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Trade - 11/16/2020 4:35:27 AM   
havoc1371


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August of 1941. Italy is short on oil. I have plenty with the Germans, but the game shows "0" allowed for oil in trade between Germany and Italy. Why can't I have Germany give Italy oil now? I was able to earlier in the game. What causes the "allowed trade" levels of production and oil to fluctuate between Germany and its allies from turn to turn?
Post #: 1
RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 7:16:41 AM   
MagicMissile


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I think a given country can only trade 20% of its production. Couldnt find it in the manual but pretty sure I have read it somewhere. So possibly you have traded that oil to other countries (axis minors) and then there is no oil left to trade with Italy. That is also probably why the numbers fluctuate a little bit depending on changing production from turn to turn.

/MM

(in reply to havoc1371)
Post #: 2
RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 12:15:12 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Thanks I added that to the manual. It is 25% of production and 25% of oil.

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RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 5:48:35 PM   
havoc1371


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Very little oil trade with other minor allies. Germany's use is less than half of production, yet the trade/convoy menu won't allow me to give Italy any, zero. So Italy has 0 oil production suddenly and a requirement for 29, so nothing is sailing or flying. I am finding the radical swings in production and supply from one turn to another frustrating as there isn't readily obvious reasons for it. So I have to stop and rifle through the rules, review the map and charts to try to figure out why it happened. Probably nuances of the game I haven't figured out yet.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 4
RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 6:30:52 PM   
havoc1371


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Okay. Advanced the turn, now Germany can send Italy 10 oil and I've eliminated two air units, but the demand (upkeep) of 29 per turn hasn't changed, so the Italian air and mech/armor are inoperable. Germany shows 79, with an upkeep of 29, and a stockpile of 0 now, and now I am unable to use some of its air and armor/mech. Am I not understanding the chart? Shouldn't it mean that if I have input of 79, upkeep of 29, trade of 11 going out, shouldn't I have a net surplus of 39? Does each use of an air unit/mech/armor use additional oil beyond the "upkeep"? What am I missing? Not seeing an answer in searching the rules.

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Post #: 5
RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 7:06:16 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Most new players burn through oil like a drunk at a bar burns through booze.

In the production screen oil = produced and imported oil.
Upkeep is railing fuel and supply to units that are off rail.
Stockpile is what you have stored.

If you move armor, air, or keep naval at sea you use oil. When you select a unit or fleet it tells you the oil use.
If you have constant Axis fleets out at sea that are non-sub you will burn through oil like crap goes through a goose. Especially the Italians.

You need to plan your operational level campaigns. You just can't willy-nilly throw fleets around without fuel considerations. Even the Allies have to plan a little for this too. WarPlan is very different than other wargames.

Armor and air can't attack without oil. Armor has problems moving without oil.

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- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
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Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to havoc1371)
Post #: 6
RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 7:53:18 PM   
havoc1371


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Not so much spending like a drunk, as not knowing all the aspects of how the system works. I didn't write the rules, so I don't have all of it my head for ready access and understanding. This game is accounting heavy requiring reviewing your economy each turn and math to determine your limits. Thanks for clarifying that. Not fond of having to manually track the oil use of each unit I move or attack with, but I'm sure there are folks who find this interesting in a game. I'll see if I can get used to this system, but I have a feeling I will move on to other things that are more automated, so I don't have to micromanage them.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 7
RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 8:20:07 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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Spend a little more time on it, don't give up so soon, you'll soon see that once you have it configured there is no micromanagement.
I advise you to play a Pbem with a player with little experience, you will learn while having a good time, surely you will have dislikes for not knowing the mechanics well, but the headaches that you will surely make your opponent suffer will compensate you!

(in reply to havoc1371)
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RE: Trade - 11/16/2020 10:40:32 PM   
havoc1371


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Read through the rules with oil, so if there is another way to track your use other than manually going through all your oil using units at the beginning of each turn, determining the total possible usage, then deciding who can move and fight and who can't, I don't see it. Add to that, deciding how much oil to trade to allies to keep them going and tracking their oil usage. A lot of bean counting. I understand it is necessary to control the different countries production of units that need oil, and their operations, but I wish it was done in a way that was more automated, so I can focus more on strategy and the execution of it. Spending 10-15 minutes a turn figuring out my oil logistics before I can play is not entertaining to me; its tedious. I will keep playing to see if I can figure out a way to streamline the process. I suppose if I was playing this game, and only this game, then spending the extra time on each turn might not be as burdensome to me.

