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Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/17/2020 9:08:38 PM   
MarcA


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Hi folks

Do the allies have any base forces which can supply torpedos, like Air HQ's?

Thanks

Marc
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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/17/2020 9:10:00 PM   
Leandros


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Not that I know of - would be good to know!

Fred

< Message edited by Leandros -- 11/17/2020 9:12:46 PM >


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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/17/2020 9:18:03 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcA

Hi folks

Do the allies have any base forces which can supply torpedos, like Air HQ's?

Thanks

Marc


When the game was first released, a few large Allied naval BFs could supply torpedoes. That was changed a few years later to allow only Air HQs and Command HQs to supply them.

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/17/2020 9:37:52 PM   
MarcA


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarcA

Hi folks

Do the allies have any base forces which can supply torpedos, like Air HQ's?

Thanks

Marc


When the game was first released, a few large Allied naval BFs could supply torpedoes. That was changed a few years later to allow only Air HQs and Command HQs to supply them.


Thanks for that

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/18/2020 1:55:33 AM   
PaxMondo


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Yeah, to confirm, not in any of the official scenarios. BUT, mods could in fact do so. It is one of the (many) things that you need to look at in a mod.

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/18/2020 11:58:46 AM   
Ian R

 

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I tend to put naval support squads, and torpedoes, in the TOE of allied naval HQs in the private version of my LRTT mod.

It makes them much more useful.

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Ian R

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/18/2020 6:50:34 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I tend to put naval support squads, and torpedoes, in the TOE of allied naval HQs in the private version of my LRTT mod.

It makes them much more useful.

Ian,

I find that I agree with you. A bit surprising that Naval HQ's don't supply torps. I suspect that they were excluded to minimize the number of torps within the game. Not sure exactly why, but I can only surmise that it mimics history.

One thing is known: torp transport and storage was far more difficult than bombs. For whatever reason, neither side invested overly in torp transport/storage locations (meaning they weren't every where, whereas bombs were pretty much mundane munitions along with arty shells).

My opinion is that, just like many players, torps were useful, but as the war moved on, it was found that 1000lb (500kg) bombs were more effective; not more damage per se but more accurate and so more accrued damage. And less losses in delivery ...

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/18/2020 7:13:42 PM   
RangerJoe


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A 500 Kg bomb is more like 1100 pounds.

There really weren't that many torpedoes built, if I remember correctly only 10,000 torpedoes of all types in total were built by the US.

But as far as Naval support not to mention air support, there are some detachments for the US in the game that have those.

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/18/2020 10:39:53 PM   
Moltrey


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If you think about it the constraint makes sense. Everything I have read relating to sub warfare (regardless of faction/nation) points to husbanding of torpedoes due to their high cost. Hell, everyone here probably knows the poster child for this, the USN Bureau that refused to test the Mark XIV mainly due to the costs involved during the pre-war period. As PaxMondo mentioned, they were never as easy to transport and they were finicky unless treated with care and a high level of maintenance.

I seem to remember reading about the USN only having one major facility on the west coast (either LA or SD, can't recall) that received the various sections and parts and assembled them in a warehouse. They only had limited space so expansion was practically impossible, thus impacting the availability. It was also one of the reasons the "faulty fourteen" kept getting issued, that's what was on-hand and ready. The Navy certainly wasn't going to throw them away at their cost. I'd say the Devs hit pretty close to the mark, no pun intended.

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/19/2020 6:58:14 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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I'd also like to question the use of army air HQ being able to supply them. Historically how many army a/c could used them? Using just Navy air HQ would make them very sparse indeed unless you allowed Naval HQs themselves.

I know nothing about the subject, just curiosity.

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/19/2020 12:16:29 PM   
PaxMondo


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I think that was just a concession to the game mechanics (Army Air HQ's with torps).

Yeah torps were (are) expensive, but I think it was more the handling issues as opposed to the cost (once the war started). There might also have been technical shortages ... torp experts were shortage, the fuel was special (relative to other weapons), yadi yadi yadi ... but the end of it is, there simply weren't all that many torps available and it was on both sides.

So, that's why in my mod, torp availability is still pretty limited.

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/19/2020 12:47:37 PM   
RangerJoe


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Ten thousand dollars per Mark 14 torpedo, if I recall correctly.

The torpedo fuel was 100% ethanol which could be used for rocket fuel - or punch!

