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[1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected by design choices

 
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[1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected by ... - 11/14/2020 1:05:07 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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In a game I started in the new beta patch, when designing an aircraft model, if I select a prop or turboprop engine or a helicopter design, the aircraft maximum ground and air speed is always fixed to 366 km/h for props/turboprops and to 174 km/h for helicopters according to the design prognosis, regardless of other design choices. This is the same regardless of whether the aircraft is equipped with the most powerful engine possible and the minimum possible load, or with the weakest engine and the maximum possible load.

I have tried this with ultralight, light and medium aircraft and light helicopters. Jet and rocket engine max speeds do vary based on design choices, as expected.

The planet in question has 0,5g gravity and 42% atmospheric density (EDIT: atmospheric composition 16,29% oxygen). It's possible this is working as intended and the thin atmosphere just imposes a low speed cap on craft propelled by aerodynamic forces, but I do not know enough about aeronautics to say whether that makes sense.

EDIT: Spelling.

< Message edited by Soar_Slitherine -- 11/14/2020 1:59:56 PM >
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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/18/2020 11:41:51 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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In b13, I have another planet, 0,8g, 85% atmospheric density and 40% oxygen, where listed design prognosis prop/turboprop maximum airspeed is always fixed to 735 km/h and rotor to 350 km/h, regardless of the details of the design. An excessively loaded aircraft might be declared not viable because of an unachievable minimum takeoff speed, but the listed maximum airspeed is completely fixed irrespective of engine power, weight or wing profile.

(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)
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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/19/2020 7:04:16 PM   
Vic


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There is a limit with the soundbarrier... your design needs to have an aerodynamic rating of over 50. This might need some better explaining.
I will look into this further for beta15.

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(in reply to Soar_Slitherine)
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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/19/2020 7:58:00 PM   
Soar_Slitherine

 

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It's not surprising for propellercraft to have an upper limit on speed, but the max speed refusing to budge downwards when the aircraft is a whale with a lawnmower engine is more strange.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 4
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/19/2020 9:24:41 PM   
Destragon

 

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I also just noticed something weird on this topic and I'm not sure if it's bugged or I'm missing something about the physics involved.
I'm designing a medium aircraft with super heavy propeller, large wings, 5k fuel tank, no weapons or cargo space. It gets a maximum ground speed of 107.
If I do the same, but with a 60k fuel tank, it gets a maximum ground speed of 204. Why does it have a higher ground speed despite more weight?

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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/20/2020 8:48:57 AM   
Vic


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I agree!
making changes to the calculations for beta15

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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/20/2020 7:10:18 PM   
Destragon

 

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I'm just testing airplane design on beta 15 and it still looks like the more fuel the plane carries, the faster it's max ground speed is. If max ground speed depends on weight, gravity, friction, etc, shouldn't it be the opposite?

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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 7:20:16 AM   
battlefield91

 

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For my understanding max ground speed is the speed needed to lift up... So heavier plane equals more speed needed to get into air.

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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 8:45:03 AM   
Destragon

 

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Nah, that is "minimum takeoff speed". If your max ground speed is lower than your minimum takeoff speed, the plane won't be able to lift into the air.
When you put additional weight on your plane, it should be increasing the minimum takeoff speed and also decreasing the max ground speed, but instead what happens is that it increases BOTH the min takeoff and max ground speeds. This makes it easier to put huge fuel tanks onto planes right now.

Edit:
I'm doing some more testing right now. It's behaving a little more weird than I thought. It turns out that if you design a light aircraft with ultralight propeller and medium wings, the max ground speed will REDUCE as you add more weight to it.
HOWEVER, if you design a light airplane with super heavy propeller engine and medium wings, then the max ground speed will INCREASE as you add more weight.

Ultralight and light propellers on a light plane get slower the heavier the plane is.
Medium, heavy, very heavy and super heavy propellers on a light plane get faster the heavier the plane is.

I also noticed that when you have an aircraft that is unable to take off and you press "negative" at the final screen, it will close the whole screen, instead of taking you back to the first screen, like it normally does.

Edit 2:
Another test, light plane with medium propeller, medium wings, 1800l tank, no weapons vs the same design, but with super heavy propeller.
The medium propeller version has a max ground speed of 236 km/h and the super heavy propeller version has 240 km/h.
The super heavy propeller has almost 4 times the engine power of the medium propeller, but it only increases the speed by 4 km/h?

< Message edited by Destragon -- 11/21/2020 11:27:29 AM >

(in reply to battlefield91)
Post #: 9
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 3:31:34 PM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Destragon

Nah, that is "minimum takeoff speed". If your max ground speed is lower than your minimum takeoff speed, the plane won't be able to lift into the air.
When you put additional weight on your plane, it should be increasing the minimum takeoff speed and also decreasing the max ground speed, but instead what happens is that it increases BOTH the min takeoff and max ground speeds. This makes it easier to put huge fuel tanks onto planes right now.

