Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Pilot Training

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Pilot Training Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 8:02:35 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5915
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
Basically two questions and after all this time testing stuff, reading stuff, palying I still don't know.

Given everthing else EQUAL, what's the difference between training sweep or escort, also training between airfield and ground?

I can find none.
Post #: 1
RE: Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 8:18:18 AM   
jdsrae


Posts: 1751
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: The Land Downunder
Status: offline
Depends on altitude.
I train escort at 5k+ and it improves air and defence skills.
I train sweep at 100’ and that trains strafe and defence skills.

I won’t comment on ground vs airfield training as I don’t know.
I only train ground attack at 5k+ to get ground bombing and defence skill increases.


_____________________________

Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no CrackSabbath): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 2
RE: Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 9:05:54 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15699
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Basically two questions and after all this time testing stuff, reading stuff, palying I still don't know.

Given everthing else EQUAL, what's the difference between training sweep or escort, also training between airfield and ground?

I can find none.

You need to understand the difference between a mission type and a skill type.
Sweep and Escort are mission types that have specific mission profiles. Sweep goes out and looks for enemy aircraft then returns and lands if it doesn't find any. Escort will accompany bombers on their mission and try to protect them, and a portion of Escort mission can be set to provide CAP over a base or LRCAP over a distant hex that has something in it.

Both Escort and Sweep use the Air skill, which is related to air combat.
Attacking targets on the ground use the GrdB skill if the altitude is 2000 feet or above, or the LowG skill if lower than 2000 feet. At 100' the aircraft will mostly strafe but if it has bombs it will drop those too. There is a specific Strafe skill.
It gets complicated when you start looking at the aircraft type and the interplay between altitude and their attack profile. I won't get into that here.

It therefore does not matter whether you train your land bombing pilots to bomb an airfield, a port, industry or troops - they all use the same skill.

Read Alfred's posts on the Air Combat Model ... https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4793928&mpage=3? Posts 84 and 85

< Message edited by BBfanboy -- 11/21/2020 9:08:46 AM >


_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 3
RE: Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 11:28:11 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5915
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
Thanks for the replies

When I said all thing equal I meant alt, range, leader or anything else that could, might or does influence training.

So from these posts there's no difference in sweep/escort training nor airfield/port/ground/industry training.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 4
RE: Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 11:57:21 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14510
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
Training mission type is more relevant to the type of plane you're using to train with. Each aircraft type has a list of missions it can be assigned to, and some can do them at night or day while others can only do specific things during the day. For instance, a Kate can do night naval search and Jill models without radar cannot, even though the Kates are without radar as well. So when you're selecting the mission type to train with you're getting the menu available for that specific aircraft, not for a specific air pilot skill. Yes sweep and escort use the same skill so there's no difference in training result. Seems to me I've run into an aircraft type that was capable of sweep but not escort or it could sweep but not provide CAP. I'm probably hallucinating.

_____________________________

Currently fighting for the Emperor against AW1Steve. As of 10/20 it is 3/45.

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 5
RE: Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 12:14:09 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 2608
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Sydney
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Thanks for the replies

When I said all thing equal I meant alt, range, leader or anything else that could, might or does influence training.

So from these posts there's no difference in sweep/escort training nor airfield/port/ground/industry training.


Why would you assume that that there is no difference between port or airfield attack training?

_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 6
RE: Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 4:12:04 PM   
alimentary

 

Posts: 134
Joined: 3/22/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R
Why would you assume that that there is no difference between port or airfield attack training?

Because the relevant skill is the same. A decision on the part of the developers to have one result in different skill-up chances than the other would be needless complication. And pretty cheesy if there were an advantage to be gained against those not able to peruse the code.

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 7
RE: Pilot Training - 11/21/2020 5:08:02 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 15699
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Thanks for the replies

When I said all thing equal I meant alt, range, leader or anything else that could, might or does influence training.

So from these posts there's no difference in sweep/escort training nor airfield/port/ground/industry training.


Why would you assume that that there is no difference between port or airfield attack training?

Because there is no difference in the skill that is trained - it is GrdB or LowG, depending on the altitude used. Even if you train your DBs at 10,000 feet so that they dive bomb, you are just training GrdB skill. Are you saying there is some other difference in choosing one over the other?


_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 8
RE: Pilot Training - 11/22/2020 3:24:10 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 6517
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

For instance, a Kate can do night naval search and Jill models without radar cannot, even though the Kates are without radar as well.


