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OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/19/2020 5:02:33 PM   
Footslogger


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Is this video true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t0jymwyUBs

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/19/2020 5:36:28 PM   
spence

 

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I didn't watch the whole video but it is true. Internationally, both countries were pariahs (for different reasons). Germany got to try out some equipment and tactics that they were prohibited from having by the Treaty of Versailles and the Russians, who had recently lost both WW1 and their invasion of Poland got some valuable training along with some manufacturing experience. Fortunately for Western Allies, Stalin's purges during the late 30s didn't kill off all the soldiers who benefited from the training.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/19/2020 5:53:31 PM   
GetAssista

 

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Did not look through the whole video, but it seems that it mixes up two periods with different Germanies involved. Treaty of Rapallo (1922) between Weimar Germany and USSR was to be expected since both countries were down and looking for friends. Some economic and military cooperation did happen , but that all was first affected by a Great Depression (which hit Germany hard), and then came to a halt with Hitler coming to power in 1933.
Nazi Germany did turn to USSR again in the late 30s - in 1939 the non-aggression pact and the trade treaty were signed. But that did not result in extensive ties, cause there was no time - Barbarossa plan was already drawn. Some resource exports from USSR to Germany happened as a result, but I doubt about any significant tech cooperation. Yet, the non-aggression pact and the trade treaty are believed to be of the main contributing factors to Stalin caught unprepared for 1941

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 12/19/2020 5:55:03 PM >

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/19/2020 7:57:51 PM   
Randy Stead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Is this video true?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t0jymwyUBs




Not 100% true, but informative in the main.

There were a few technical errors which, when they creep into a documentary make me wonder about how valid are its other assertions. For example, the narrator referred to a Panzer V "Tiger." The Tiger was a Panzerkampfwagen VI, the Panther was a PzKw V. Although the Tiger was a 6, it debuted ahead of the 5 because the Panther took longer to develop and deploy. Even then it was rushed into battle, too soon, at Kursk. Many of them never contributed to the battle due to breakdowns.

He also claimed that Germany received inspiraton from the Russians for the concept of dive bombing. Perhaps; I will not be dogmatic about it but I have always read that it was after seeing the American Curtiss dive bomber that they opted for dive bombing and developed the JU-87 Stuka for that role.

The Soviets had a massive tank fleet in the 1930s and into the 1940s. This was, I believe, largely from the influence of Marshall Mikhail Tukhachevsky, who developed the concept of "deep battle" which was then successfully implemented by the Germans. Stalin took advice from older cavalry generals and did not at first share the same enthusiasm for armour as did Tukhachevsky. This led to the Soviets retaining large numbers of horse cavalry. Though cavalry would seem to have been outmoded by the late 1930s, they did prove useful under certain operating conditions.

I think both sides benefited from their co-operation, and perhaps each partner believed they were getting the better end of the partnership. Thought not many today are aware of this pre-war relationship between the two dictatorships, it was an important part of the leadup to WWII.

What I find to be quite cynical on Stalin's part was how he esteemed the French so lowly for submitting to the Germans so soon, yet it was his deal with Hitler that provided Germany with many of the resources that were used to develop the German military. At such meetings as Yalta and Potsdam he gave vent to this scorn and told the western Allies that if they wanted a French occupation zone, they could provide it from their share. Stalin may have blamed the western Allies for their "foot dragging" in establishing a second front, but he seemed not to realize what was involved in building up for an amphibious assault, nor his share in creating the necessity for a second front in the first place!

< Message edited by Randy Stead -- 12/19/2020 8:01:09 PM >

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/19/2020 8:38:11 PM   
mrchuck


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Important to distinguish the pre-war PzKw 5 and 6 from the wartime ones.
The Germans built a few largish tanks with those unofficial numbers in the 30s and used them in Norway for propaganda purposes. They were scrapped or lost during the war, and the numbers were used for Panther and Tiger.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neubaufahrzeug

The number of pilots and tank crew trained in the USSR was tiny and hardly material in the subsequent expansion of the Wehrmacht.Certainly the tank designs--Leichte Traktor and Gross Traktor, above--went nowhere.

