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Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engineers

 
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Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engineers - 11/24/2020 5:20:44 PM   
porpoisehead


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Hi folks,

I recently found a unit moving towards its destination hex while in Rest/Training, and realized my noobish assumptions about Op Modes were very wrong.

The rogue unit has been ordered to stay put, and what I'm now wondering is, what are the effects of Op Modes on Engineers? Will they still build and repair in Rest/Training? In what mode are they most effective at building and repairing?

On a related note, are there specific details available on how the different engineer types interact with different orders or repair requirements? For example, can a JNAF company build fortifications? Can combat engineers repair an airfield? Can Shipping Engineers reduce enemy fortifications in a battle? Can a JNAF company expand an airfield, or do I need an AF Construction battalion for that? And so on and so forth...

Thanks all!
Post #: 1
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 5:23:44 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8530
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
Combat works best for building since engineers in the other modes don't build anything.

Someone put a guide together for the types of engineers and what they do, I don't know where it is.

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(in reply to porpoisehead)
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RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 6:02:53 PM   
GetAssista

 

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Joined: 9/19/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead
On a related note, are there specific details available on how the different engineer types interact with different orders or repair requirements? For example, can a JNAF company build fortifications? Can combat engineers repair an airfield? Can Shipping Engineers reduce enemy fortifications in a battle? Can a JNAF company expand an airfield, or do I need an AF Construction battalion for that? And so on and so forth...

It's not about units, it's about squads/devices. In stock engineers/eng. vehicles build stuff, nobody else does.

(in reply to porpoisehead)
Post #: 3
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 6:42:49 PM   
porpoisehead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista
It's not about units, it's about squads/devices. In stock engineers/eng. vehicles build stuff, nobody else does.


Ahh, that makes sense. And the "Support" squads support. Derp. I'm still wrapping my head around the TOE and device stuff. I'll have to look at the units more closely.

Do Engineers and Engineer Vehicles also do the anti-fort actions? Or is that another device/squad type?

(in reply to GetAssista)
Post #: 4
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 6:56:01 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead
Do Engineers and Engineer Vehicles also do the anti-fort actions? Or is that another device/squad type?

It's combat engineers that attack enemy forts. In stock it's a different squad (and sometimes device). Usually they are listed in the TOE right after infantry/MG squads while building engineers are near the bottom of the list

I always add "in stock" because some mods juggle around with all those functions

< Message edited by GetAssista -- 11/24/2020 9:22:56 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 7:33:37 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15697
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead
Do Engineers and Engineer Vehicles also do the anti-fort actions? Or is that another device/squad type?

It's combat engineers that attack enemy forts. In stock it's a different squad (and sometimes device) which does not build stuff. Usually they are listed in the TOE right after infantry/MG squads while building engineers are near the bottom of the list

I always add "in stock" because some mods juggle around with all those functions

I play stock and Combat Engineers do build stuff - not as efficiently as the non-combat engineers, but they do. I know this from having units which have only Combat Engineers at a base (and no other engineers) and have increased build on ports, airfields and forts. Of course they also deal with base damage. They also happen to be good at killing tanks - nothing like a satchel charge to spoil a tank's day!

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Post #: 6
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 9:19:26 PM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead
Do Engineers and Engineer Vehicles also do the anti-fort actions? Or is that another device/squad type?

It's combat engineers that attack enemy forts. In stock it's a different squad (and sometimes device) which does not build stuff. Usually they are listed in the TOE right after infantry/MG squads while building engineers are near the bottom of the list

I always add "in stock" because some mods juggle around with all those functions

I play stock and Combat Engineers do build stuff - not as efficiently as the non-combat engineers, but they do. I know this from having units which have only Combat Engineers at a base (and no other engineers) and have increased build on ports, airfields and forts. Of course they also deal with base damage. They also happen to be good at killing tanks - nothing like a satchel charge to spoil a tank's day!

I stand corrected, indeed them combat engineers do build stuff, thank you. And at a productivity exactly equal to standard engineers per 1 squad. I had that misconception for quite a long time =)
Also, turns out Japanese engineers are about 15% less effective at building stuff compared to US ones per 1 squad (did not test other nations)

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 7
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 9:36:23 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8530
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead
Do Engineers and Engineer Vehicles also do the anti-fort actions? Or is that another device/squad type?

