantry Corp and now people know how to pump in 2 or 3 more German Armor. Simple solution is give the French a Heavy Armor! See if that helps?

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Post #: 92
RE: Balance Thread - 12/30/2020 11:03:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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Taking the NA colonials away from France definitely helped. But I honestly never found France hard even before then. France is easy.

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Post #: 93
RE: Balance Thread - 12/30/2020 11:06:19 PM   
battlevonwar


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Use Truck Supply on the RAF ... Disband the French Air after the first few hits on them. Disband the French Bomber immediately. Focus on Interceptors(tech is key)

You retreat too soon, Make the guy bang his head on the entrenched units that can retreat, then retreat them. Wear 'em out. Sometimes taking losses is okay.

French Defense is much weaker now then before! But no Yugoslavia so that is -1000 Production ... even trade?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Taking the NA colonials away from France definitely helped. But I honestly never found France hard even before then. France is easy.


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Post #: 94
RE: Balance Thread - 12/30/2020 11:08:33 PM   
Flaviusx


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I think France is fine as is. It's not what I'm looking at. It just irritates me when people say "fight harder in France" in order to balance the Germans. Um. No.

France is easy and ought to be easy.

These expedients you recommend will not make a lick of difference.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/30/2020 11:09:18 PM >


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RE: Balance Thread - 12/30/2020 11:11:54 PM   
ncc1701e


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Easy for you but looks like I am definitely bad (for now). Also, as Allies, if we can avoid the micromanagement of swifting the 50% experience unit of the Maginot line with the others at 40%.
The French army in Belgium was not as bad as the guys from the Maginot Line. Put everything at 40%.




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Post #: 96
RE: Balance Thread - 12/30/2020 11:19:24 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Another question, what are you planning for "the Western Allies are too strong in 1943"?

Quite honestly, the UK has too much production too early. This plus the fact that now Germany has to face Netherlands, Belgium, France at the same time.
The United Kingdom starts with 158 PP, it is bigger than the USSR with 135 PP.

Understood UK needs to buy ships but they are not suffering enough from U-Boats. In John Ellis' book (page 280), UK had invested in:
1939: 22 destroyers, 5 escorts
1940: 27 destroyers, 109 escorts
1941: 39 destroyers, 87 escorts
1942: 73 destroyers, 71 escorts
1943: 37 destroyers, 79 escorts
1944: 31 destroyers, 55 escorts
1945: 13 destroyers, 7 escorts

Who honestly is buying DD groups to pursue the U-Boats? Me, as Allies player, never.

And, I have plenty to buy tanks, mechanized, airborne units in 1941..
UK production is too strong too early imo.


I agree with Oxfordguy's comments above. The UK and the US have already been considerably nerfed with the last few patches. Or more correctly, the nerfing of the CVs ability to sink subs has considerably increased the effectiveness of the U-Boats. If you have read MM's recent AARs you would know that from mid 1940 on almost all of the UKs (and Canada's) production is being spent on escorts and MMs. In my current game against MM where I am the Allies it is now September 27 1940. Canada has used 95% of its production on escorts. The UK did build some army units along with escorts and MM. I have not has any spare production to build new air units; which of course historically the UK did. I anticipate that most of the UKs production over the next couple years will be spent on escorts and MM.

IMHO this has gone too far. The Western Allies in 1943 should be very strong. Historically, by the summer of 1943 they had way more ships, planes, men and tanks in Western Europe than the Axis. So much so that the US wanted to invade France in 43 and they very nearly won this argument. But i don't think that will be the case in future games.

I agree with your post that in the game the UK does not build nearly as many combat ships as it did historically. But this is also true of the Axis. The next game where I see the Tirpitz sailing the high seas will be my first. Part of the problem with this is that they are just too damn expensive; especially compared to the bang you can get for your buck spending the production elsewhere. I agree with Oxfordguy that the cost of building an escort group represents the construction of both destroyers and frigates. I believe patrol groups area actually primarily light cruisers. I would like to see it where a each nation receives certain levels of production in each of the areas of army, naval, and air. In other words, instead of, for example, Germany starting with 200 production that it can spend on anything; it would receive 120 production to spend on army type builds (which would include supply trucks), 30 to spend on naval units and 50 to spend on air units. Meanwhile the UK's production would be split 50% naval, 30% army and 20% air. But if you did this then you would have to be able to spend on building units in stages. So if an armour costs 400 and takes 15 turns to build than you would spend 27 production per turn to build it. Players could also invest production to increase their capacity in each area (lie building shipyards).