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/19/2020 5:24:27 PM   
Alfred

 

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Compared to the availability of bombs, the availability of torpedoes is intended to be restricted in AE.  You are all overlooking the tools on hand for the devs to achieve this relative scarcity without having to undertake a very serious code rewrite.

1.  Air launched torpedoes came under the purview of the Air Team.  Sea launched torpedoes came under the purview of the Naval Team.  Just as the disbanding rules were implemented differently by the Land Team compared to how the Air Team handled it (and the close cousin, ship withdrawal by the Naval Team), you have two different solutions.

2.  The Naval Team independently developed a much more rigorous structure for rearming vessels.  Port size, ship tenders, naval support squads, operational points et al, could be used to restrict the rearming of sea launched torpedoes.  Even the possibility of damage to the torpedo weapon slots and the consequent issue of getting them "repaired", adds further tools to the Naval Team.

3.  By contrast to the tools available to the Naval Team, the Air Team had virtually none.  Rearming any type of aircraft at an airfield is extremely abstracted.  There is a different cost in supply consumption between rearming a 16" naval gun and a 40mm Bofors.  Now compare that naval rearming cost with the supply consumption cost of rearming an aircraft.  Try spotting the supply cost differential between rearming a fighter aircraft with .303 bullets, or a Wirraway with it's 100lb bombs, or the 500lb bombs of a Liberator.  Don't forget that size of airfield, unlike port size, doesn't come into play.

4.  Considering their available tools, the Air Team decided to separate air launched torpedo rearming from the bog standard aircraft rearming approach.  A simplistic supply quantum presence, scaled to airfield size (but note this has nothing to do with actual supply consumption ) together with the airfield falling within the umbrella of Air HQ/Command HQ range, would be necessary for the availability of air launched torpedoes at that airfield.  There aren't that many Air/Command HQs so that acts to achieve relative scarcity.  To enable Base Forces to also dispense torpedoes was considered by the devs to seriously unbalance the game as it really would provide no limit on the availability of air launched torpedoes.  Just count up the number of Base Forces in the game compared with the number of Air/Command HQs.

5.    It was not the responsibility of the Air Team to fiddle with Naval HQs, which was not in their purview, in order to accommodate air launched torpedoes.  As far as the Naval Team was concerned, there was no need for them to fiddle with Naval HQs (which was in their purview) to accommodate sea launched torpedoes as that issue was more than adequately covered by their much more robust existing logistics system.

6.  There was dev consideration given to making torpedoes a buildable device, like mines are. but there were too many problems with the idea.

(a)  Mines, which are deployed in minefields, are quasi tracked.  There is no similar tracking of torpedoes.

(b)  Mine production rates are low and this is tolerable because the game has ACMs to maintain minefields, again nothing comparable exists for torpedoes.  Besides it was a widespread complaint of classical WITP that mining was overpowered.  Can you imagine the all mighty roar of criticism if the historical torpedo production rates were applied in AE.

(c)  Then again mines don't have varying dud rates whereas Allied torpedoes do.  Try balancing that when limited torpedo production is introduced into the matrix.


Once again, repeat after me, AE is full of abstractions.  Trying to quibble with how the devs decided to abstract "x" in order that it fitted with the code, is the road to madness.

Alfred

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/19/2020 10:39:13 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris21wen

I'd also like to question the use of army air HQ being able to supply them. Historically how many army a/c could used them? Using just Navy air HQ would make them very sparse indeed unless you allowed Naval HQs themselves.

I know nothing about the subject, just curiosity.


I believe the Army experimented with B-26s carrying torpedoes, but I don't think it came to anything. I would think the B-25 could have made an excellent torpedo bomber.

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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/20/2020 12:22:27 AM   
Bearcat2

 

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A-20, B-25 and B-26 could all carry torpedoes, they installed brackets underneath the fuselage and in the A-20's they had to also remove the bomb bay doors. They were used in the North African campaign with dismal results, tended to not work, broke up upon launching, didn't run straight, uneven depth. B-25J's carried them in the Aleutians and also Okinawa.



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RE: Base forces that Supply Torpedos - 11/20/2020 6:14:35 AM   
Chris21wen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearcat2

.... They were used in the North African campaign with dismal results, tended to not work, broke up upon launching, didn't run straight, uneven depth.




The desert will do that

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