It's combat engineers that attack enemy forts. In stock it's a different squad (and sometimes device) which does not build stuff. Usually they are listed in the TOE right after infantry/MG squads while building engineers are near the bottom of the list

I always add "in stock" because some mods juggle around with all those functions

I play stock and Combat Engineers do build stuff - not as efficiently as the non-combat engineers, but they do. I know this from having units which have only Combat Engineers at a base (and no other engineers) and have increased build on ports, airfields and forts. Of course they also deal with base damage. They also happen to be good at killing tanks - nothing like a satchel charge to spoil a tank's day!


Don't forget the !

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 8
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/24/2020 10:05:41 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15697
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: GetAssista

quote:

ORIGINAL: porpoisehead
Do Engineers and Engineer Vehicles also do the anti-fort actions? Or is that another device/squad type?

It's combat engineers that attack enemy forts. In stock it's a different squad (and sometimes device) which does not build stuff. Usually they are listed in the TOE right after infantry/MG squads while building engineers are near the bottom of the list

I always add "in stock" because some mods juggle around with all those functions

I play stock and Combat Engineers do build stuff - not as efficiently as the non-combat engineers, but they do. I know this from having units which have only Combat Engineers at a base (and no other engineers) and have increased build on ports, airfields and forts. Of course they also deal with base damage. They also happen to be good at killing tanks - nothing like a satchel charge to spoil a tank's day!

I stand corrected, indeed them combat engineers do build stuff, thank you. And at a productivity exactly equal to standard engineers per 1 squad. I had that misconception for quite a long time =)
Also, turns out Japanese engineers are about 15% less effective at building stuff compared to US ones per 1 squad (did not test other nations)

I think some of the mods that split engineer types took away facilities construction from the Combat Engineers. That may be the reason you were under the wrong impression. Thanks for testing out the efficacy of Combat Engineers vs plain ol' engineers - I had the impression that they (CEs) were less efficient but didn't know how to set up tests for it, and was unwilling to experiment with my current game.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/29/2020 3:05:39 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 1751
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: The Land Downunder
Status: online
This was sent to me a few days ago:





Attachment (1)

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RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/29/2020 3:58:45 AM   
Nomad

 

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Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
Here is thread started by JWE about Engineers and such. It was to explain how DBB uses things, but this excerpt explains things. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2594995

quote:



Engineers:
The “name” of a device does not matter, only the device data matters. Any Eng unit can always build, but if it has Anti-Armor <1, it cannot reduce forts. If it has Anti-Soft <9, it cannot AV. If it is “named” Construction or Labor Eng, but is a Type = 23 (squad), it will not build. If it also has a-a <1, and a-s <9, it won’t do anything but eat (i.e., nothing but ‘bodies’). So there is a matrix of different Eng squads that represent a mix of abilities; build stuff, reduce forts, able to AV, some of the above, none of the above. DaBigBabes uses this matrix (according to our appreciation as to how it falls out) to help limit in-game tempo, by limiting in-game infrastructure.


I am using scenario 1 data.

Note, the name is just a string in the editor and has no meaning what so ever.

Note, if the device is a type = 24 (engineer) then it can build. There is no difference between a Combat Engineer and an Engineer when it comes to building. They are both type 24.

An Engineer, device #251 has an anti-armor of 1 and a anti-soft of 9, therefore it will reduce forts and attack in the fire phase.







< Message edited by Nomad -- 11/29/2020 3:17:32 PM >


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RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/29/2020 2:34:04 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15697
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Here is thread started by JWE about Engineers and such. It was to explain how DBB uses things, but this excerpt explains things. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2594995

quote:



Engineers:
The “name” of a device does not matter, only the device data matters. Any Eng unit can always build, but if it has Anti-Armor <1, it cannot reduce forts. If it has Anti-Soft <9, it cannot AV. If it is “named” Construction or Labor Eng, but is a Type = 23 (squad), it will not build. If it also has a-a <1, and a-s <9, it won’t do anything but eat (i.e., nothing but ‘bodies’). So there is a matrix of different Eng squads that represent a mix of abilities; build stuff, reduce forts, able to AV, some of the above, none of the above. DaBigBabes uses this matrix (according to our appreciation as to how it falls out) to help limit in-game tempo, by limiting in-game infrastructure.


