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Yet another logistics tutorial (questions welcome!) - 12/7/2020 10:42:34 PM   
DTurtle

 

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This is one of the harder things to understand about Shadow Empire. I'm trying to keep this somewhat simple, but I am open to adding/improving on it. So ask away, and I'll try to update this post.

I am aware that I wrote stuff on the screen shots and am repeating some of it in the text. I first created this in order to post the picture on Discord, but then decided others might also find this useful.


How to check overall logistics
In order to look at logistics, use these buttons on the right side of the screen:


"Initial Pts" are what points you started this turn with. They are produced by truck stations and train stations. Truck points move along roads. Rail points move along rails. They use up AP for each hex moved. Once they reach a certain distance the points will decrease and disappear. We'll be ignoring that for now.


Press "T" and double click on a hex to set traffic signs. You want to block everything except pull points to all assets that are on a dead end road. That way only the needed points go there and none are wasted. You can also use signs to direct the points on junctions. We will ignore that for now.


"Used Pts" shows what points were used during the beginning of the turn for moving resources and supplies. This is affected by strategic movement of units, so check this before doing any strategic movement.


Looking at the SHQ shows you what the points were used for. You CAN change the maximum allowed for each type. You probably shouldn't. Not fulfilling all requested items is usually caused by lacking the resources requested. Missing replacements are usually caused by militia. If you consistently use more than the max allowed, you should probably upgrade your production of logistical points (aka upgrade truck/train stations)


"Current Pts" show what points are available right now for strategic movement. Using them for strat move lessens these points.


"Bottlenecks" shows you the "Current Pts" as a percentage of "Initial Pts". Use this to quickly see if there are any problems. This is affected by strategic movement, so check it before doing that. Black lines mean all available points were used. You should probably do something about that. The most dangerous black lines originate from your SHQ. Then you should probably (definitely) upgrade the truck/rail stations there.


"Preview Pts" shows you what the "Initial Pts" will be next turn. This can be affected by evil enemies cutting off roads, but otherwise will be accurate. It should immediately reflect the changes done by changing traffic signs. If you build new roads (or demolish old ones), switch to "Current Pts" and then back to "Preview Pts" to update the values. Use this (along with traffic signs) to direct the points where needed. No amount of redirection and control can alleviate the problem of missing overall logistics.


Looking at supplying units
Ok, how do we look if units can be supplied? It is VERY EASY!
First, always have "Show Op.Log" active. If you can't see the map layers, then you are looking at "Preview Pts" and have to switch to "Current Pts" to set it:

Second, with the overlay just go and look at the colors:

Various terrain costs varying amounts of AP to move supplies across. We don't have to remember the exact costs, because the overlay shows it to us. The overlay will not reflect overburdening of supply lines. So if you need 1000 logistical points of supplies, and 5 are available, the overlay will still be green. The overlay will update when building new roads or changing supply flow through usage of traffic signs, but only when you move units in such a way that they add a previously not controlled hex to your control. So first build the road, change traffic signs, then move a unit a single hex into enemy/neutral territory.

Green and yellow areas are fine for heavy fighting. Blueish might see you get in trouble with heavy fighting, but is mostly fine. Red is at the limits. Fighting will see you run out of supplies. Fuel using units will start getting stuck. However, the units will still get 100% of the food required - the penalty does not apply to that.
No color means those units will not receive any supplies - including food. This is bad but not immediately deadly (if they aren't fighting). Units generally try to keep one additional turn of food in their stockpile.

SHQ Logistics in more detail
This will start to become more complicated. I'll try and break it down. It'll still be complicated.

But the simple version is this:
Surplus resources flow from all zones to the SHQ and then the NEXT TURN they can flow from the SHQ to all zones and units.
What this means is that the stockpile in the SHQ at the end of last turn is what can be sent to and used by zones and units next turn. If you use all your fuel and metal and industrial points in your SHQ stockpile (by building lots of super cool tanks and walkers and missiles and planes), then your units will not receive any fuel and your zones will not be able to build anything next turn (unless they are self-sufficient).