In your game versus MM, I don't see you investing heavily in Merchants or in Escorts using UK production. Only Canadian are building escorts:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4928467


< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 12/30/2020 11:20:16 PM >


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RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 12:09:15 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Right now the changes are what I have said.

Mech/Armor does seems to be the main driver of action here on all fronts. While the Axis are limited the Allies generally are not. But we have to see with the new oil adjustments with 1.00.09 for the Allies. I know I now have to manage oil a little as the UK until the USA can give me some. As the US I am building more MM, ES, SY, LC, TR

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Post #: 98
RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 1:54:34 AM   
malkarma

 

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If the present mechanics of BoA makes that the UK will be so busy securing the convoy lanes that wil be unable to launch a big invasion in 1942, then they are working as intended. Obviously, as soon as the USA enters the war the western allies production will skyrocket and will be ready to operate in 1943. Seems fine to me. What is was nonsensical was the UK launching an Overlord size invasion 2 years before the historic data and without needing the US support.

Now, we need to wait to the Beta with the changes to the Eastern Front and see how things develop.

ps: Regarding balance we need to realize that excepcional players are going to be killing machines no matter what Alvaro modifies. However, there are lot more of mid level players (including myself) should be the target of the balance changes. No offence intended here, but we can't make continuous changes because players like Battlevonwar, MagicMissile or Flaviusx crush any kind of iteration of the URSS defence. They are going to do it no matter what because they are elite players. However we need to check how the average grognard is doing there. But this is only my opinion, and opinions are like arses...everbody have one

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RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 2:00:54 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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I got some bugs I am working on buy Friday morning there should be a new beta up.

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RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 5:57:58 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

If you reduce British morale France will be even easier than it is now, and the Axis might steamroll Egypt to boot. Also, what gamey stuff in 1940-1? What I have found is the BoA soaks up so much production that the UK is definitely on hold until the Americans come in.




+1. The only exception is if the Germans don't build any U-Boats or otherwise challenge the UK in 1940.

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RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 6:03:29 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Flavius, 15-20 Mechs and Armor are insane! You have to do something... Come up with something better? Or resign the Axis against any competent Allied opponent every Winter of '43

As Axis you cannot build that many armor and Mechs and you start with 4!
Now Russia has the same number by late '43 ... Just too much!

Somethings gotta give! Somewhere!



Is this in game using 1.00.09 that the Western Allies built 15 - 20 Mechs? If so, how many U-Boats did you build and in what year did they have the 15 -20 Mechs.

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RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 6:06:43 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Not sure what Subs do now but I put 6 out in my last game and the entire Kriegsmarine and Sveint sunk them all! Bad luck? I hope not but I fear that the Atlantic War just is a bit too difficult... Axis can't bite that off and build enough armor and air/infantry to handle the rest of things!



It is not so much that subs do more damage, but that they can no longer be targeted by CVs (unless they end their turn in a coastal hex). This means that the the only way to damage U-Boats is with escorts and it is virtually impossible to sink them until late in the War. You should read MMs AARs.

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Post #: 103
RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 6:38:25 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

I agree with Oxfordguy's comments above. The UK and the US have already been considerably nerfed with the last few patches. Or more correctly, the nerfing of the CVs ability to sink subs has considerably increased the effectiveness of the U-Boats. If you have read MM's recent AARs you would know that from mid 1940 on almost all of the UKs (and Canada's) production is being spent on escorts and MMs. In my current game against MM where I am the Allies it is now September 27 1940. Canada has used 95% of its production on escorts. The UK did build some army units along with escorts and MM. I have not has any spare production to build new air units; which of course historically the UK did. I anticipate that most of the UKs production over the next couple years will be spent on escorts and MM.



In your game versus MM, I don't see you investing heavily in Merchants or in Escorts using UK production. Only Canadian are building escorts:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4928467



Not quite. I said that from mid 1940 on almost all of the UKs production will go towards escorts and MS. So from the beginning of the game until March 1 1940 (6 months) the UK production was used almost exclusively to build new army units and build up the understrength units that the UK starts with. But from April 1940 on all new UK production has been escorts and merchant marine. In reviewing my AAR I see that I forgot to record my builds for several of the turns in the spring and summer of 1940. When I next get a turn I will try and remember to take a screenshot of my production queues. Also I am afraid that I may have waited too long to start building escorts and MM with the UK.

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RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 6:40:51 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Right now the changes are what I have said.

Mech/Armor does seems to be the main driver of action here on all fronts. While the Axis are limited the Allies generally are not. But we have to see with the new oil adjustments with 1.00.09 for the Allies. I know I now have to manage oil a little as the UK until the USA can give me some. As the US I am building more MM, ES, SY, LC, TR


+1 Thank you Alvaro. I think the game may be nicely balanced now. I will know more once my AARs with MM are complete.

