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Air Shock Question... - 11/12/2020 6:01:08 PM   
76mm


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OK, another question: In my scenario, I've set Force 1 Air Shock to 125, and Force 2 Air Shock to 50. According to the manual, fighters at an airbase under attack will not defend it if the shock level is set below 70:

Force 1 Air Shock Level and Force 2 Air Shock Level: As with the Force Shock Level, this is used to model surprise or sudden drops of morale for Air units. It is a direct percentage multiplier to Air unit Strengths. If the Shock Level is less than 70%, Air units will not rise to defend their air bases (interception) when under attack. The default is 100%

And yet when I ran a test with Force 2 Air Shock @ 50, the defending fighters attacked the bombers and inflicted significant losses:





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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/12/2020 6:01:54 PM   
76mm


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Here are the results:




Can anyone tell me what is going on?

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< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/12/2020 6:02:29 PM >

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/13/2020 4:30:37 AM   
sPzAbt653


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I think it says they won't Interdict, but if you attack them with an Airfield Attack they will defend.

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/13/2020 4:50:06 AM   
76mm


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hmmm, you're probably right. I interpreted "will not rise to defend their air bases (interception) when under attack" as not defending their airbase, but I guess "their air bases" could mean air bases other than their own. Still a bit surprised at the losses planes at 50% Air Shock can inflict. I guess I should take it down a bit.

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/13/2020 1:11:11 PM   
sPzAbt653


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quote:

"will not rise to defend their air bases (interception) when under attack"


Last night this made perfect sense, this morning when I read it it is close to nonsensical. So I think it might be proper to add 'Planes will always defend themselves when directly targeted by an Airfield Attack'. What do you think?

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/13/2020 3:21:34 PM   
76mm


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I recommend something like this:

If the Shock Level is less than 70%, Air units will not rise to defend other air bases (interception) if they are attacked, but will still defend their own airbase if it is under attack.

I think the main thing is to stop using "their" when it says that they won't defend, because it is not clear whether that means "their side's" or "their own".

< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/13/2020 3:22:41 PM >

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/13/2020 3:22:34 PM   
Lobster


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I think they are not supposed to defend at all just like it says. It is supposed to model the inability of air detection to detect incoming air attacks as actually happened many times in WW2. Likely a bug if they do intercept air units attacking the airfield they are based at before the attack even takes place.

The combat report shows the fighters intercepted before the attack, does it not? I can see them going up after the fact if any left are able to but before would indicate active defense not reaction to an attack.

A surprise attack would be impossible if this is not a bug.



< Message edited by Lobster -- 11/13/2020 3:24:14 PM >


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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/13/2020 3:25:17 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
I think they are not supposed to defend at all just like it says. It is supposed to model the inability of air detection to detect incoming air attacks...

Yeah, that is what I had thought as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
The combat report shows the fighters intercepted before the attack, does it not?

I don't know how to tell if they intercepted before or after the attack. Let me know and I will run it again and post a screenshot.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 11/13/2020 3:34:00 PM >

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/14/2020 2:17:39 AM   
Lobster


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There's a line buried under the top line of the red box. What does it say?

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"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/14/2020 5:10:09 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
There's a line buried under the top line of the red box. What does it say?

IIRC it says something like "bombers attack airfield".

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/14/2020 12:00:56 PM   
Lobster


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This is from turn 1 of FitE2 v1.06. You can see that Soviet fighters rose to the defense from all over the map. Some as far away as the West Front. Soviet Air Shock was 5.





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_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to 76mm)
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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/14/2020 12:01:45 PM   
Lobster


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Soviet losses:





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_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Lobster)
Post #: 12
RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/14/2020 12:02:33 PM   
Lobster


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Axis losses:





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_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

(in reply to Lobster)
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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/14/2020 12:07:21 PM   
Lobster


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So even though the Soviet side had only a 5 Air Shock they came from far away to intercept.

Now, knowing this bug, I would exploit it to the hilt. I would attack soviet bombers and use my German fighters as Air Superiority only. They would escort the bombers and the airfield attacks would suck in all the Soviet fighters from all over the map and then the escorts would destroy them. Easy pickings and the bombers would be free to attack other airfields later in the turn without worry of any Soviet fighter intervention and it would also decrease the number of airfield attacks the German bombers would have to make.

Some seem to think that if the game lets you do something that would never happen in real life then it must be something the game designer wanted to happen so I guess this is ok.

According to the manual this is clearly a bug. A very very bad bug exploitable and able to ruin a scenario.

BTW, I ran this several times. There were times where five Soviet fighter units were eliminated at the cost of Zero German aircraft.

Excellent bug catch muh man.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 11/14/2020 12:30:38 PM >


_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

"There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Wearing blinders and earplugs everything you do is correct.

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RE: Air Shock Question... - 11/14/2020 2:16:18 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster
Excellent bug catch muh man.

My scenario is fairly small, with small units, so it is pretty easy to catch stuff like this as I run the opening turns over again as part of testing. Most of the things I'm trying to do don't work as I expect, some undoubtedly due to user error.

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