So, lets look at the situation here:

If you know what you are looking at, you can immediately see that I seem to be a having a bit of trouble with my logistics and resources. You can probably even tell what my problems are. So, what are we looking at here?

Well, what happens at the beginning of each turn is the following in this order (THIS ORDER IS IMPORTANT!).

1) All zones check what they need in order to fill all production and building orders. They take as much as possible from their stockpile.
2) If the zone is missing something, it requests those resources from the SHQ.
3) The SHQ tries to fulfill all orders from its stockpile and sends them to the zones. Nothing is produced yet. This is limited by the stockpile of the SHQ, the logistical points available on the roads/rails, and the max logistical points allowed for each "phase".
4) All units request supplies from the SHQ. The SHQ attempts to fulfill those requests from its stockpile and sends as much as possible to the units. This is again limited by stockpile, available points and max usage allowed.
5) The zones use their stockpile and all resources received from the SHQ to produce/build as much as possible. All production is added to the stockpile of each individual zone.
6) The zones look at how many resources it required this turn/will require next turn. If it has more than needed every zone tries to send the surplus resources from its stockpile to the SHQ. This is again limited by stockpile, available points and max usage allowed.
7) Units ask for reinforcements from the SHQ. The SHQ tries to send as many as possible to the units. This is again limited by stockpile, available points and max usage allowed.
8) If there are left over logistical points, zones can now send resources to the SHQ, even beyond the max logistical points allowed.
9) If there are still left over logistical points, the SHQ can send additional supplies to units, even beyond the max logistical points allowed. This can NOT use resources just received this turn from zones.
10) If there are still left over logistical points, the SHQ can send additional resources to zones, even beyond the max logistical points allowed. This again can NOT use resources just received from zones this turn.

Very simple, right?

So lets go through this again:
SHQ -> Zone
This is almost always constrained by the stockpile in the SHQ being too low in order to fulfill all requests.

939 items out of 2318 requested were sent. They used 124 of 2558 truck/rail points allowed for this.

So lets walk through this and where to check this stuff:

Clicking on a zone and then the Items tab shows us (through the yellow highlighting) that the zone was missing some items (and manpower) in order to fulfill all production requirements. It requested additional resources, but only got sent a bit. A little bit of math tells us that the zone stockpile was 655-534-10+889 = 1000 metal last turn.
Well, how come the SHQ sent so little?

Our stockpile at the beginning of this turn looks great, why didn't the zones get anything?! Well, unfortunately I recruited an armored brigade last turn and had almost no metal left at the end of the turn! So only 106 were available to be sent to all zones! Only what is left at the end of the turn can be sent to zones! Where did they go?
We can check this screen here (I never used it before writing this guide, but now use it relatively often):


SHQ->Units
This is constrained by the stockpile in the SHQ being too low (after supplying zones!), units being outside of the optimal logistical range, or no logistical points being available.

So lets look at the supplies sent to units:

Again less was sent to units than requested. In this case: the SHQ stockpile was too low.
Note again, that the stockpile at the end of LAST TURN is what counts!

You can check this for all units on this VERY HELPFUL SCREEN:

This tells me just how deep in the hole I am with regards to fuel (or energy, or food, or ammo!) needs for units in total across my entire empire! This can, for example, help me decide how much more fuel to buy.

Another reason for units not receiving all supplies: A unit was outside the green supply area.

Note that this unit is almost at peak AP despite being in the red zone! Red supply zone can be FINE. Especially because they are still guaranteed to get 100% of the food needed - the penalty is only applied to all other stuff.

Zone -> SHQ
This is almost always constrained by there not being enough logistical points available on roads and stuff. Note that this comes BEFORE sending reinforcements to units! You will notice that this very often ignores the supposed limit. Also, if you ever run short of logistical points to send stuff to the SHQ, then the zones will build up their own stockpiles and continuously send as much as possible to the SHQ until that stockpile is gone! This can take a while! This is the only time I even THINK about touching the SHQ LP usage limits.