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RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 9:49:18 AM   
battlevonwar


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Flaviusx,

I think leaving France to fall in June/Early July which is what is possible is opening the doorway to a definite MidEast/Gibraltar Axis Strategy. If France isn't holding on into August(preferably September) I have a feeling a game is going to end really quickly vs an Axis who gets his fleet out of the Med and gets all the oil it can? Sure, there is a time to leave and Production and Manpower really aren't an issue for the British. Just keeping Mideast and the UK?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I think France is fine as is. It's not what I'm looking at. It just irritates me when people say "fight harder in France" in order to balance the Germans. Um. No.

France is easy and ought to be easy.

These expedients you recommend will not make a lick of difference.


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Post #: 106
RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 9:53:42 AM   
battlevonwar


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HarryBanana, my precise figures I cannot quote. Previous to 1.9 but both Sveint and MagicMissile had no issues placing that number of Mechs/Armor in Spain in 1943. I don't see what would change now? Production is exactly the same and I would be -2 Mechs and a Cas for buying the U-boats and repairing them?

At some point the Allies use to get GREAT at getting U-boats too, so their effectiveness seemed to always disappear in almost every game I played by Winter '42... That or just as swamp of reinforcements from the US/Canadians.

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Post #: 107
RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 10:18:11 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Not quite. I said that from mid 1940 on almost all of the UKs production will go towards escorts and MS. So from the beginning of the game until March 1 1940 (6 months) the UK production was used almost exclusively to build new army units and build up the understrength units that the UK starts with. But from April 1940 on all new UK production has been escorts and merchant marine. In reviewing my AAR I see that I forgot to record my builds for several of the turns in the spring and summer of 1940. When I next get a turn I will try and remember to take a screenshot of my production queues. Also I am afraid that I may have waited too long to start building escorts and MM with the UK.



Thanks for the explanation. Great AAR by the way!

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Post #: 108
RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 1:15:06 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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We do have the new Belgium rule now. So France falling between June and July with a very experienced player at the helm allows them other strategies.

Even a meh player like me can take France by August which allows me some things.

As someone pointed out above about u-boats building escorts and some patrol groups is the key to help. No building a patrol group isn't cost effective for escorting convoys but they do serve a 2nd purpose which is defending a fleet and giving some fodder to the fleets.

As for the UK your main priority during the war is to protect your island. I always struggle with builds for the UK. Then when Barb comes around now I gotta give a good chunk of PPs to the Russians and protect that lane.

As the UK I am kept very busy.

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Post #: 109
RE: Balance Thread - 12/31/2020 7:30:57 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

HarryBanana, my precise figures I cannot quote. Previous to 1.9 but both Sveint and MagicMissile had no issues placing that number of Mechs/Armor in Spain in 1943. I don't see what would change now? Production is exactly the same and I would be -2 Mechs and a Cas for buying the U-boats and repairing them?

At some point the Allies use to get GREAT at getting U-boats too, so their effectiveness seemed to always disappear in almost every game I played by Winter '42... That or just as swamp of reinforcements from the US/Canadians.


Production hasn't changed, but what the UK and USA have to do with their production has. If the Germans build 6 U-Boats (to go with the 3 they start with) and the UK uses it's production to build numerous armour and mech units (rather than escorts and MM) than I can guarantee you that by mid to late 41 the UK will not have any MS left at all (unless it shuts down some convoy routes). Even building 3 extra U-Boats will seriously cripple UK production if they don't build escorts and MM. Also remember that LC now cost 25 each and an invasion of Portugal now triggers Spain. I think the days of the Allies mounting huge invasions with 10+ armour/mech in 42 are over. Well unless the Axis neglect to build U-Boats and instead go "All-in" on Russia by building lots of armour/mechanized units themselves. And in that case I don't think they can really complain.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 12/31/2020 7:31:15 PM >

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RE: Balance Thread - 1/1/2021 11:16:23 AM   
OxfordGuy3


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I thought thought that Germany starts with two U-boats now, not three?

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RE: Balance Thread - 1/1/2021 1:33:31 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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Starts with two and one in the deployment queue

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RE: Balance Thread - 1/1/2021 3:09:17 PM   
battlevonwar


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Lucky U-boats are great but unlucky ones can be hard to ferry back to port/repair and send out again. Had instances were they never need repairing for 10 turns and others were they never make it safely out there more than 1 turn.


