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Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/14/2020 3:18:14 PM   
BDukes

 

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Hi Everybody

Look like there are many new systems to block or spoof IR, visual seekers in age of drone, Laser and EO weapon. Will CMO civ dig into this? Can actually build the chaff and flare with existing mounts but no work for IR and Visual Seeker.

https://twitter.com/pmakela1/status/1327202605970448385
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9RyNdVThjQ
https://www.popsci.com/china-plans-to-defeat-american-lasers-with-smoke/

Thank
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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/14/2020 4:11:32 PM   
DWReese

 

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I asked for those numerous times as far back as 2014. It's apparently still on a back-burner. <lol>

Honestly, these things are such a staple to modern warfare that I don't see how the game can seriously be considered a viable warfare simulation without addressing these items. Hopefully, they will show up someday.

(in reply to BDukes)
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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/14/2020 5:05:18 PM   
thewood1

 

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"I don't see how the game can seriously be considered a viable warfare simulation"

A little harsh don't you think? I assume you have stopped playing it because of this. I mean, the game covers from 1948 to 2025. There's almost 50 years of playing without even worrying about IR obscurants. Plus probably 50 countries across all the timeframe that don't even consider using them in a modern conflict. So the Korean War, Vietnam War, both major Indo-Pakistan Wars, Arab-Israeli Wars, Falklands War, etc. are unplayable?

Its one thing to ask for something and say it impacts certain scenarios, but to throw the entire game down the drain because of it seems a little hyperbolic.

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/14/2020 5:27:54 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I asked for those numerous times as far back as 2014. It's apparently still on a back-burner. <lol>

Honestly, these things are such a staple to modern warfare that I don't see how the game can seriously be considered a viable warfare simulation without addressing these items. Hopefully, they will show up someday.



Ok probably not so good to ask your help on this one then

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/15/2020 10:45:22 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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I've only skimmed those articles but it seems we could add something like a generic smoke launcher to tanks etc quite easily; doesn't model wind drift or anything like that but will protect your tanks from laser guided weapons similar to the mechanics of other countermeasures systems. Does that sound like a reasonable interim approach?


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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 8:06:35 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Rory

That sounds like a decent solution but I'm wondering, without wind drift, how long would the effect last? Also a question of triggering the smoke, if it is too automatic and/or lasts too long it may serve to make the tanks invulnerable.

Just some thoughts

B

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 8:29:59 PM   
thewood1

 

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IR-blacking obscurants only last seconds and are made to protect from immediate threats so a unit can react. They aren't as useful as regular chemical smoke over large areas or longer times. The large particles and the nature of the materials will quickly dissipate unless its from an actively engaged source.

And some of the materials for generating the obscuration aren't cheap.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 11/17/2020 8:30:52 PM >

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 9:01:28 PM   
DWReese

 

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I don't see it as being harsh at all. I see it as being a reality check.

If this GAME is supposed to be an actual simulation which is capable of being used by actual military entities, then some sort of smoke, either as concealment or to disrupt laser sighting would seem to be needed. It would make no sense to have it only available in the Professional Edition since it is such an important aspect of MODERN warfare. Based on Rory's comments, it doesn't appear to be included in the PE version, so I don't think that the comment is unwarranted. That doesn't mean that the game is trash. It isn't. It's great. But, smoke, and other decoys are very important to a SIMULATION. Games might be able to get by without having these features, but SIMULATIONS shouldn't. That would be like doing a WWII Pacific Theater but not including Dive Bombers, or subs.

I sincerely wish that they would add these items because they are important to MODERN warfare, just as the OP stated.

< Message edited by DWReese -- 11/17/2020 9:06:20 PM >

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 9:16:27 PM   
DWReese

 

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Here's a nice link with regard to IR decoys and smoke. It contains several additional articles hidden within the initial link.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/253411028_Infrared_decoy_and_obscurant_modelling_and_simulation_for_ship_protection


Here's another really good article on the topic. This pertains to tanks, but it is along the same lines of what we are talking about:

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/docs/3aps98.pdf


And, here's one more which explains it very well. Some of it will be repetitive. It merely points out the significance of it on the modern day battlefield.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5982648/

< Message edited by DWReese -- 11/17/2020 9:24:30 PM >

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 9:28:41 PM   
thewood1

 

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btw, as I pointed out, its only a small piece of modern warfare. A very small piece. 1950 to 1990 its not an issue at all. Even beyond that, its only specific to certain matchups of technology.

You said "I don't see how the game can seriously be considered a viable warfare simulation". So not being able simulate in detail a portion of defensive warfare that is limited in matchups over a limited timeframe means its unable to simulate any warfare? Is that not what you said? Did I misquote you? I just copy/pasted from your post.

Now you are throwing around things as examples that I am not quite sure what they mean. Dive bombing in WW2. A technique used for almost 60 years in one form or another.

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 9:35:14 PM   
DWReese

 

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quote:

Let me know when you start playing again.


I don't understand what you mean. I play every day. I constantly have the game on. I sandbox all day long. I often test the scenarios of many scenario designers here that most of you never even know about, and I participate in the Saturday Play throughs with Kushan every week.

So, I don't know what you are trying to imply. Just because I agree with the OP that the game/simulation would be best suited if it included some form of smoke/IR disruption doesn't mean that I am unhappy with the game. Quite the contrary. As I said, it's great, but it could be better.

We are constantly asked what features would we like to see. Well, I agree with the OP, and this is one that I would like to see. That's the end of the story. There's really nothing else to say. It's my opinion. You are obviously entitled to a differing point of view.


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Post #: 11
RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 9:48:45 PM   
thewood1

 

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I have no issues with people asking for new features. Its how the game grows. But statements like this...

"I don't see how the game can seriously be considered a viable warfare simulation"

A blanket statement that doesn't do anyone any good and I suspect make people less likely to support the change. Some people have their favorite pet issues with any game. But declaring the game being unable to be taken seriously is just hyperbole that usually has the opposite effect of what is expected.

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/17/2020 10:27:25 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rory Noonan

I've only skimmed those articles but it seems we could add something like a generic smoke launcher to tanks etc quite easily; doesn't model wind drift or anything like that but will protect your tanks from laser guided weapons similar to the mechanics of other countermeasures systems. Does that sound like a reasonable interim approach?



Thank you for reply

I think this approach is fine for what I need. I ask for a dug in switch too at some point and if already in the code to give unit quality maybe can do this too (tank gets revetment armor).

Chaff clouds were implemented some time ago. If can't do about perhaps a variation on those?

Thank!


(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 13
RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/18/2020 11:39:03 PM   
Rory Noonan

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BDukes


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rory Noonan

I've only skimmed those articles but it seems we could add something like a generic smoke launcher to tanks etc quite easily; doesn't model wind drift or anything like that but will protect your tanks from laser guided weapons similar to the mechanics of other countermeasures systems. Does that sound like a reasonable interim approach?



Thank you for reply

I think this approach is fine for what I need. I ask for a dug in switch too at some point and if already in the code to give unit quality maybe can do this too (tank gets revetment armor).

Chaff clouds were implemented some time ago. If can't do about perhaps a variation on those?

Thank!




No problem, I'll implement some generic smoke launchers as a test unit and go from there. The revement thing is a little more involved as it will include UI changes, so that's for another day.

The chaff cloud model does look promising for adapting to smoke... Eventually

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RE: Smoke-Laser and IR obscure - 11/19/2020 7:20:36 PM   
BDukes

 

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Cool. Thank you!

(in reply to Rory Noonan)
Post #: 15
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