The WHAT?

The SHQ logistics limitations/LP Usage limits. I mentioned them before. They set the theoretical max LP usage for each type of LP usage.

So, the hex the SHQ was sitting in had 6396 initial logistical points.
Then we look here:

And we see that the SHQ can use 40% of that (2558) for SHQ->Zone, 40% (2559, yes the number is different) for SHQ->Unit, 20% for Zone -> SHQ and 20% for Replacements. Yes that adds up to 120%. What this means is that THEORETICALLY, if every previous step uses all allowed, units can not receive reinforcements. This situation ALMOST never happens. But it CAN happen. Then it MIGHT make sense to adjust those percentages for a turn or two. But you can EASILY destroy your entire economy by setting bad values here!

Finally, replacements
If there are logistical points left over, then units can use these to receive replacements. You will almost always be sending less replacements than requested, because militia units ask for replacements that you can't build but only hope to receive. As with the others, under Stats -> Logistical Statistics you can look at all units and what replacements they requested, received or returned.

Finally, finally if there are still logistical points left over, then the order is reversed and LP can be used beyond the LP usage limits set above. Since reinforcements RARELY use up all the remaining LP points, and Zone-> SHQ comes next after that, you will notice that very, very, very often Zone -> SHQ will be higher than the limit. Like in my screenshots.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 12/31/2020 5:53:17 PM >
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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/8/2020 2:04:21 AM   
mroyer

 

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Thanks DTurtle - can never have too many view points on how this stuff fits together!
-Mark R.

Edit:

quote:

"Used Pts" shows what points were used during the beginning of the turn for moving resources and supplies. This is unaffected by strategic movement of units.


DTurtle, I not clear what is meant by this. I've tried to verify but I see used points drop after strat movement. (I'm on the latest beta, v1.06.08)

The top row of pics is before the 10th brigade moves by strategic movement.
The bottom row is after. The 10th has a total logistics weight of 90.



< Message edited by mroyer -- 12/8/2020 11:58:35 AM >

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/8/2020 11:57:09 AM   
mroyer

 

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And I have another question about traffic signs that I've never been able to figure out on my own.
But it'll have to wait until I have time to get a couple screenies.

Thanks again DTurtle.
-Mark R.

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/8/2020 3:27:36 PM   
DTurtle

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer

DTurtle, I not clear what is meant by this. I've tried to verify but I see used points drop after strat movement. (I'm on the latest beta, v1.06.08)

This was indeed wrong in my post. I've corrected it. Used points, current points and bottleneck are all affected by strategic movement.

Looking forward to the question on traffic signs.

Also added a small section on looking at supplying your units.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 12/8/2020 5:24:54 PM >

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/8/2020 8:05:35 PM   
DTurtle

 

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Added a smallish section about looking at how LP are used by the SHQ, zones and units, where to check that stuff, and how it works.

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/9/2020 3:12:12 AM   
mroyer

 

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quote:

Looking forward to the question on traffic signs.


This is a straight forward question: what the heck is going on?

The following image shows combined rail/road logistic points of 343 being transferred to the southern hex in preview. Then, in the traffic signs dialog, I block all logistics traffic southward. After putting up the block, there are 344!?! points being transferred south. I expected 0 logistics in the southern hex.

And, as an added confusion-kicker, the pull-points in the central hex increase.
(There is no other activity between the images except to block traffic.)

Clearly, I'm completely misunderstanding what is going on.



-Mark R.



< Message edited by mroyer -- 12/9/2020 3:20:04 AM >

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/9/2020 2:03:34 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer

quote:

Looking forward to the question on traffic signs.


This is a straight forward question: what the heck is going on?

The following image shows combined rail/road logistic points of 343 being transferred to the southern hex in preview. Then, in the traffic signs dialog, I block all logistics traffic southward. After putting up the block, there are 344!?! points being transferred south. I expected 0 logistics in the southern hex.

And, as an added confusion-kicker, the pull-points in the central hex increase.
(There is no other activity between the images except to block traffic.)