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RE: Balance Thread - 1/1/2021 3:15:49 PM   
OxfordGuy3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

Starts with two and one in the deployment queue


Ah, yes.

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RE: Balance Thread - 1/1/2021 4:13:02 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

But they are all 20 at full strength and by the time Barbarossa starts they will be at 20. I wonder if this is a little too good for the Soviets. You can literally build one such corps every turn for two years.

That's a lot of armies. You wouldn't even have to build more of them. Just set production to reinforcements.

I think it would be better if they converted to small armies regardless, and force the Soviet to merge them into full armies.




You are right. That will destroy the entire production mechanism.



Falviusx, at best, how many rifle infantry armies do you have on the front line end of 1941, end of 1942, end of 1943?
Do you have a rough estimate?

We need to fine tune the conversion:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4934884

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 1/3/2021 5:33:29 PM >


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Post #: 115
RE: Balance Thread - 1/4/2021 4:09:53 PM   
battlevonwar


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I just played a game Flaviusx, I am on turn 27 the Opponent against me with pretty good efforts has destroyed about 400+ Land HP. Over 200 Air HP. Of course this was probably with a bit of luck too, I am pretty sure that executing his strategy could yield 300 or 400 every time of Land HP loss and definitely 200 Air HP loss.

Destroyed 2 Corps and in exchange I don't think lost he any land Units but an Armor he sacrificed and since they defend well I paid a lot for it. (So my suggestion was sound to you, it was just the proper execution takes a little adjustment) 1 of my Mechs survived on 1 HP(!) I should of played more conservatively!
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

The allies have no real ability to make the Germans bleed in France.

If you are very lucky and the German overtextends you might snipe one mech corps or somesuch thing. That's really not much. In the air the Luftwaffe is more dominant now than ever before.

I wish people would stop advising allied players to throw away the British military in France. It doesn't work. The most you can realistically hope for is to draw it out until early August. You will certainly not bleed the Germans in France.

If the German is foolish, he can bleed himself by extending operations in the latter half of 1940. But that is beyond the allied player's control. If the German is wise and limits himself after France and builds up you cannot stop this.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 1/4/2021 4:39:50 PM >

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RE: Balance Thread - 1/4/2021 5:07:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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What was this strategy? I'd have to see it to believe it. I especially do not understand how he inflicted so many losses on the Luftwaffe.

If there is a secret sauce here, fess up, don't just give me generalities about what is possible. I want to know exactly what the deal is here.

It is very frustrating to me that you insist that France can be fought for and force the German to bleed and yet you don't explain how. Because I don't see it.

Give me a proper explanation, and I will even play you another game.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/4/2021 5:16:55 PM >


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RE: Balance Thread - 1/4/2021 5:35:13 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Answer this...

As the Allies how many armor/mech do you have by 1943?
UK
USA
USSR

As the Allies how many armor/mech do you have by 1944?
UK
USA
USSR

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Post #: 118
RE: Balance Thread - 1/4/2021 6:38:22 PM   
battlevonwar


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I did make some errors with Mission Settings on my Aircraft. But he stopped fighting my air a long time ago in France. I also put two tired corp too far forward.(without a public AAR you cannot reveal what is being done but if you want me to show you a French Defense that is decent I will)

Though basically, I imagine my opponent used a good deal of truck supply on his planes. Plus took risks. Fought hard. he put road blocks up. He planned out his entrenchment and funneled me into his kill zone. A lot of Axis Players would of quit at France in this game. Though the point is you can't defend/retreat your entrenched positions, there is plenty of mobility on those Armor/Mechs. I can't reveal someone else's secret sauce. You have to exact a toll before you can retreat and figure out the perfect time/spots to do it.

If you had done this to me Barbarossa would have lost about 35% of it's Fangs.

If I played him again it probably would be 375 lost HP for Land and 175 HP Air.. Though I think that's about the best one can expect against someone who has practiced France ...... You got to load up hotseat and play around with the idea.

Also somewhere else I imagine he was vulnerable but I couldn't get there in time!


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

What was this strategy? I'd have to see it to believe it. I especially do not understand how he inflicted so many losses on the Luftwaffe.

If there is a secret sauce here, fess up, don't just give me generalities about what is possible. I want to know exactly what the deal is here.

It is very frustrating to me that you insist that France can be fought for and force the German to bleed and yet you don't explain how. Because I don't see it.

Give me a proper explanation, and I will even play you another game.


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Post #: 119
RE: Balance Thread - 1/4/2021 7:13:40 PM   
Flaviusx


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I think I will wait until the next big patch, thanks.

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WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to battlevonwar)
Post #: 120
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