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WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 12:00:37 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Beta 9U16
Removed CV group abiity to strike sub groups now they follow surface fleet rules
Added Sub Hunter CVs and patrol groups add bonus chances for escorts to hit subs
Change subs and raiders no longer need operation points to attack convoys at the end of a turn

NEW sub hunter game mechanic.

Sub Hunters – Naval fleets on a convoy hex icon will protect all friendly convoys within a 24 hex radius by adding a bonus to any escorts protecting a convoy attack in that area. Carrier battle groups add a 2% bonus to convoy escort damage chances vs subs. Patrol groups add a 1% bonus to convoy escort damage chances vs subs within their radius of protection.

To benefit from the sub hunter bonus a convoy route must also have escorts assigned to it. Destroyers were assigned as convoy escorts on occasion but they were not nearly as effective as destroyer escorts. They were specifically suited to hunting submarines. Destroyers defended combat fleets, destroyer escorts defended merchant marine.

Reason why #1 and #2 were implemented is to reduce micromanagement and due to the new pursuit combat.

Only game and rules were updated.

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 12:08:04 AM   
Nirosi

 

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Thanks Alvaro,

Will Carriers groups with the convoy escort advancement still be able to attack subs?

And/or : will Carrier groups and Patrol groups have a better bonus for the sub hunter rule (compared to warship advancement for example)?

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 12:14:38 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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escorts get the bonus from sub hunters. I did a little research before I developed this system. Just stick a CV group + a DD group out in a convoy lane and sit there. They add +3% (in this case) to all sub convoy attacks within a 24 hex radius to each escort.

If someone cheeses early and just puts all the DDs and DVs in convoy lanes its a +10% bonus in 1939.

But the subs can still split up and force the fleets to split up also.

Overall this should reduce wild swings from CV attacks and reduce micromanagement of CV vs sub.

I was noticing CV - Sub cat mouse chances really skewed the early game too often. It should have some variance in effectiveness but this would be due to tricky, deception and over many variables not just getting lucky twice with a CV fleet crippling subs.

It was well received in Pacific. So I back implemented it here.

Players shouldnt have to chase down subs with CVs.

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Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
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Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 1:26:46 AM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi Alvarao,

What I meant is that some DDs have the Convoy escort advancement but some have the Warship advancement. For CVs, one can build special anti-sub CV with the Convoy escort advancement. Will the DDs and the CVs with Convoy escort advancement be more effective when put in a convoy (they are after all better vs subs on the map itself on normal fleet battles) compared to the standards DDs and Cvs?

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 4:16:43 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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They will not. The advancement is if they are attacked directly. These advancements were reworked some in WarPlan Pacific.

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Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
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- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 6:18:20 AM   
Meteor2


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Fantastic to see, that discussions and observations from this forum are making their way into WP Pacific.
For me, a purchase on day one. With Alvaros support and this active forum members nothing can go wrong.
Maybe the long wait for a new WitP (light) is over!

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 1:25:35 PM   
ago1000


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Sub Hunters
Another awesome addition. Thank you.




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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 4:44:57 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

escorts get the bonus from sub hunters. I did a little research before I developed this system. Just stick a CV group + a DD group out in a convoy lane and sit there. They add +3% (in this case) to all sub convoy attacks within a 24 hex radius to each escort.

If someone cheeses early and just puts all the DDs and DVs in convoy lanes its a +10% bonus in 1939.

But the subs can still split up and force the fleets to split up also.

Overall this should reduce wild swings from CV attacks and reduce micromanagement of CV vs sub.

I was noticing CV - Sub cat mouse chances really skewed the early game too often. It should have some variance in effectiveness but this would be due to tricky, deception and over many variables not just getting lucky twice with a CV fleet crippling subs.

It was well received in Pacific. So I back implemented it here.

Players shouldn't have to chase down subs with CVs.


In no particular order

Looks like the wild swings have moved rather than dampened down.

What does a 6% bigger chance of a hit by escorts mean? I assume it means that a 5% chance now becomes 11%. That would be worthwhile, though 30% to 36 would be a lot less so.