Clearly, I'm completely misunderstanding what is going on.



-Mark R.



Wich other way is there for the Logistics to go? They made it to 109,9 from the north, nowhere to go but further south.

Stopping dead at this hex would not give you anything. They will not turn around and reinforce the incomming line or anything like that. The upkeep for rail assets is already paid. There are pull points up the line, wich brought 343 Tons of capacity on this line.
So the best they can do is go on.

< Message edited by zgrssd -- 12/9/2020 2:05:52 PM >

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/9/2020 4:21:53 PM   
Falke

 

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For completeness you should add that Food for units is still 100% even in the Red Zone. The gradual reduction only applies to non-food

Still a good guide though.

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/9/2020 7:26:01 PM   
DTurtle

 

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I wasn't exactly sure about that, but my own screenshot proves that that is the case - I added a note. Thanks for the tip!

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/9/2020 9:35:46 PM   
DTurtle

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mroyer

This is a straight forward question: what the heck is going on?

The following image shows combined rail/road logistic points of 343 being transferred to the southern hex in preview. Then, in the traffic signs dialog, I block all logistics traffic southward. After putting up the block, there are 344!?! points being transferred south. I expected 0 logistics in the southern hex.

And, as an added confusion-kicker, the pull-points in the central hex increase.
(There is no other activity between the images except to block traffic.)

Clearly, I'm completely misunderstanding what is going on.



-Mark R.



Oh sweet summer child, that is indeed a very simple question with a very simple answer:
The game is very intelligent and trying to get as much out of your logistics system, while trying to cope as much as possible with the weird **** you are telling it to do!

Lets look at a situation I constructed in order to show what is happening:

By switching to the "Preview Pts" view and selecting the truck station lvl 4, we get everything provided by that asset highlighted.
Our truck station produced 5320 truck points in the SHQ hex. I blocked everything except for pull points out of that hex. We will send 1000 points north and 2153 to the southwest. 2167 will do nothing but sit in the hex.
So, how did those numbers get created? The 1000 to the north are easy - I placed 1000 custom pull points there.
The 2153 to the southeast are also easy: 2000 from the custom pull points in the other city, 50 from the custom pull points on the dead end road to the south, and 103 (32 +5 +21 + 45) from the pull points from units. All other pull points we see there had NO EFFECT!
To understand that, work from the outside in towards the SHQ. The pull points per hex are the highest asset or custom pull points encountered so far and the sum of all unit pull points encountered so far. At junctions add the pull points per direction. If encountering a traffic sign blocking pull points, remove that percentage of pull points. Do this until you reach the SHQ.
So for us it looks something like this:

And that's how LP points are affected by pull points. Since normal assets do not consume LP, this is actually slightly inefficient. Until units require more than required by normal assets, their pull points should not be added to the total. If you really, really, really wanted to, you could maybe get a percent or two of additional usage out of your logistical system by suppressing some of the pull points generated by units.




Oh, none of that answered your questions? Well, this IS a tutorial thread, so expect me to take any and every opportunity for digressions!
Anyway, as I said before, the answers are easy:
quote:

After putting up the block, there are 344!?! points being transferred south. I expected 0 logistics in the southern hex.

Lets look at the right side of the traffic sign details from the rest of my post (see it wasn't wasted!). Please ignore that the numbers don't quite add up to the screenshots before, I had to recreate the situation and got slightly different numbers):

There are truck points coming to the hex in order to fulfill the pull points requirement. If they have no other path to take, they will ignore the traffic sign and continue on instead of disappearing into the nether. However, this only works when there is ONE road continuing on that is blocked off. If there are TWO roads, the system is confused and will destroy all precious logistical points.


quote:

And, as an added confusion-kicker, the pull-points in the central hex increase.


Those pull points came from units. Units are (somewhat) smart. If you tell them they can't get supply from a hex, they will demand those supplies from further up the line.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 12/31/2020 5:55:44 PM >

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/10/2020 3:17:25 AM   
mroyer

 

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Well, gee whiz...