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Post #: 9
RE: Trade - 11/17/2020 2:21:59 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Most players are used to SC3 or Unity of Command or CEaW or another game where you can move every unit all the time without regard for supplies. So it is a transition. I can tell you no one micromanages the oil. You get to understand how the logistics pool works and how to use units. I pretty much never look at oil now. I basically only look when I am running around 33% capacity to slow down some of my offensives and consolidate forces. I keep an eye on surface raiders. I know the Italians can't keep their fleet out as sea for long periods. So I plan their offensives.

But it doesn't take bean counting. It just takes practice to realize which countries can do what and which can't and for how much.

For example I rail air units and armor units from front to front and not drive them. I rebase the Italian fleet to another port which costs me no oil except maintenance. Then I take off from that port. At best I keep them at sea for 1 staging turn then one battle turn, then one return to port turn.

I know that at most I can have ~17 air units and ~11 armor/mech for Germany before oil becomes a problem.

Once you get a feel for it there is no micromanagement. You pretty much have decision points like a general in an abstract way with very little counting. Just most players are used to other non-oil games. Even manpower becomes an issue late in the war for Germany and the USSR.

As the Axis you can't do everything all the time just as in the war. Except you have a little more flexibility here.

Even as the Allies you need to watch yourself. Not much but it is possible.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to havoc1371)
Post #: 10
RE: Trade - 11/17/2020 10:54:39 AM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

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It is nothing about micromanage oil. Like Alvaro says, one look at the total and when you have played it for a while you learn to know the limits whit your gut feeling. It is more realustic than any game I know of and there is barely any micro manage in this game.

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Post #: 11
RE: Trade - 11/17/2020 12:03:06 PM   
boldairade

 

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i personally love the oil system(though i too struggled with it at first)

it feeds into what, for me, is the best part of WP: the feel.

the game just feels historically right. and of course, oil considerations WERE a huge influence, historically.

some of us like that the game is tethered to historical reality. without that, it loses a lot of immersion, for me at least.

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Post #: 12
RE: Trade - 11/17/2020 1:34:50 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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SC3 has an incredible event system. I choose not to do this and instead focus on planning and logistics for immersion. It's between SC3 and WitE in complexity.

There is a slight learning curve and I will continue to keep updating it.

_____________________________

Games worked on

Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
- Assault on Communism
- Assault on Democracy

Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

(in reply to boldairade)
Post #: 13
RE: Trade - 11/17/2020 4:05:55 PM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

Spending 10-15 minutes a turn figuring out my oil logistics before I can play is not entertaining to me; its tedious.

I agree that that would be very tedious, but I've probably spent no more than that amount of time per game checking on oil status.
UK should give some to the French especially if german surface ships have come out to play. Other than that, grabbing Iraq and Iran early give you much more oil. I then never have to look at oil levels ever. I don't play axis very often, but I've faced good nazis (if there is such a thing) who seem to have more oil-consuming assets than Alvaro has.

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(in reply to havoc1371)
Post #: 14
RE: Trade - 11/18/2020 9:49:38 PM   
havoc1371


Posts: 56
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I am continuing to play and pretty much the only way I can play without doing inventory is to limit the amount of air and mech I build. I had far less than 17 air and 11 mech/armor for the Germans and was topping out if I tried to use them all. Originally I did build a lot of Italian air (about 8) and armor (4) and they ran out of oil. Because my Germans were low, they weren't allowed to share with the Italians. So in the current game, I've only built one additional Tac air for the Italians and only 2 extra Tac air for the Germans. No additional Italian armor, and only 1 panzer and 3 mech for the Germans. So far so good for not having to micromanage the oil, but the lack of panzers will probably bite me in Barbarossa unless I build more and spend the time inventorying my capacity each turn. Would be nice if the turn summary at the start of each turn listed oil used per unit and total used. Then I can quickly determine my limit for that next turn based on that and remaining capacity. I don't object to resource limits; I just think a "supreme leader" of a world war wouldn't be figuring out their oil capacity every two weeks - some staff logistics would be tracking and telling them.

(in reply to sillyflower)
Post #: 15
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