There was a strong tradition in the German military (inherited from Prussian notions) of co-operation or even alliance with the USSR i.e. Russia, as one solution to the 'two front problem'. Of course Hitler wasn't having any of it once he came to power.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 12:55:53 AM   
Randy Stead


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Thanks for an informative answer. I was unaware of the pre-war usage of 5 and 6 for tanks. That's why I don't like to be dogmatic about things; there may be somebody who knows something you don't. Always be open to learning from others.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 8:00:13 AM   
Denniss

 

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Germany used facilities in the soviet union for production and testing of otherwise prohibited armament like large caliber artillery, tanks and aircraft.
Some equipment was shared with the soviet union and that was later used to fight germany. I believe their 75/37mm AA-guns as well as the 45mm AT-gun were derived from german guns developed there. The BMW VI aircraft engine was used by Mikulin as base for several of his tank and aircraft engines.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 9:04:34 AM   
fcooke

 

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I think the German CA Lutzow (incomplete) was also sold to the USSR under the aegis of this agreement.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 9:27:16 AM   
Dili

 

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Unfortunately the media and education complex actively censors that part of History. Communists were calling the war against Nazis an Imperialist war for Capitalist profit. Until 22 June 1941. In France and Britain Communist Unions were actively sabotaging the war effort. French Communist Party was forbidden in France in 1939. At least one artist connected to CP-USA in US Pete Seeger released a "pacifist" music album against US help to Britain. He asked the buyers to return it when Soviet Union was attacked by Nazis.

quote:

When work on the gun began at Ruislip, Russia was still an ally of Germany, and Communist agents lost no time in stirring up trouble in the factory. With Ruislip's not getting under way until the end of 1940, the Oerlikon management could not pick and choose their workers; they had to take on a very mixed bag, among them a number of undesirables already dismissed from other factories. Here was fertile ground for Communist propaganda.


https://www.chem.ucl.ac.uk/resources/history/people/goodeve_cf/cfg_bio.html

Then we have the whole Italian-Soviet pact. With Italian fascist companies building warships for Communist navy and NKVD. Destroyer Taskhent was ordered before Spanish Civil War, was build when it occurred and was handed over to Soviet Navy in 1939 just after SCW finished.

That is another fact conveniently forgotten in the post war ideologising of WW2.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 9:29:16 AM   
Dili

 

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quote:

What I find to be quite cynical on Stalin's part was how he esteemed the French so lowly for submitting to the Germans so soon

French communist unions were sabotaging French war effort. That does not happen without a directive from Stalin itself.

< Message edited by Dili -- 12/20/2020 12:38:34 PM >

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 12:29:22 PM   
Shilka

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

I didn't watch the whole video but it is true. Internationally, both countries were pariahs (for different reasons). Germany got to try out some equipment and tactics that they were prohibited from having by the Treaty of Versailles and the Russians, who had recently lost both WW1 and their invasion of Poland got some valuable training along with some manufacturing experience. Fortunately for Western Allies, Stalin's purges during the late 30s didn't kill off all the soldiers who benefited from the training.


Despite the fact that even after the 1917 Brest-Litovsk treaty, some German units continued fighting the red Russians (bolsheviks) in the soon-to-be-born Baltic states, and participated in the Finnish civil war as well during 1918 before the German surrender, there were a lot of co-operation and trading going on during the interwar years regardless of potential differences in political views of the different regimes. Even USA and UK were involved in the Russian civil war, but eventually as the whites lost, it meant their influence in the country was gone. It didn't prevent later co-operation or trading with the Bolshevik regime, although it did produce the original conditions of distrust and coldness between the Bolsheviks and USA/UK. Remember that most large European countries were until that point aristocratic and their relations were mostly based on ruling family blood ties, which was now broken and a boatload of new nations were carved up from the previous German, Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires. Pre-WW1 relations between the largest European nations were actually pretty good (excluding France and Germany).

The German established tank school/proving grounds in Russia was one example, which provided mutual benefits for both. All branches of armed forces in Germany were essentially dismantled and hence they needed to find out different sorts of ways to preserve and develop technical and doctrinal experience. Another example is the naval design shell company established in the Netherlands, which was important for submarine development and probably had influence in the development of Dutch interwar submarines as well. Even Henry Ford, and GM through its Opel subsidiary, were co-operating with the Nazi regime before and somewhat during the war. Yet another example of this type of international co-operation was the Sino-German treaty going on in the interwar years, before and during the Nazi regime and which was ended (somewhat reluctantly) around the time of the tripartite pact to avoid antagonizing Japan.