While I knew it was a non-sense example for academic purposes, I just assumed my subordinates would diligently follow orders no matter how absurd. I never dreamed they would ignore the stupid ones to do the sensible - that can be quite dangerous in certain regime

That has screwed up my understanding of traffic signs for 6 months now - thanks for clearing it up!!
-Mark R.


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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/11/2020 3:02:39 PM   
DTurtle

 

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As a side note, if you block everything going everywhere, but there are TWO (or more) roads they could take, then they will take neither.

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/29/2020 4:34:42 PM   
DTurtle

 

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So, you have some logistical network going out from your SHQ and it is going through some cities. You want to be relatively careful when those cities have their own logistical assets (which they should!). After all, when the points from a truck station meet another truck station those points are refocused - resetting all their AP but also losing at least 25% of their points. The same goes for rail stations.

The last thing you want to do is this:

(Adjusted a bit from a real case).
So we have four Rail Stations 1 (each providing 2000 rail points) and two Rail Stations 2 (each providing 4000 rail points). That is a total of 16000 rail points.

However when we add together the three legs going out from this system we only have 2906 + 459 + 7502 points: a total of 10806 points leaving this network to the other outlying zones! We already lost more than five thousand points through refocusing!
In fact we can look at the individual stations and see that the rail station in the center (sitting on the SHQ) lost almost all rail points:

Only 693 of the original 4000 points made it out!

So what do we do instead?
Well, the obvious solution would be to simply have a level 3 or 4 station in the SHQ and not have built all those level 1 stations at all.

But, how about this:

I think that the basic idea is clear: Have a main route (that runs through the SHQ), with all other stations sitting one hex off of that route, adding their rail points to the main route. A traffic sign stops the points from diverting off the route to those stations. I also added some traffic signs on the direction away from the SHQ so that more points go towards the SHQ (after all, that is where we need the most points).

So what does this result in?
4698 + 2775 + 6670 = 14143 rail points leaving this part of the network. We only lost 1857 points - because we are rerouting some stuff from the outside towards the SHQ, which refocuses them. We can adjust how many points we want to have in the SHQ - the higher the proportion, the higher the lost rail points.

There is one slight disadvantage when you use this approach of having the logistical asset sitting beside the main route: Usually you build that asset in a city. And as you can see in the screenshot above, the amount of points available where that asset is sitting are only those produced in the asset. However, we can address this:

This way, the city gets the full number of points available on the main route! You don't even have to have the rail station right next to the city, but anywhere along the route where needed (though having it right next to the city will have it have the maximum amount of rail points available).
As I noted on the picture, you can also do this with truck stations. However, you will need to have a lvl 1 truck station mothballed in order to stop the civilians from building a new one. Also, usually trucks are a lot more AP constrained so you need to refocus a lot more anyway. So it might only be useful in certain use cases.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 12/29/2020 4:35:37 PM >

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 12/31/2020 5:30:02 PM   
DTurtle

 

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One question that comes up quite often is:how do you ensure that your units always have the newest model, without losing all their experience?
Well, for infantry it is easy: you select the unit, click on it, and mass upgrade all units in the same SHQ to the newer model.


The cost is the max cost. It can be less if some units can't be upgraded, because they are out of range of logistics.


However, how can you manage this for an entire empire and especially for all those tanks, buggies, etc?

This simple 6 step program will do that for you:
1. Set the old model quality to "low".
2. Set the new model quality to "regular".
3. Set low quality models for the formation to "tolerated".
4. Set normal quality models for the formation to "allowed".
5. Recruit replacements of the new model in the SHQ.
6. Press next turn

You can do all of this on the MNG->Models screen:

During the logistics phase of a new turn the SHQ will (providing enough logistics capability is available) switch out "tolerated" models for "allowed" models.
One advantage of doing it this way: If you upgrade a unit during the turn, it will lose all AP! If you upgrade it between turns, it will have all AP available as normal.