I am using scenario 1 data.

Note, the name is just a string in the editor and has no meaning what so ever.

Note, if the device is a type = 24 (engineer) then it can build. There is no difference between a Combat Engineer and an Engineer when it comes to building. They are both type 24.

An Engineer, device #251 has an a-a of 1 and a a-s of 9, therefore it will reduce forts and attack in the fire phase.


Careful with uncommon abbreviations - I had to think quite a while before guessing that a-a means anti-armor and a-s means anti-soft. I could only do that because I have done some playing around in the Editor. For newbies and those that have not delved into the editor, the abbreviation will just raise a blank screen in their heads. Not fair to them.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 12
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/29/2020 10:41:05 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8530
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Here is thread started by JWE about Engineers and such. It was to explain how DBB uses things, but this excerpt explains things. https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2594995

quote:



Engineers:
The “name” of a device does not matter, only the device data matters. Any Eng unit can always build, but if it has Anti-Armor <1, it cannot reduce forts. If it has Anti-Soft <9, it cannot AV. If it is “named” Construction or Labor Eng, but is a Type = 23 (squad), it will not build. If it also has a-a <1, and a-s <9, it won’t do anything but eat (i.e., nothing but ‘bodies’). So there is a matrix of different Eng squads that represent a mix of abilities; build stuff, reduce forts, able to AV, some of the above, none of the above. DaBigBabes uses this matrix (according to our appreciation as to how it falls out) to help limit in-game tempo, by limiting in-game infrastructure.


I am using scenario 1 data.

Note, the name is just a string in the editor and has no meaning what so ever.

Note, if the device is a type = 24 (engineer) then it can build. There is no difference between a Combat Engineer and an Engineer when it comes to building. They are both type 24.

An Engineer, device #251 has an a-a of 1 and a a-s of 9, therefore it will reduce forts and attack in the fire phase.


Careful with uncommon abbreviations - I had to think quite a while before guessing that a-a means anti-armor and a-s means anti-soft. I could only do that because I have done some playing around in the Editor. For newbies and those that have not delved into the editor, the abbreviation will just raise a blank screen in their heads. Not fair to them.


Wrong. You are supposed to dazzle newbies with your brilliance and baffle them with your bull feces.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 13
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/30/2020 1:50:35 PM   
porpoisehead


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Joined: 10/16/2020
Status: offline
Thanks everyone, this has been super helpful!

Another engineer-related question came to mind today, as I've recently liberated Miri from the hands of the baleful, oil-guzzling, self-determination-flouting Western colonialists. Are engineers required to repair industries such as oil centres and refineries?

I see from the manual that "Engineers can be used to increase the size of airfields, ports, and fortifications at bases, and they can also be used to repair damage to airfields and ports;" and "Supply points are required to supply ground and air units and expand/repair factories." This makes it sound like I don't need engineers to repair industry... but I'd like to make sure. This is also very relevant to me as I need to go back and make sure my variously expanded aircraft factories are repairing, also...

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 14
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/30/2020 2:52:54 PM   
alimentary

 

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Joined: 3/22/2010
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Industry repair (shipyards, aircraft factories, resource centers, light industry, heavy industry, refineries, etc) is abstracted into supply consumption. No engineers required.

Facility repair (port facilities, air field, air base) and base fortifications require engineers.

Field fortifications (per-unit defenses for non-moving units outside of bases) build more rapidly with engineers. I've heard mixed reports about whether they build without engineers.

(in reply to porpoisehead)
Post #: 15
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/30/2020 3:00:13 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 8530
Joined: 11/16/2015
Status: online
Soldiers have what is called an entrenching tool, if necessary they will use whatever is handy to dig in.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to alimentary)
Post #: 16
RE: Op Modes and general scope of capabilities for Engi... - 11/30/2020 6:58:40 PM   
porpoisehead


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Joined: 10/16/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: alimentary

Industry repair (shipyards, aircraft factories, resource centers, light industry, heavy industry, refineries, etc) is abstracted into supply consumption. No engineers required.

Facility repair (port facilities, air field, air base) and base fortifications require engineers.

Field fortifications (per-unit defenses for non-moving units outside of bases) build more rapidly with engineers. I've heard mixed reports about whether they build without engineers.


Awesome, thanks alimentary!

(in reply to alimentary)
Post #: 17
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