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Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 2:34:42 AM   
76mm


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I've read everything I can find on the new supply system, but am still a bit confused...and I think I recall reading something on the forum on the topic but can't find it now.

So I more or less understand the different effects for the unit, formation, and force supply levels. But I'm still rather unclear on supply points. When should a supply point's supply level be less than 100, for instance? I tried setting some supply points to 50, but all of the "nearby" units turned out to be very short of supplies.

Any tips on this particular issue, or a link to a good discussion on the forum?
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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 3:07:23 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I don't recall any discussion thread on the topic. My two cents would be fairly general and possibly useless - the Supply Level should be set to what works best for a scenario One example would be the Germans in France 1940 where Supply was not an issue and therefore should be set high enough that the player doesn't have worry about it. The opposite example would be Russia 1941 where the German Supply System was a huge issue and the player should have a major headache due to the Supply Setting. So for your example, you need to raise the Supply Points or the Base Supply Level. It's whatever works for each scenario.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 6:03:02 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

Any tips on this particular issue, or a link to a good discussion on the forum?


Not a direct addressing of the issue, but good examples and discussion.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4486293&mpage=1&key=

This is from the TOAW III forum; I wonder if the quote below is still valid.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1754345&mpage=1&key=supply%2Cpoint�

quote:

You only get 2/3 of the stated (base) supply number unless you have an HQ, or a Supply Unit, adjacent. The "bonus" is a multiplication of the 2/3 base by 150%, or 3/2.

In the case of having only one (HQ, or Supply Unit), you end up with (2/3)*(3/2) base = 1 base.

In the case of having both, you end up with (2/3)*(3/2)^2 base = 1.5 base.

This is then further modified by the supply efficiency of the formation, which is a value between .01 and 1.0 and is another multiplicative modifier.


Cheers

< Message edited by cathar1244 -- 12/13/2020 6:10:11 AM >

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 12:57:12 PM   
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quote:

...the Supply Level should be set to what works best for a scenario...

Yeah, I guess this is the key. But it would be interesting to see an analysis of the interplay between the various supply ratings:
--Force Supply
--Formation Supply
--Unit Supply
--Supply Source Value
--Supply Radius

By increasing my Supply Source values from 50 to 100, and Supply Radius from the default (4) to 20, I've increased supply values by anywhere from 6x to 10x...have to see how that works.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 1:23:27 PM   
Zovs


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Pop First off many (and I mean all of the scenarios I have converted, around 40 so far) of the old scenarios do not set any of the supply points to any value. And only a small amount of the new ones set the values. This tell me not a lot of designs use the new supply rules (as well as the AD and MRPB). I have been updating all of these and testing out how things play out and feel. Steve makes a good point, and you have to adjust for the scenarios being depicted.

My goal is to release my tweaks by Christmas, I also have 125 entries in my one database that I have mentioned elsewhere. I won’t add supply points to it because it subjective.

Oh, the supply points value that is set is just another variable in the whole scenario and it works and adjusts with other environments settings. And to add more complexity to this is the the supply range, movement bias and other variables change it. So you can’t alway set a supply point to 75 or 125 and expect the same supply radius to be set. I have one France 44 scenario where when I set the Allies supply points to 100 they were getting 65-85% so I upped it or decreased it to get the right feel. In one of my North African conversions I have the Axis getting 5-25% and the allies getting 55-99% and it’s playing out quite nicely.

Like I said I have quite a few conversions/upgrades coming out by hopefully Christmas. I have been working on these for the last 3-6 months.

< Message edited by Zovs -- 12/13/2020 1:30:05 PM >


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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 3:02:04 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

analysis of the interplay between the various supply ratings:
--Force Supply
--Formation Supply
--Unit Supply
--Supply Source Value
--Supply Radius

If a scenario tinkers with all of them you get a mess, in my opinion. Set your Supply Level and Radius as the main interest. If you have Units or Formations that differ then set those. For example, in Afrika, set the German Formation Supply to 100% and the Italian Formation Supply to 50%, or whatever you feel is appropriate to reflect the less efficient Italian Supply Chain.

Otherwise, I never see a reason to set the Formation Supply to anything other than 100. Why set Overall Supply to say 50, then lower it to say 40 by setting the Formation Supply Level to 80%. Makes no sense to me, maybe someone can explain it

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 12/14/2020 10:58:55 PM >

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 3:13:56 PM   
Zovs


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I disagree Steve, Force Supply should never be set to 100%.

