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Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 6:25:44 AM   
Lascar


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As it stands now Norway can be forced to surrender in one turn, with the capture of Oslo. Unlike the historical surrender which occurred two months after the Germans occupied Oslo. Since the Norwegian manpower problem has been corrected in an update it would be interesting to allow for an ongoing Norwegian resistance after the fall of Oslo.

Perhaps Narvik can be given a manpower point or increase the initial strength of the Oslo garrison unit, or both -- to allow for the possibility of Norway to conduct a more prolonged resistance and compelling either a German or allied invader to more carefully weigh the costs of invading Norway.
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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 11:49:15 AM   
Jeff_Ahl

 

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Yeah, Norway should only fall when Narvik and Oslo is occupied.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 1:52:00 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Thanks for suggestion I will consider it.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 3:59:31 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Hi,

If I may, in that case there should be something added somehow to make Norway more explicitly attractive as a target for Germany. Even tough it can be useful to have it (despite heavy ressources to defend it afterward) what I see is that most players tend to think it is not worth it already and just ignore it. If it is made harder to take (just the extra landing craft can be a drag both for the limited PP at start and the shipyards), I am afraid we will even more rarely see a player doing it.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 4:12:38 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I am still thinking of ways to make Norway a positive decision for Germany.

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Post #: 5
RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 4:47:24 PM   
Lascar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nirosi

Hi,

If I may, in that case there should be something added somehow to make Norway more explicitly attractive as a target for Germany. Even tough it can be useful to have it (despite heavy ressources to defend it afterward) what I see is that most players tend to think it is not worth it already and just ignore it. If it is made harder to take (just the extra landing craft can be a drag both for the limited PP at start and the shipyards), I am afraid we will even more rarely see a player doing it.


I have been playing several PBEM games, both as Axis and Allies, and in most games neither player invades Norway. However, in two game my opponent (allies) did invade Norway. One invaded early in the war and another in May '41. The Germans can't really ignore that since it places the allies in the postion where, if they wish, can undertake an aggressive Scandinavian strategy involving taking the Swedish iron ore fields and even advancing into Finland. This also would secure the Lend Lease sea lane to northern Russia. Since Oslo falls on the first turn of the invasion the Norwegian army is out of the picture before the Germans can attempt an intervention to prevent the full occupation of Norway by the allies.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 5:12:23 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Int he current beta the Allies have no landing craft in 1939

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 6:08:16 PM   
Lascar


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Right, that particular game was started under an earlier version.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 9:59:42 PM   
michaelCLARADY

 

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As to prolonged resistance in Norway- that is possible under current Rules. I have seen invasions outright fail due to trying to get by cheap on invasion forces and forcing the garrison out of Oslo but then no movement points to take the city. Also if the Axis player does not make a landing at Narvik the same turn as Oslo is attacked they can be beaten there by an alert Allied player. In that case the Germans will likely never get Narvik. Same logic applies to the other two ports in Norway. Bottomline Norway does not need to be made any more difficult for the Axis. Allied players just need to make better use of their resources.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/13/2020 11:47:03 PM   
Lascar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY

As to prolonged resistance in Norway- that is possible under current Rules. I have seen invasions outright fail due to trying to get by cheap on invasion forces and forcing the garrison out of Oslo but then no movement points to take the city. Also if the Axis player does not make a landing at Narvik the same turn as Oslo is attacked they can be beaten there by an alert Allied player. In that case the Germans will likely never get Narvik. Same logic applies to the other two ports in Norway. Bottomline Norway does not need to be made any more difficult for the Axis. Allied players just need to make better use of their resources.


As the rules stand now it is not difficult for the Germans to take out Norway in one turn. The standard should not be the least competent player but the competent one. The Germans committed most of the Kriegsmarine, and suffered heavy causualties supporting the invasion of Norway. If capturing Oslo was all that was needed to conquer Norway their only naval loss with have been the Blucher. It took them the equivalent of 4 game turns to complete that conquest.

Unlike geographically small countries like Belgium (30,000 kilometers) and the Netherlands (41.000), Norway has a vast and remote interior (385,000 kilometers)that should allow for continued resistance, as occurred historically.

My main concern though, is an allied invasion of Norway can easily take Oslo and force surrender without any chance for the Germans to effectively counter the allied move against Norway. The entire Norwegian army will capitulate on the first turn of the invasion with the capture of Oslo, which did not historically happen.



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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/14/2020 12:29:10 PM   
sillyflower


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It's not hard to Germans to deploy air and sea assets to deter Allied invasion of Oslo, or then to grab most of the other ports if the allies have not made a major effort, and Oslo will remain very vulnerable to an axis port blockade.

