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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> What If? Page: [1]
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What If? - 8/11/2003 7:16:58 AM   
norsemanjs

 

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Most of us who are reading and posting things here on this forum play war games because we want to know....what if. I know a lot of people are more interested in a strictly historical version of what if. I personally like to stretch my imagination with what if. This morning I saw a show on the history channel which really was interesting for us who like ...what if. The show called the "Samurai and the Swastika" discussed numerous interesting what if's.

I will list a few of the good ones I can remember. I would be interested in what what everyone thinks about them and what the potential for inclusion in WITP would be.

MADAGASCAR: Apparently Hitler was pretty adamant that Japan should invade Madagascar which would have really screwed up the supply lines for India, ANZAC and cut off the southern end of the Suez. Apparently the Imperial Navy was willing but the army was not, and refused to become involved in the operations a couple of times. The plan was to invade Ceylon and then Madagascar. Both fairly large operations with a really long supply line. However, Madagascar was not held in great strength by Vichy and certainly would have been easy for Japan to take, holding it would have been much more difficult with South Africa nearby. But the strategic implications would have definetly hurt the allied cause even more troops and supplies which would have to be used to expel the Japanese and early in the war this would have been a huge strain on Britain and the Commonwealth. I know the map falls short of including Madagascar but it is a fun what if to talk and think about. By the way it seems that Japan opted for a eastward thrust toward Midway rather than westward toward Madagascar... what if?

TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER: The Germans transferred technology to Japan in the way of blueprints, tools, proto-types, also some intelligence info. Examples are whole aircraft, jet engines, high HP combustion engines, nuclear material. In the end these were all delivered a bit late. Many however were turned into projects which were nearly complete toward the end of the war. The germans even began building large transport subs which were intended to be used to ship in rare materials like rubber, silk, etc. The Japanese in turn would receive additional material as mentioned above. The war ended before these subs were put into service. Don't really know how this would be incorporated into WITP.

PANAMA CANAL: I've seen this before but the Japanese Navy built several large (biggest subs built until the nuclear age) which carried 3 attack planes (Senna?) which were meant specifically for a strike on one of the locks of the Panama canal. There was a very real potential to damage the locks, if the locks could be hit the lake would drain and it would take months or even years to refill the lake. The mission was begun and aborted due to the landings on Okinawa. The ramifications of loosing the Panama canal would have much complicated shipping movement from the Atlantic to the Pacific. I think it's been discussed before, but with the large amount of valuable resources that the Japanese put into this effort it would be hard to ignore in game terms. Personally I think they would have been better off building more of their fleet attack subs which in resource terms would have likely been 2 or 3 to 1.

INDIAN NATIONAL ARMY: I know this is an old and potentially sore or at least exhausting subject to many. None the less it is a great what if? The potential to create massive disruption in India and potentially large amounts of troops which can supplement the forces of IJA. Also the idea of cutting off China from one of it's supply sources could only help the prospects of IJA units in China.

WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION: Sorry to use something out of today's headlines but the use of biological and nuclear agents was definitely being researched by both Japan and Germany throughout the war. Fortunately for all they were never widely used. But I think the potential for use should exist in WITP. Certainly resources were spent researching these.

I know that many of these will not make it into WITP but perhaps we will be able to try some of them with the editor.

Don't forget it's the smaller what if's that keep us coming back to play UV and in the not too distant future WITP. I just can't help thinking about a few of the bigger what if's....
Post #: 1
Comment... - 8/11/2003 7:41:38 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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While they do have some worthwhile shows, the "History"
Channel also puts a lot of garbage on the air. To comment on
just one of your points:

So what if the Japanese DID land some troops on Madagascar?
The Japanese had bases at Truk and Rabaul right up to the end
of the war straddling American supply lines, and they didn't do
diddly. A few thousand Japanese troops running around the
underdeveloped mass of Madagascar might have been a political
embarressment---but only a continuously supplied air and Naval
presence on the island would have been any danger to Allied
Shipping. And as Madagascar was very undeveloped at the time,
the bases would have to be built first. None of which the Japs
had anything like enough shipping available to support, or escort
vessels to get it across the Indian Ocean. Ceylon would have
been a real b---h to try..., Madagascar is a pipedream.