See Norms original documentation, FS is never set to 100%, the US is one of the highest at 30%.

I am talking about Force Supply Stockpile

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 3:23:44 PM   
Zovs


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Also for Formation Supply Efficiency only the US in 1946 is set to 100%

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 3:58:26 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
Why set Overall Supply to say 50, then lower it to say 40 by setting the Force Supply Level to 80%.

Now I'm getting a bit confused by the terminology...you set the "Force Supply Stockpile Level" in the Force Editor. Based on documentation from prior versions of TOAW, for the Germans I've set that at 25%. Then what is "Overall Supply"?

I'm still rather mystified by the relationship/interaction between this Force Supply Stockpile Level and the Supply Source values. If you have Supply Sources, why do you even need a Force Supply Stockpile?

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 4:15:32 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

...the Supply Level should be set to what works best for a scenario...

Yeah, I guess this is the key. But it would be interesting to see an analysis of the interplay between the various supply ratings:
--Force Supply
--Formation Supply
--Unit Supply
--Supply Source Value
--Supply Radius

By increasing my Supply Source values from 50 to 100, and Supply Radius from the default (4) to 20, I've increased supply values by anywhere from 6x to 10x...have to see how that works.

Force Supply Stockpile and Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency:

Use Norm's recommendations.

Supply Point Value:
You can imagine having several Supply Points on the map around the map edges. Assuming all connect back to a common supply source that is off the map (for example, the Normandy Beaches), the ones that are closest to that source (in MPs) should have higher values than the ones that are further away.

Similarly, you can imagine major ports having a much higher supply value than minor ports, etc.

Supply Radius:

If the supply lines were, historically, motorized (WWII and beyond), I set this value to 125-150km. If they were not motorized (pre-WWI), I set them to 12-15km. WWI falls somewhere in-between.

You left off Force Overextended Supply Threshold: I set this to from 3 to 5.

Edit: There are also Readiness/Supply Cost of Movement Rates, but that has to do with expenditure not replenishment.

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 12/13/2020 4:22:53 PM >


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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 4:30:42 PM   
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Yeah, I am not ready to even deal with the Overextended supply threshhold yet so did not bring it up... Same with the Readiness/Supply Cost of Movement Rates.

I'm interested in the Russian front, where AFAIK in 1941 both sides used mostly horse-drawn supply...I initially set the supply radius to 10 km, but found it far too short, so now am trying 50 km. Realistically I can't see horse-drawn supply being effective for more than 25 km, but the main thing is to get the effects more or less right...

But I still don't really understand the relationship between Force Supply Stockpile values and Supply Source values. Let's say that the Force Supply Stockpile value (as per Norm's recommendation) is 25. If the Supply Source is 100, does it simply pass through that 25, or is there some other effect (ie, does it increase it somehow)? Similarly, if the Supply Source value is reduced to 50, would the effective Force Supply Stockpile value fall to 12?

TOAW clearly has a pretty rich set of tools for dealing with supply issues, but it is difficult to use them without better documentation about them.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 5:08:42 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

If the Supply Source is 100, does it simply pass through that 25, or is there some other effect (ie, does it increase it somehow)? Similarly, if the Supply Source value is reduced to 50, would the effective Force Supply Stockpile value fall to 12?

Correct. See 9.1.7.4

< Message edited by Curtis Lemay -- 12/13/2020 5:18:53 PM >


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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 6:37:46 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay
Correct. See 9.1.7.4

Yes, I'd read that section but frankly it is not very clear. It says:

9.1.7.4. Variable Supply Points. Under these New Supply Rules, designers can also set supply levels for supply points (either initially or through events) to values between 1-250%-of-full. Default is 100%, of course. This is somewhat similar to the previous “kluge” of putting a supply point in a distance hex – but without the impact to ranges of the distance hex. When there are multiple points of different values, locations trace back to the point that will give each location the best supply value – even if further away.

Instead of saying "x% of full," I'd suggest something like "x% of the Force Supply Stockpile value..."

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 8:27:25 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

I'm interested in the Russian front, where AFAIK in 1941 both sides used mostly horse-drawn supply...


53% of a 1941 German infantry division's lift capacity was motorized.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/13/2020 10:31:55 PM   
Zovs


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I still say if you follow the guidelines from Norm you’ll not go wrong. There are two versions one that came with TOAW I and ACOW. I have copies of both and they still hold true today, the new IV tools just let you enhance it even further.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/14/2020 10:58:16 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs
I disagree Steve, Force Supply should never be set to 100%.
See Norms original documentation, FS is never set to 100%, the US is one of the highest at 30%.
I am talking about Force Supply Stockpile

I guess it wasn't clear what I said, so I changed it a little, thanks!