So the Weimar and preceding Nazi regimes were not internationally that isolated at all.

In the 1930s Germany was a very large (if not largest) and growing economy in Europe which was consuming tremendous amounts of rare metals, for which Russia was a major supplier so trade tended to occur in addition to various forms of co-operation which occurred at the time and earlier. As whatever trade decreased between USA and Germany decreased, the trade with the Soviet Union increased. The trade with some south American countries, notably Argentina and Venezuela were naturally cut off at the start of the war, as well.

< Message edited by Shilka -- 12/20/2020 12:31:23 PM >

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 12:38:17 PM   
Dili

 

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One of significant contribution was the access that Soviets had to the manufacturing techniques of Bf-109 and other aircraft.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 12:41:22 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

So the Weimar and preceding Nazi regimes were not internationally that isolated at all.


Shouldn't that be "So the Weimar and succceding Nazi regimes were not internationally that isolated at all."

Germany used a "trading" Mark or something like that with Latin America which was worth more than the standard Mark, something like 10 more if I remember correctly) but it could only be used to buy German products. For some strange reason, FDR did not like that system.

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 12:56:58 PM   
Dili

 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basis_Nord

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 1:00:22 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?

< Message edited by Orm -- 12/20/2020 1:02:46 PM >


_____________________________

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 1:07:33 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?


The protests were about Lend-Lease and such, the US was not declared actively engaged until Germany declared war on the United States. But why did the protests and such end on the 22nd June 1941, and not on the 7th, 8th, 9th, or the 10th of December 1941?

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 16
RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 1:31:30 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?


The protests were about Lend-Lease and such, the US was not declared actively engaged until Germany declared war on the United States. But why did the protests and such end on the 22nd June 1941, and not on the 7th, 8th, 9th, or the 10th of December 1941?

Yes. I do understand your reasoning. Yet, there is an element of hindsight in it. At least in my humble opinion.

The reasons why people do things can be complicated. Or silly. Or even simple. And the simple reason might indeed be that they were Soviet friendly instead of UK friendly. I think it is more complicated than that. I think most of them were simply US friendly. That they thought it was a silly war they could stay out of. I suspect it was a gradual change from the fall of France to the fall of Greece. But much of that was, I suspect, mere background noise. California, is after all, a really, really, long way from Europe. Why would they bother with what happened over there? No TV to see the suffering of the innocents. But when the silly moustached guy declared war on USSR it went from a conflict over Danzig to a threat to the world as they knew it. Then they realized that the German leader and his cronies were a threat to the world. IF USSR would fall, what could then stop him?

xxxxx

Sweden have gotten some flak during the years for we traded with Germany. Lend-Lease is getting a lot more involved than trading. Yes, I know other stuff happened as well. What I am trying to say is that I think many saw the Lend-Lease as a way for US to get involved in a war they thought US should stay out of.

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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 1:35:45 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?


The protests were about Lend-Lease and such, the US was not declared actively engaged until Germany declared war on the United States. But why did the protests and such end on the 22nd June 1941, and not on the 7th, 8th, 9th, or the 10th of December 1941?

Could you cite your source for saying the protests stopped after 22 June 1941? Charles Lindbergh held very large anti-war rallies after 22 June 1941.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 18
RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 1:43:36 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13180
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?


The protests were about Lend-Lease and such, the US was not declared actively engaged until Germany declared war on the United States. But why did the protests and such end on the 22nd June 1941, and not on the 7th, 8th, 9th, or the 10th of December 1941?

Could you cite your source for saying the protests stopped after 22 June 1941? Charles Lindbergh held very large anti-war rallies after 22 June 1941.


Very simple for Charles Lindbergh. He was a Nazi sympathizer, among other things, which is why he was not called to active duty. The others who quit protesting were Communist/Socialist sympathizers who, for some strange reason, quit protesting aid to the Allies after the 21st of June 1941.

You should check out the names of the people and their occupation that a Senator from Wisconsin who was running for reelection decided to pick on. That happened around 1952.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 19
RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 3:01:55 PM   
Dili

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?


The protests were about Lend-Lease and such, the US was not declared actively engaged until Germany declared war on the United States. But why did the protests and such end on the 22nd June 1941, and not on the 7th, 8th, 9th, or the 10th of December 1941?

Could you cite your source for saying the protests stopped after 22 June 1941? Charles Lindbergh held very large anti-war rallies after 22 June 1941.