One last note: Models set to obsolete (or to disallowed for the formation) will be sent back to the SHQ even if no replacements are available. This can result in formations being emptied and disbanded.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 12/31/2020 5:34:07 PM >

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/2/2021 12:59:13 AM   
newageofpower


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Regarding Truckstops sitting off the main route and refocusing:

Couldn't you build a supply base on the City's hex before you colonize the city? Wouldn't that allow for refocusing truck AP without LIS losses?

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/2/2021 4:36:06 PM   
DTurtle

 

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A supply base after a single hex does not contribute much. A supply base does not refocus truck AP. All it does is add some AP that can be used once along each route. In addition (this was added in a patch some time ago), it can only add as much AP as was used along that route so far. Refocusing (by truck or rail stations) resets the used AP so far to zero.
Here we have a level one supply base two hexes after the truck station on a dirt road:

Note that it only added 20 AP (the "ext 10/20") of the theoretical 50 AP it produces, because the route had only used 20 AP so far.

Here is a level one supply base three hexes after the truck station:

Now it adds 30 AP, because the route had used 30 AP so far.

If you have multiple supply bases along a route, the highest additional AP possible will be used:

The first supply base had added 20 AP. This one now increases the extension AP to 30, because 30 AP had been used. As a minor note: This supply base is three hexes down from the first supply base. That is because the first two hexes use the "ext" AP and the route still only has used 20 AP. A supply base placed only two hexes away from the first supply base didn't add any "ext" AP, because at that point STILL only 20 AP had been used.

Now, just to make even clearer why multiple truck/rail stations after one another are bad. This was done with easy logistics, so double AP (which is why there are more than 200 AP available). Also, I just noticed that I also had the enforcement profile. The enforcement profile does NOT ADD AP. It only add truck/rail points.

The first refocus - no matter how many AP used so far - destroys 25% of points. The second destroys 50%, the third 75%, the fourth ends the route.
In addition, a proportion of the points are destroyed according to the AP used. To be exact: percent of points destroyed = (AP used ) / (2*AP originally available)
These two percentage losses of points are multiplicatively applied to the original points.

To show this, I placed truck stations two hexes apart.

First refocus station:

I used 20 AP out of 204 AP: 20/(2*204) = 4.9% loss.
Also 1st refocus: 25% loss.
So total points sent on: 100*0.75*0.95 = 71.25 points.
Second:

I once again used 20 AP out of 204 AP: 20/(2*204) = 4.9% loss.
2nd refocus: 50% loss.
So total points sent on: 71*0.5*0.95 = 33.725 points.

Third:

I once again used 20 AP out of 204 AP: 20/(2*204) = 4.9% loss.
3rd refocus: 75% loss.
So total points sent on: 34*0.25*0.95 = 8.075 points.

Fourth:

4th refocus: Route ends.

So in summary: You really want to avoid having truck stations or rail stations too close together, unless you don't care about the loss of logistical points.

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/6/2021 9:11:12 PM   
redrum68

 

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Question: is there a way to actually limit zone > SHQ so that it doesn't use the remainder? An example is I want to have enough current logistics points to build units away from the SHQ and am fine with some assets getting stockpiled for later use in zones.

If not, how do you build units closer to the fronts when the SHQ is say 50 hexes from the front?

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/6/2021 10:52:36 PM   
DTurtle

 

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There is unfortunately no way to make the limit really be a limit.

However, what you can do is only have a certain capacity go to the city of the zone, and make the rest of the capacity bypass the city.

In that screenshot, only 4830 points go into the city, but 6920 points are coming along the rail and road from the south-east. There is simply no way for the city/zone to use up all logistics going that way. There will be at least 2000 points available for other stuff. This can be manipulated by using traffic signs to only let a certain percent of the logistics go into the city. In that screenshot, only rail points coming from the south-east go into the city. All truck points bypass it. All truck points generated in the city are also stopped by traffic signs from going back towards the SHQ to the south-east. Instead they can only go forward towards the front.

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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/6/2021 11:52:30 PM   
redrum68

 

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Creative solution. Thanks for the response.

(in reply to DTurtle)
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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/28/2021 2:39:10 AM   
yutowap33

 

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Supply bases, does it matter where we build them in the zone?