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/15/2020 12:33:14 AM   
Zovs


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I still think that Force Supply Stockpile should never be set to 100%. It refers to the stockpiles of supplies at the beginning of a scenario. Formation Supply Efficiency is how efficient a formation is at supply redistribution and lastly unit supply is how much a unit has or can manage effectively itself. All three combined results in variations of supply point calculations and can then be further modified by supply range, supply points and the environment and the calendar. It all good and it’s all complex. Norm made it so and we must abide 😊

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/15/2020 5:58:11 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653



Otherwise, I never see a reason to set the Formation Supply to anything other than 100. Why set Overall Supply to say 50, then lower it to say 40 by setting the Formation Supply Level to 80%. Makes no sense to me, maybe someone can explain it


Agree. This just serves to make things more difficult for the player. You should have your best-supplied formation at 100% and then scale everything to that.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/15/2020 6:00:29 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


Force Supply Stockpile and Formation Supply Distribution Efficiency:

Use Norm's recommendations.



... with a pinch of salt, and vary them depending on the needs of your specific scenario.

quote:

Supply Point Value:
You can imagine having several Supply Points on the map around the map edges. Assuming all connect back to a common supply source that is off the map (for example, the Normandy Beaches), the ones that are closest to that source (in MPs) should have higher values than the ones that are further away.

Similarly, you can imagine major ports having a much higher supply value than minor ports, etc.


It's worth noting that you'll get whatever supply level is coming over the rail net. It doesn't matter if you're next to a 50% supply point if there's a 100% supply point the other side of the map which is connected up to you by rail.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/15/2020 6:10:56 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


53% of a 1941 German infantry division's lift capacity was motorized.


One has to wonder about that. I understand the Germans picked up a lot of trucks off the French army which got used in Russia. However once that infantry division had advanced 1,000km, how many of the trucks were still running?

Anyway, a lot of that motor transport is actually for moving AT guns, bridging and other odd bits of heavy equipment and may not have been so suited to hauling supplies even when the heavy stuff is staying in one place. Of the actual transport columns, 6 out of 10 were horse-drawn, 3 were motorised, and the tenth was fuel transport (so presumably tankers which again can't really carry boxes of ammo instead)

http://niehorster.org/011_germany/41_organ_army/41_id_01-welle.html

...and that's only for the best, pre-war regular divisions. As you go down the OOB things get progressively worse. 14. Welle had six transport columns of which only one was motorised, plus there are no trucks for the butcher, baker or candlestick maker.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/15/2020 6:13:01 PM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

candlestick maker.


Still looking for the full TO&E for 107. SchwereCandelstikMaker Abteilung (mot.)

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/15/2020 6:25:56 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

It's worth noting that you'll get whatever supply level is coming over the rail net. It doesn't matter if you're next to a 50% supply point if there's a 100% supply point the other side of the map which is connected up to you by rail.


But if there is no repaired rail net?

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/15/2020 6:27:52 PM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Of the actual transport columns, 6 out of 10 were horse-drawn, 3 were motorised, and the tenth was fuel transport (so presumably tankers which again can't really carry boxes of ammo instead)


The 3 motorized were probably carrying 10x the supply volume of the 6 horse drawn, though. And fuel is part of the supply equation, so, having it motorized...

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/16/2020 1:00:15 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

14. Welle had six transport columns of which only one was motorised, plus there are no trucks for the butcher, baker or candlestick maker.


14 made up part of Army Group D all of which were in France after being assigned and didn't need anything but horses.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/16/2020 1:00:36 AM   
Lobster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Of the actual transport columns, 6 out of 10 were horse-drawn, 3 were motorised, and the tenth was fuel transport (so presumably tankers which again can't really carry boxes of ammo instead)


The 3 motorized were probably carrying 10x the supply volume of the 6 horse drawn, though. And fuel is part of the supply equation, so, having it motorized...