Protests by Communist sympathizers ended in 22 June 1941. Pete Seeger released his album Songs for John Doe in May 1941, in June he took it out of selling places and asked everyone who bought it to return. Crime writer Dashiell Hemmet also close to CP-USA stopped his strong isolationist activities.
Likewise French Communists went to be an important part of Resistance but only after 22 June. L'Humanitè the Communist newspaper was still in begin of 1941 trying to be published in Nazi controlled France.

And there is still the Soviet dance with Nazis for Soviet Union to be part of the Axis powers for a time until Hitler made his mind to attack Soviet Union and stopped answering a Soviet negotiating proposals to it.

(in reply to Zorch)
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RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 3:37:14 PM   
Zorch

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?


The protests were about Lend-Lease and such, the US was not declared actively engaged until Germany declared war on the United States. But why did the protests and such end on the 22nd June 1941, and not on the 7th, 8th, 9th, or the 10th of December 1941?

Could you cite your source for saying the protests stopped after 22 June 1941? Charles Lindbergh held very large anti-war rallies after 22 June 1941.


Very simple for Charles Lindbergh. He was a Nazi sympathizer, among other things, which is why he was not called to active duty. The others who quit protesting were Communist/Socialist sympathizers who, for some strange reason, quit protesting aid to the Allies after the 21st of June 1941.

You should check out the names of the people and their occupation that a Senator from Wisconsin who was running for reelection decided to pick on. That happened around 1952.

Lindbergh was not drafted because he was 39 and had dependents and was a consultant to the aircraft industry.
Many people who were not Nazi or Communist sympathizers continued their opposition to the war until after Pearl Harbor.
Citing Joe McCarthy is not a source.

This thread is 2 posts from being locked.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 21
RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 4:14:12 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13180
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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe


quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

Many people in the US, especially those in Hollywood, were against the US supporting Great Britain and the other Allies until 22 June 1941. For some strange reason, their attitude changed that day although I don't recall if they publicly stated why.

Could it be that they didn't want a lot of young Americans dying in yet another European war that didn't need to involve the US?


The protests were about Lend-Lease and such, the US was not declared actively engaged until Germany declared war on the United States. But why did the protests and such end on the 22nd June 1941, and not on the 7th, 8th, 9th, or the 10th of December 1941?

Could you cite your source for saying the protests stopped after 22 June 1941? Charles Lindbergh held very large anti-war rallies after 22 June 1941.


Very simple for Charles Lindbergh. He was a Nazi sympathizer, among other things, which is why he was not called to active duty. The others who quit protesting were Communist/Socialist sympathizers who, for some strange reason, quit protesting aid to the Allies after the 21st of June 1941.

You should check out the names of the people and their occupation that a Senator from Wisconsin who was running for reelection decided to pick on. That happened around 1952.

Lindbergh was not drafted because he was 39 and had dependents and was a consultant to the aircraft industry.
Many people who were not Nazi or Communist sympathizers continued their opposition to the war until after Pearl Harbor.
Citing Joe McCarthy is not a source.

This thread is 2 posts from being locked.


This is history, well over 60 years old, not current politics.

Charles Lindbergh was an Army reserve officer and as such received the Medal Of Honor for his transatlantic flight. He was involved in the America First Committee and resigned his reserve commission in April 1941 when his then rank was Colonel. He was never recalled to duty during World War II but he could have been. He did fly missions in the Pacific as a civilian consultant. He even shot down at least one Japanese aircraft.

He was also an engineer although he did not get his college degree but he did important work that included contributions that led to the first heart-lung machine.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Zorch)
Post #: 22
RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 4:26:01 PM   
Orm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zorch

This thread is 2 posts from being locked.

Lets get this thread back on its original track then.

Besides, I think most of what needed said in the "side-track" has been said.

And, as always, it has been an interesting read.

_____________________________

Have a bit more patience with newbies. Of course some of them act dumb -- they're often students, for heaven's sake. - Terry Pratchett

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Post #: 23
RE: OT: Germans and Russians Working Together? - 12/20/2020 8:04:06 PM   
Dili

 

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Found that wikipedia have an article on Soviet-Germany discussions about Soviet Union entering the Axis pact:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German%E2%80%93Soviet_Axis_talks

(in reply to Orm)
Post #: 24
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