Allies then taking out Sweden is a big ask by any standards, especially given the lack of port capacity in north Norway. I would any axis player to welcome the diversion of allied troops to an such a sideshow. Narvik is v. useful for the allies to hold, but that's about it IMHO.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/14/2020 5:07:54 PM   
battlevonwar


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Norway has too many ports and too little production. You cannot really protect your convoys by grabbing it nor do you gain anything in return of decent quality. You need a lot of garrisons and a Corp or Medium Corp for Oslo and that could be better used elsewhere. The Allies also don't really need Norway nor gain much from taking it. You garnish 1 Resource point of 1% gain and 1 production? Which is roughly 5 production per turn? For 70-100 turns? It takes awhile to get back the resources and manpower you pumped into it.

I would program in an event if the Axis take Norway they gain 2-3 Medium Corp with Winter Training for Norway. That would offset the cost some. Or up the value to a production that pays early enough to make it worth it?

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 11/14/2020 5:08:26 PM >

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/14/2020 5:52:41 PM   
Lascar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sillyflower

It's not hard to Germans to deploy air and sea assets to deter Allied invasion of Oslo, or then to grab most of the other ports if the allies have not made a major effort, and Oslo will remain very vulnerable to an axis port blockade.

Allies then taking out Sweden is a big ask by any standards, especially given the lack of port capacity in north Norway. I would any axis player to welcome the diversion of allied troops to an such a sideshow. Narvik is v. useful for the allies to hold, but that's about it IMHO.

Once the Germans are committed to fighting in Russia and in the Mediterranean they would not likely be able to keep bomber assets in place to counter an allied invasion of Norway. As for the Kriegsmarine blockading Oslo, that would be a good opportunity for the Royal Navy to sink most of it. The Kriegsmarine did perform well vs the Royal Navy in the actual invasion of Norway.

Not necessary to take out Sweden, just capture the Iron Ore mines in Lapland to inflict a significant production loss to the Germans.

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Post #: 13
RE: Norway Surrender - 11/14/2020 5:54:56 PM   
Lascar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: battlevonwar

Norway has too many ports and too little production. You cannot really protect your convoys by grabbing it nor do you gain anything in return of decent quality. You need a lot of garrisons and a Corp or Medium Corp for Oslo and that could be better used elsewhere. The Allies also don't really need Norway nor gain much from taking it. You garnish 1 Resource point of 1% gain and 1 production? Which is roughly 5 production per turn? For 70-100 turns? It takes awhile to get back the resources and manpower you pumped into it.

I would program in an event if the Axis take Norway they gain 2-3 Medium Corp with Winter Training for Norway. That would offset the cost some. Or up the value to a production that pays early enough to make it worth it?


Its not really about the resources of Norway itself, but the strategic location of Norway astride the sea lane to northern Russia and its close proximity to the Swedish iron mines.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/16/2020 2:57:41 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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quote:

Its not really about the resources of Norway itself, but the strategic location of Norway astride the sea lane to northern Russia and its close proximity to the Swedish iron mines.


I am not sure this applies to the game. In the real world yes, but in the game Norway is just something you have to defend to get any use out of it at all. Naval movement allows the German raiders to easily strike it but they don't need to since they can damage Allied shipping from any of the other sea lanes. Having Norway doesn't change your access to Swedish Iron Mines as far as I can tell.

A lot of this lack of usefulness is because, unlike real world, air power based out of Norway can't strike Merchants going to Russia or strike at England (unless Germany build strategic bombers).

Taking Norway seems to only get you one VP/turn and a whole lot of headaches.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/16/2020 3:09:11 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Taking Norway gives you 1PP +1% on overall production with the strategic resource. It is worth ~500 PP for the game in exchange for 300PPs of units.
I am considering increasing the resource to 10PPs to make it a better option.

The Strategic aspect is that your subs can base out of Narvik, move, and attack the convoy in 1 turn.

I have been trying to manage to make air units be a convoy raider. It is very tough to do in code due to the processing power it takes which will slowdown the turns. I am trying to come up with some NASA type code engineering to find an easier work around.

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Designer of the Strategic Command 2 products
- Brute Force (mod)
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Designer of the Strategic Command 3 products
- Map Image Importer

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/21/2020 8:17:56 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I have been trying to manage to make air units be a convoy raider. It is very tough to do in code due to the processing power it takes which will slowdown the turns. I am trying to come up with some NASA type code engineering to find an easier work around.


Very nice addition to the game and another positive strategic decision for Germany to invade Norway.
Thanks Alvaro.

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RE: Norway Surrender - 11/21/2020 10:08:24 AM   
sillyflower


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa



I have been trying to manage to make air units be a convoy raider.


Logically, if they are able to intercept convoys, they should be equally able to intercept fleets. A ship is a ship and giving it guns does not make it invisible.


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Post: I am always fearful that when I put this game down on the table and people see the box-art they will think I am some kind of neo-Nazi

Reply: They already know you're a gamer. What other shame can possibly compare?

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Post #: 18
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