1189 horse teams about 1.25 metric tons lift each. 84 used for artillery limber (6 to 8 horse teams). 516 trucks averaging 2.5 metric tons lift capacity. 237 light vehicles averaging 0.6 metric tons lift each. 14 half tracked prime movers. 490 heavy motorcycles the vast majority heavy 750cc machines. 190 with side cars. The motorized portion had a lift capacity that equaled 53% of the total lift capacity of the division. The horse drawn portion made up the rest. And as Bob said, the horse teams had much less lift capacity (about 1.25 metric ton per team). The higher the wave number the less motorization and the higher the dependence on war loot. But still, it would be more fitting to call German infantry divisions partially motorized instead of horse drawn. And as the campaign progressed some of the lost motorization was made up by using captured Soviet equipment. 4800 trucks and about 1400 other vehicles. Everyone seems to forget about that last point.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/16/2020 2:57:22 AM   
Curtis Lemay


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

Of the actual transport columns, 6 out of 10 were horse-drawn, 3 were motorised, and the tenth was fuel transport (so presumably tankers which again can't really carry boxes of ammo instead)


The 3 motorized were probably carrying 10x the supply volume of the 6 horse drawn, though. And fuel is part of the supply equation, so, having it motorized...


1189 horse teams about 1.25 metric tons lift each. 84 used for artillery limber (6 to 8 horse teams). 516 trucks averaging 2.5 metric tons lift capacity. 237 light vehicles averaging 0.6 metric tons lift each. 14 half tracked prime movers. 490 heavy motorcycles the vast majority heavy 750cc machines. 190 with side cars. The motorized portion had a lift capacity that equaled 53% of the total lift capacity of the division. The horse drawn portion made up the rest. And as Bob said, the horse teams had much less lift capacity (about 1.25 metric ton per team). The higher the wave number the less motorization and the higher the dependence on war loot. But still, it would be more fitting to call German infantry divisions partially motorized instead of horse drawn. And as the campaign progressed some of the lost motorization was made up by using captured Soviet equipment. 4800 trucks and about 1400 other vehicles. Everyone seems to forget about that last point.

Furthermore, beyond what they could just physically lift, the trucks were much faster and could run 24/7. What they could deliver in a given time interval far exceeded the horse teams.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/16/2020 5:23:19 AM   
cathar1244

 

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quote:

It's worth noting that you'll get whatever supply level is coming over the rail net. It doesn't matter if you're next to a 50% supply point if there's a 100% supply point the other side of the map which is connected up to you by rail.


This.

Take France 1944 as a situation. 21st AG is well supplied in September while 12th AG is not.

It is well and fine to have "non repaired rail net" in the situation, but the scenario needs to crank down on automatic rail repair or availability of rail repair units. Sure, that can be done, but the 'fixes' get increasingly strained and gamey.

Trying to recall, but I think in 1946 and perhaps 1947, there were only TWO functional permanent rail bridges across the Rhine. It took that long to restore infrastructure over major streams. TOAW allows us to rather handily repair rail bridges, but if that was made difficult or impossible, the game's supply representation wouldn't allow for things like trucks offloading cargo from one rail line, crossing on a tactical bridge, and re-loading the cargo on a rail line on the far side of a river.

What would be very useful would be to be able to change a FORMATION's supply setting with an event. This would reflect shifting command priorities for who gets how much supply.

Cheers

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/16/2020 11:02:03 AM   
Lobster


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The German army had a handful of schwere Schiffsbrucke, literally 'heavy ship bridge', that could be put up in a week. These were railroad pontoon bridges. Not sure if the Western Allies had any but railroad pontoon bridges had been used in the U.S. for a century before WW2. But yeah, it's too easy to fix railroad bridges. Most every major actor in WW2 had heavy pontoon bridges that could be assembled in a day and were far more than tactical.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 12/16/2020 11:06:08 AM >


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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/16/2020 11:22:37 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Curtis Lemay

The 3 motorized were probably carrying 10x the supply volume of the 6 horse drawn, though.


Do you know that? Or are you guessing?

If I was a bureaucrat in the German army I would make sure that a "transport column" was interchangeable, i.e. a horse drawn column would be able to haul the same volume of supplies as a truck column. If that means the truck column has a fraction of the personnel then that's not a problem: what matters is that a commander can say "I have ten transport columns" and have a pretty good idea of what he can do with them without having to break out his slide rule.

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RE: Supply Point Confusion - 12/16/2020 11:23:50 AM   
golden delicious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster


quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

14. Welle had six transport columns of which only one was motorised, plus there are no trucks for the butcher, baker or candlestick maker.


14 made up part of Army Group D all of which were in France after being assigned and didn't need anything but horses.


You do have to be difficult don't you?

Would you like me to pick one of the other Welles and demonstrate that they, too, had less motor transport than 1. Welle?

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