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 20
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/28/2021 3:47:11 AM   
newageofpower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: yutowap33

Supply bases, does it matter where we build them in the zone?

Depends on the logistical AP, AP erosion ratio (sometimes sealed roads are value), etc.

Rule of thumb: Truck IV (old zone) - 15 road - Supply Base II - 15 Road - Truck IV (New Zone)

< Message edited by newageofpower -- 1/28/2021 4:09:40 AM >

(in reply to yutowap33)
Post #: 21
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/28/2021 4:26:47 PM   
DTurtle

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: yutowap33

Supply bases, does it matter where we build them in the zone?

I addressed this in this post. Maybe I should add some nice pictures to make it more obvious.

Supply bases provide additional AP to a truck route. However (after we abused it a lot ), a supply base can only add as many AP to the route as regular AP have been used up at that point.

A level 1 supply base provides 50 AP. A dirt road uses 10 AP per hex, so placing a supply base closer than 5 hexes to the truck station is a waste. A sealed road uses 7 AP per hex, so placing a supply base closer than 7 hexes to the truck station is a waste.

A level 2 supply base provides 75 AP, and a level 3 supply base provides 100 AP. Adjust the building of the supply base as needed. Do remember that placing assets more than 6 hexes from a city increases admin strain.

Also, obviously, any truck points that have been lost due to going above the normal AP of a truck route are gone for good.

< Message edited by DTurtle -- 1/28/2021 4:27:34 PM >

(in reply to yutowap33)
Post #: 22
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/29/2021 1:35:07 PM   
yutowap33

 

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Thanks, I got confused by the zone logistic panel. It seemed to suggest ranges are cumulative.
So it seems that best practice is to place the supply depot at the end of the optimal range.

Btw the manual says the sealed roads use 10AP. Also in your post it says that we can use two supply depots, but the manual says that only one will count.

(in reply to DTurtle)
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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/29/2021 2:58:05 PM   
redrum68

 

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Actually the manual says sealed roads use 5 AP but that is incorrect and they use 7 AP.

For rule of thumb, you should generally place supply depots at the halfway point between 2 truck stations so they get as far from them as possible in both directions along that road to ensure as much AP has been used before it reaches them. And generally they are more useful the larger the distance between two truck stops is (or at least where ever you can ensure it hits the supply depot AP bonus before reaching it).

(in reply to yutowap33)
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RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/29/2021 3:05:27 PM   
DTurtle

 

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The costs mentioned in Section 5.11.2. about the AP costs were changed in a patch quite a while ago.
The manual says: dirt roads 10 AP, sealed roads 5 AP, railroads 2 AP. The cost on sealed roads was increased to 7 AP and on railroads to 5 AP.


This image clearly shows that the extended AP can be increased. The maximum extended AP never gets refocused/refreshed, but if the truck route goes through a supply depot that provides a higher maximum extended AP then those points are added. So you could start with a level 1 truck station, then a level 1 supply base 5 hexes down the line, refocus 10 hexes further from that with another level 1 truck station, and then have a lvl 3 supply base 5 hexes down the line from there and it will add yet another 5 hexes of range. I don't think that that has any real use, but it's what you could theoretically do.

(in reply to yutowap33)
Post #: 25
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/29/2021 6:13:40 PM   
yutowap33

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68
For rule of thumb, you should generally place supply depots at the halfway point between 2 truck stations so they get as far from them as possible in both directions along that road to ensure as much AP has been used before it reaches them. And generally they are more useful the larger the distance between two truck stops is (or at least where ever you can ensure it hits the supply depot AP bonus before reaching it).


I am not sure this is true, see p2 in the manual:
quote:


§ The Range Boost is not cumulative with multiple Supply Bases en
route (if you already have a Supply Base in place and at the end of the
line you are not receiving enough Logistical Points, you should build
another Truck Station somewhere in between).

§ If Trucks passing it by are already beyond optimum range, they will
not be restored to optimum range, but their range will be extended at
their current %.