I don't think I've ever got a double hit vs subs at sea - and to get 1 is a time for rare rejoicing.
This will make subs more effective, so shouldn't the price to up, or the escort cost go down especially as keeping all the allied CVs and patrol grps at sea will cost a fortune for oilers
re Pacific - that's very different because both sides benefit from the new rules. Allied ships in WP have no useful function as convoy raiders, apart from when the Baltic freezes, and most Gs turn that route off anyway

My biggest concern gripe is the new rule allowing 2 attacks every turn even if you have spent the whole turn moving 48 hexes moving at max speed. Not sure how ships can do this whilst aircraft and land units rightly can't. Defies the logic of the game, and is is a massive bonus for the axis. Surface raiders effectively become untouchable unless what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander so that pursuers can also move full distance and attack them twice and if you can do that at sea you should be able to attack ships in port the same way; not that catching up with someone who moves as fast as you is usually possible, to say the least. If you can catch up somehow, attacks vs raiders are unlikely to be successful.Not that catching up with someone who moves as fast as you is usually possible, to say the least. Further if you can do that at sea you should be able to attack ships in port the same way. It all gets a bit silly, and not in a good way IMHO. The uboats with 48 MPs will also simply be able to move out of the 24 hex radius of the sub hunters making them ineffective.

With a good axis naval player, this could well be a game breaker. I currently have no enthusiasm for playing with the changes in this beta

NB I love this game (at least until now) so I hope I am proved wrong or else the changes are balanced out before the official patch.



< Message edited by sillyflower -- 11/22/2020 5:00:22 PM >


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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 6:00:50 PM   
ncc1701e


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Do not forget for German raiders the addition of the new pursuit combat rule:

Pursuit Combat – A fleet composed of battle, cruiser, patrol, and carrier groups may perform pursuit combat after moving and expending all their operation points and their move ends within combat range of the enemy. This allows units to attack enemy fleets even if their operation points are all used. Pursuit combat is done as normal combat with some differences. Moving fleets must be in fleet mode, not have been interdicted, not end their move in port, and not combine with another fleet. Normal search rolls are made. Any combat is at 50% combat value. Surface fleets will not succeed in pursuing a carrier fleet.

See this thread:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4913606

German raiders are no longer undefeatable. Typo: undefeatable not invisible.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 11/22/2020 6:33:28 PM >


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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 6:53:14 PM   
sillyflower


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Have now read this. Helpful but if you weren't in range the turn before, you still won't be able to catch them. In the meantime, adieu to the merchant navy. These changes may well not affect the balance significantly or at all in Pacific WP, but naval warfare in WP is completely different because naval warfare in WP is wholly asymmetric

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 8:05:46 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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As to one of the points above, or was it another post, about chasing the raiders and pursuit.

I adjusted end of move raiders damage to compensate for the half damage of pursuit.

Fleets that end their movement with zero operation points inflict 50% the damage just like in pursuit combat.

The Admiral Graf Spee moves into the UK convoy lanes to raid in the South Atlantic. If it moves 24 hexes or less to a new convoy lane it inflicts full raider damage. If it moves more than 24 hexes using both its operation points it will inflict half raider damage on the convoy land.


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- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 8:07:39 PM   
MorningDew

 

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I would first let a few games play out. Right now the exact impact is an educated guess. Just like in real life, the Royal Navy can approach from multiple directions and also, the Germans at some point will need to turn around.

I am for anything that reduces micromanagement, and if the change needs to be tweaked, I am highly confident Alvaro will adjust as he has done consistently.

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 9:19:47 PM   
ncc1701e


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Anybody willing to test all these changes?
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4914740

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RE: WarPlan Beta 9U16 - 11/22/2020 9:27:34 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

As to one of the points above, or was it another post, about chasing the raiders and pursuit.

I adjusted end of move raiders damage to compensate for the half damage of pursuit.

Fleets that end their movement with zero operation points inflict 50% the damage just like in pursuit combat.

The Admiral Graf Spee moves into the UK convoy lanes to raid in the South Atlantic. If it moves 24 hexes or less to a new convoy lane it inflicts full raider damage. If it moves more than 24 hexes using both its operation points it will inflict half raider damage on the convoy land.



That will help a lot I think

testing will tell and I'm confident it will turn out OK in the end

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web exchange

Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 14
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