As far as I can see neither may do night search w/o radar.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 9
RE: Pilot Training - 11/22/2020 4:40:32 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 2608
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Sydney
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

Thanks for the replies

When I said all thing equal I meant alt, range, leader or anything else that could, might or does influence training.

So from these posts there's no difference in sweep/escort training nor airfield/port/ground/industry training.


Why would you assume that that there is no difference between port or airfield attack training?

Because there is no difference in the skill that is trained - it is GrdB or LowG, depending on the altitude used. Even if you train your DBs at 10,000 feet so that they dive bomb, you are just training GrdB skill. Are you saying there is some other difference in choosing one over the other?



@alimentary - I think we are at cross purposes - the experience gain likely reflects the actual skill used, whatever that is.

@BBfanboy- It folds into your earlier comments about altitude and aircraft type. Do we know for sure that the port attack algorithm doesn't also take target type*, and weapon type employed**, into account in the individual combat calculation for each pilot+aircraft? It does for air to air combat - see manual 19.3 second paragraph. See also the design note about raid based combat in section 21.1. Small packets of aircraft resolve their specific combat in a tactical fashion, separate to other packets.

[*Which in the instance of a port attack, could be a ship. A stationary ship "at anchor", per the manual. Or a land installation like fuel supply. CD gun units (and other support types) are possible "other targets" in port attack.]

And, gentlemen, there is another layer of complication added to this. While in the general air mission description the manual says port attack units carry bombs, in section 7.2.1.7 it also says this: [Cross ref ** above]

quote:

Bombers attacking ports will attack any ships at anchor 50% of the time, however, TF’s docked
in port will not be attacked. These attacks use bombs with only a small percentage of torpedo
bombers using torpedoes (as it is assumed these ships may be in dry dock or protected by
torpedo nets). If there are less than 10 ships at port, the chance of bombers attacking ships
lessens with each number less than 10 (so, bombers would be more likely to attack ships if 9
were in port as opposed to 4).


That adds another layer to the question - there are some hoops to jump through to get to it, but at some point in the strike packet execution determinations are made:

- does the strike packet press the attack (CAP related)

- does the strike packet target ships in port

- are the striking aircraft TBs, and if so do they/any of use torpedoes.

- the corollary of the proceeding determination is they dive to 200 feet and make their run-in to drop.

After working its way down to that point, I would be surprised if the port attack algorithm does not use the torpedo skill for that torpedo attack.


Edit: It also occurs that if you send fighter bombers in at 100' to shoot the place up, they might use their strafe skill.




< Message edited by Ian R -- 11/22/2020 4:51:48 AM >


_____________________________

"You may find that having is not so nearly pleasing a thing as wanting. It is not logical, but it is often true."
- Cdr Spock


Ian R

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 10
RE: Pilot Training - 11/22/2020 7:18:53 AM   
Chris21wen

 

Posts: 5915
Joined: 1/17/2002
From: Cottesmore, Rutland
Status: offline
I think we are talking about two separate things here, pure training and how that is implemented in practice.

As far as I'm aware no one knows if there's any hidden code the does differentiate between say, airfield and ground attack despite being able to train in them. There is no ground attack skill, just ground bombing.

There's two possiblities here, it's hidden or it was never implemented either way it makes no difference to what you see in triaining and it's impossible to compare in practice. If you beleive it makes a difference then keep on doing it.


(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 11
RE: Pilot Training - 11/23/2020 12:51:25 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14510
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
The skill set you see is all there is. Ground, low ground and strafe. Naval, low naval and strafe. The pilots don't have secret files on skills you don't know about. I presume ground attack skills are what's used for strategic bombing. Just think about it. Do you know of any pilots who really do well dive bombing even though their skill levels are the same as pilots who don't do well at dive-bombing? There's no bucket that says this guy trained at night and that guy didn't.

_____________________________

Currently fighting for the Emperor against AW1Steve. As of 10/20 it is 3/45.

(in reply to Chris21wen)
Post #: 12
RE: Pilot Training - 11/23/2020 12:54:14 AM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14510
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
If they had these secret files why rate a squadron as carrier-trained or not when you could know whether or not each pilot trained on carriers? edit: I should have said "whether or not (and how much) experience each pilot had on carriers.

< Message edited by geofflambert -- 11/23/2020 12:57:04 AM >


_____________________________

Currently fighting for the Emperor against AW1Steve. As of 10/20 it is 3/45.

(in reply to geofflambert)
Post #: 13
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Pilot Training Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.133