1) In case of supply between two cities, using a slightly adjusted example from the manual. If you have 2 City with a Private Transport Hub and a 22 hex Dirt Road in between. Then:

If you put the supply depot on hex 5 in either direction you'd get 100% flow.
If you put the supply depot in the middle on hex 11, you'd get 40% flow bottle neck in the middle.

2) In case of supplying the front line (which is what I am planning todo) there is no second truck station, them it is certainly best to put the supply depot just at the optimal range.

* The only complication to this is if you are planning to upgrade your truck depot or road later on.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle
The manual says: dirt roads 10 AP, sealed roads 5 AP, railroads 2 AP. The cost on sealed roads was increased to 7 AP and on railroads to 5 AP.


Good to know both the numbers and where to check this.

< Message edited by yutowap33 -- 1/29/2021 6:16:18 PM >

(in reply to redrum68)
Post #: 26
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial - 1/29/2021 6:25:22 PM   
redrum68

 

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@yutowap33 - Well in the case you have 2 private transport hubs 22 hex apart, you really need to make them public. But yes if the distance between to truck stations is greater than 2x their range then you would need to consider 2 supply depots at optimal range on each side but I find that happens pretty rarely. And yes supplying to a "dead end" with no truck station on the other side means you just want to put the supply depot as close to the truck station where its going to get its max extension bonus.

< Message edited by redrum68 -- 1/29/2021 6:27:37 PM >

(in reply to yutowap33)
Post #: 27
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial (questions welcome!) - 5/15/2021 4:42:48 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle
Looking at the SHQ shows you what the points were used for. You CAN change the maximum allowed for each type. You probably shouldn't. Not fulfilling all requested items is usually caused by lacking the resources requested. Missing replacements are usually caused by militia. If you consistently use more than the max allowed, you should probably upgrade your production of logistical points (aka upgrade truck/train stations)


I had to spend some time figuring this out to get the logistics system to cooperate a while back, and the order indicated here isn't correct.

What the game actually does is it adds the unused portion of each category's maximum LP allocation to the maximum for subsequent categories. Making use of leftover LP from the previous categories is the only reason why usage sometimes exceed the set maximums. Unused LP that makes it to the end of REPLACEMENT does not get spent, it's saved for manual strategic movement and such.

(in reply to DTurtle)
Post #: 28
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial (questions welcome!) - 5/15/2021 5:06:51 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Soar_Slitherine


quote:

ORIGINAL: DTurtle
Looking at the SHQ shows you what the points were used for. You CAN change the maximum allowed for each type. You probably shouldn't. Not fulfilling all requested items is usually caused by lacking the resources requested. Missing replacements are usually caused by militia. If you consistently use more than the max allowed, you should probably upgrade your production of logistical points (aka upgrade truck/train stations)


I had to spend some time figuring this out to get the logistics system to cooperate a while back, and the order indicated here isn't correct.

What the game actually does is it adds the unused portion of each category's maximum LP allocation to the maximum for subsequent categories. Making use of leftover LP from the previous categories is the only reason why usage sometimes exceed the set maximums. Unused LP that makes it to the end of REPLACEMENT does not get spent, it's saved for manual strategic movement and such.

If that was the case, SHQ > Zone should never be able to exceed it's limit. After all, there is nothing to give it excess points above it.
But I am 90% sure I saw SHQ > Zone exceed the limits.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)
Post #: 29
RE: Yet another logistics tutorial (questions welcome!) - 5/15/2021 5:50:37 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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I am almost totally certain that when I was experimenting with this, LP left over after REPLACEMENT did not go back to into ZONE > SHQ, despite that category not having enough LP allocated to transfer all the resources. I am 100% certain about the general mechanic of unused LP max getting transferred into the next category - this is why REPLACEMENT never gets any LP on the default settings if there's a bottleneck at ZONE > SHQ (the max settings for ZONE > SHQ and the previous categories add up to 100%, so ZONE > SHQ is permitted to consume up to 100% of available LP).

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 30
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