Edit:
I'm doing some more testing right now. It's behaving a little more weird than I thought. It turns out that if you design a light aircraft with ultralight propeller and medium wings, the max ground speed will REDUCE as you add more weight to it.
HOWEVER, if you design a light airplane with super heavy propeller engine and medium wings, then the max ground speed will INCREASE as you add more weight.

Ultralight and light propellers on a light plane get slower the heavier the plane is.
Medium, heavy, very heavy and super heavy propellers on a light plane get faster the heavier the plane is.

I also noticed that when you have an aircraft that is unable to take off and you press "negative" at the final screen, it will close the whole screen, instead of taking you back to the first screen, like it normally does.

Edit 2:
Another test, light plane with medium propeller, medium wings, 1800l tank, no weapons vs the same design, but with super heavy propeller.
The medium propeller version has a max ground speed of 236 km/h and the super heavy propeller version has 240 km/h.
The super heavy propeller has almost 4 times the engine power of the medium propeller, but it only increases the speed by 4 km/h?


Which version did you use for this test?

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(in reply to Destragon)
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RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 5:57:46 PM   
Destragon

 

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It was a new game started on the latest beta 15.

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 11
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 6:08:18 PM   
Vic


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Just to be sure... if you mouse over the Scn version# in the dashboard report does it say scenario version 15, 15b or 15b-2 ?
best,
Vic

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Post #: 12
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 6:10:13 PM   
Vic


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Anyway it sounds like it could be okay to me. Maybe a planet with lower air pressure? Are the maximum speeds of the 2 aircraft very different?

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Post #: 13
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 6:29:08 PM   
Destragon

 

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I'm gonna put together a little image that compares the numbers in a bit.
And yeah, it's beta 15 b2 game.

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Post #: 14
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/21/2020 8:45:33 PM   
Destragon

 

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The more I look at these numbers, the more confused I get. I don't know much about airplane physics, so I dunno what's really bugged here, but I'm gonna give my opinion on what at least seems weird to me.
This is a lot of data. I double checked, but it's possible that I made a mistake anyway. So, sorry in case something is wrong.

There are 5 things here that are weird to me:
1: Most of the time, when you increase the weight of the plane, the max ground speed increases. This makes it so that it is easier for a heavily loaded plane to take off than I think it's supposed to be.
2: Sometimes the max ground speed DECREASES when you increase the weight. I have no idea why it sometimes increases and sometimes decreases.
3: Why is the min take off speed for the ultralight propellers so much higher than for way heavier planes with heavier engines? For example, the ultralight propeller plane that weighs 8k has a min take off speed of 161 km/h and the super heavy propeller plane that weighs 14k only has a min take off speed of 150 km/h.
4: If you only look at the planes in the first column, you see that the ultralight propeller plane has a higher min take off speed than the light propeller plane, the light one has a higher one than the medium propeller plane, but the medium one has a LOWER one than the super heavy one. Again, I'm really confused by this.
5: The super heavy propeller has almost 4 times as much engine power as the medium propeller, but they perform very similarly, with only a difference of 4 km/h in their max ground speed. It makes me wonder if the super heavy engines possibly underperform or something.


(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 15
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/22/2020 1:29:30 AM   
Clux


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I'm going to give my grain of salt (I'm not expert on aeronautics but I've played a lot Air Combat simulators (mainly IL-2 series).

The Minimum takeoff speed should be the less weight you have, the easier its to take off

The Maximum takeoff speed should be the more weight you have, its easier to keep a high speed without taking off, this means than heavier aircraft should have a narrower minimum-maximum takeoff speed.

The Maximum Air Speed should be a combination of the engine to weight ratio, engine power and wing size meaning than the higher the engine to weight ratio you should be able to achieve higher speeds, but if the engine isn't big enough there should be a limit unless you increase it, and the bigger the plane is, the harder its to achieve higher speeds without upgrading the engine.

(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 16
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/22/2020 9:36:16 AM   
Destragon

 

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The thing is, the game doesn't even mention a maximum takeoff speed. If the max ground speed is capped off by a secretly calculated speed at which the plane is forced into the air, then I could see how adding weight would increase a plane's max ground speed.
The ingame design log only says that max ground speed is "Modified by friction, aerodynamism and notably gravity.", not that it's capped. If those are the only things influencing max ground speed, then I'd assume that higher plane weight would reduce it, because of stronger friction and probably worse aerodynamics.

But even that still makes me confused about the other planes where adding weight suddenly reduces the max ground speed instead of increasing it.

(in reply to Clux)
Post #: 17
RE: [1.05b10] Prop/turboprop/rotor max speed unaffected... - 11/22/2020 6:40:51 PM   
Vic


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I'll take an extra look at that algorithm. I think i know whats going on. Could be improved.

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(in reply to Destragon)
Post #: 18
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