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 2
- 8/12/2003 2:28:18 AM   
TIMJOT

 

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To be fair, I believe operation Orient was conceived of before US or even USSR entry into the war, which changes things quite a bit. Had Japan been persuaded to grab the French, Dutch and Brit possessions in the summer of 1940 and Germany foregoes Russia then it becomes a lot less far fetched. There was zero chance of the US going to war to defend the colonial possesions of defeated Eurpean powers in the summer of 1940. The Brits taking the full brunt of axis power in the Med and braced for invasion could do little to prevent Japanese expansion into the Indian ocean. Maintianing these gains would have been possible if the US is not in the war.

Operation Orient 1940-41 may have not been a recipe for victory in WWII, I doubt that the axis could have won a war against the USA/USSR, but it might have been a recipe for defeating Britain and it might have given Japan its empire without getting into a war with the US.

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 3
What if ... - 8/12/2003 6:11:27 PM   
Rainerle

 

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how about, the german offensive in Russia is successful and takes the SU out of the war at the end of 1941 ?! Lots Japanese Divisions freed from guarding the border !

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 4
What if ... - 8/13/2003 12:01:08 AM   
Jo van der Pluym


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And What If Japan has Conquer whole China. And the Chinese had accepted this. Then has Japan more then 50 Divisions and more Airpower in 1941 available.

I think that they with this Forces had win World War II about June 1942

_____________________________

Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 5
- 8/13/2003 1:54:14 AM   
Mr.Frag


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From: Purgatory
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Interesting twist really, thats one of the things that we miss in wargames to a certain extent, what if a POLITICAL solution was reached between various countrys that changed who was on what side?

It would be interesting as a feature to be able to edit the starting country's side value to control who's side it was on.

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 6
Starting Alliances - 8/13/2003 2:07:42 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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Such as the Soviet Union starting out on Germany's side? Oh, wait--that actually happened, didn't it....

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 7
Re: What if ... - 8/13/2003 8:06:17 AM   
dwesolick


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From: Colorado
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jo van der Pluym
[B]And What If Japan has Conquer whole China. And the Chinese had accepted this. Then has Japan more then 50 Divisions and more Airpower in 1941 available.

I think that they with this Forces had win World War II about June 1942 [/B][/QUOTE]


Never would have happened, unless the Japanese used those 50 divisions to march on Washington DC...successfully. With the outrage over Pearl Harbor, the USA would have fought until 1950 if necessary and the Japanese (in Churchill's words) would still have been "ground into powder."

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 8
I love it! - 8/13/2003 8:11:45 AM   
dwesolick


Posts: 540
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From: Colorado
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Capt. Harlock
[B]Such as the Soviet Union starting out on Germany's side? Oh, wait--that actually happened, didn't it.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Why, Captain Harlock! It's very politically incorrect to point such things out, especially when it's the truth, and especially when you live in such proximity (relatively) to the Berkeley campus. :)

_____________________________

"The Navy has a moth-eaten tradition that the captain who loses his ship is disgraced. What do they have all those ships for, if not to hurl them at the enemy?" --Douglas MacArthur

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 9
Re: What if ... - 8/13/2003 7:42:39 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jo van der Pluym
[B]And What If Japan has Conquer whole China. And the Chinese had accepted this. Then has Japan more then 50 Divisions and more Airpower in 1941 available.

I think that they with this Forces had win World War II about June 1942 [/B][/QUOTE]

JUST WHAT DO YOU THINK THE JAPANESE HAD BEEN TRYING TO
DO SINCE 1936??? If they could have.., they would have! Even
as a "what if", this is amazingly far-fetched. And to find the forces
to hold down all that additional Chinese Territory would have
eaten up all those divisions and more.

(in reply to norsemanjs)
Post #: 10
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