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Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/22/2020 6:22:40 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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I have noticed that locating and attacking transports at sea is extremely difficult. In a recent game I noticed 2 unescorted Italian land units at sea near the Azores. I made 5 attempts to attack them with 2 subs and 3 CVs, all failed to find them. The next turn I got 4 more CV attempts and 1 sub attempt. Again all 5 failed. I understand why it is difficult to find and attack subs. I further understand why it may be difficult to find and attack surface fleets (though I think it is harder than it should be). But locating and attacking transports should be much easier. Transporting even a single division of 10,000 to 15,000 men would require many transport ships. They are generally (The Queen Mary aside) much slower than naval ships. I know the Atlantic is a large ocean. But it should not be this difficult.

I don't mean to be so critical Alvaro, I just want to see this great game continue to improve.
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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/22/2020 11:58:03 PM   
battlevonwar


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Finding a Transport that goes at snail speed and sinking it should be easier... but maybe we should make that easier for the Naval Specialty for Air or Detection? Making those techs useful and forcing both sides to research them?


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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 4:54:39 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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Not a bad idea. But regardless, 10,000 to 15000 men sailing around in the middle of Atlantic would not have been this difficult to locate even for ships with 1939 technology. Keeping in mind that each turn is 2 weeks. Historically this would have been a suicide mission not a Carnival cruise.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 4:56:29 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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My opponent taunting me with Italian transport ships in the Atlantic. I have made 12 attack attempts over the past 3 turns with barely a whiff of them.




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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 5:05:21 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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The Germans join the taunting. I am pretty sure these are troop transports as most of the German fleet has been sunk or badly damaged. Ironically it was easier to locate the German fleet than these transports.

I have no idea what my opponent's game is here. Invade Canada? Invade the US? Draw the British fleet away from home waters so he can invade the UK? Run me out of oil chasing him (since he will soon control Iraq and Persia this is quite possible). Decoys? Or quite possibly just for the fun of knowing that he can? All I know is that it is very frustrating to not be able to even scratch them.




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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 12:24:31 PM   
MorningDew

 

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If any transports are in the fleets, interception should be almost guaranteed. However, escorts (if any) should take the a larger part of the hits until they have some level of damage (unless attacked by air = then the transports should be the primary target).

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 3:10:08 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

If any transports are in the fleets, interception should be almost guaranteed. However, escorts (if any) should take the a larger part of the hits until they have some level of damage (unless attacked by air = then the transports should be the primary target).


I would agree with that. I know the Italian units are transports because there is no way that the Italian fleets can make it into the Atlantic.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 3:49:02 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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To put things in perspective..... The Atlantic ocean is 41,000,000 square miles.

The top half in which the game is played is ~20,000,000 square miles.

Say we take 80% of it as being not near a coast which leaves 16,000,000 square miles.

Average size of a WW2 convoy was 30 ships.

If we say that force is spread out over putting 4 ship lengths between all of the transports plus room for escorts we are talking about 4 square miles.

Try finding a 4 square mile foot print in the middle of an 18,000,000 square mile ocean.

But not for ****s and giggles lets say the Germans know this convoy is moving on a set path from the USA to England which would be around 1/3rd the size of the top half of the Atlantic Ocean.

That is 4 square miles in a 7,000,000 square mile area.

Now lets say they know the date and time it is passing and form a line that will cover 10% of the vertical area of the top half of the 1/3rd lane in the North Atlantic.

Now that area is 700,000 square miles. We assume no one has cracked anyone's cypher.

It is unbelievably difficult to spot a ship in the middle of the Atlantic. The size of the fleet really doesn't matter due to the spotting range of the curvature of the earth. This is how the UK beat the U-boat war. They made this realization that sending small groups or single ships on their own created a much larger foot print than grouping them together with 8 escorts which could easily cover the convoy.

There is a reason why Milch Cows could operate in the middle of the Atlantic. Why ships could be refueled. Why it took 1/2 the Royal naval to hunt down 2 ships they had shadowed for 50% of it's journey and why only a lucky torpedo hit even made it possible for the Bismarck to get sunk.

Other games might make it easy to spot something unrealistically in the middle of the Atlantic, WarPlan doesn't. You want to sink the Bismarck you better put some serious numbers out at sea.

Every single naval battle as fought near a coast except the Bismarck final sinking.

Even 95% of Italian convoys successfully made it to Tripoli.

Reference....
Black May - Gannon

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 6:40:32 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

The Germans join the taunting. I am pretty sure these are troop transports as most of the German fleet has been sunk or badly damaged. Ironically it was easier to locate the German fleet than these transports.

I have no idea what my opponent's game is here. Invade Canada? Invade the US? Draw the British fleet away from home waters so he can invade the UK? Run me out of oil chasing him (since he will soon control Iraq and Persia this is quite possible). Decoys? Or quite possibly just for the fun of knowing that he can? All I know is that it is very frustrating to not be able to even scratch them.






Oops, I was wrong, turns out these 2 were the Bismark and a destroyer group.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 6:41:35 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

My opponent taunting me with Italian transport ships in the Atlantic. I have made 12 attack attempts over the past 3 turns with barely a whiff of them.





These 2 landed in Morocco, which is where I initially thought they were heading.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 7:38:02 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

To put things in perspective..... The Atlantic ocean is 41,000,000 square miles.

The top half in which the game is played is ~20,000,000 square miles.

Say we take 80% of it as being not near a coast which leaves 16,000,000 square miles.

Average size of a WW2 convoy was 30 ships.

If we say that force is spread out over putting 4 ship lengths between all of the transports plus room for escorts we are talking about 4 square miles.

Try finding a 4 square mile foot print in the middle of an 18,000,000 square mile ocean.

But not for ****s and giggles lets say the Germans know this convoy is moving on a set path from the USA to England which would be around 1/3rd the size of the top half of the Atlantic Ocean.

That is 4 square miles in a 7,000,000 square mile area.

Now lets say they know the date and time it is passing and form a line that will cover 10% of the vertical area of the top half of the 1/3rd lane in the North Atlantic.

Now that area is 700,000 square miles. We assume no one has cracked anyone's cypher.

It is unbelievably difficult to spot a ship in the middle of the Atlantic. The size of the fleet really doesn't matter due to the spotting range of the curvature of the earth. This is how the UK beat the U-boat war. They made this realization that sending small groups or single ships on their own created a much larger foot print than grouping them together with 8 escorts which could easily cover the convoy.

There is a reason why Milch Cows could operate in the middle of the Atlantic. Why ships could be refueled. Why it took 1/2 the Royal naval to hunt down 2 ships they had shadowed for 50% of it's journey and why only a lucky torpedo hit even made it possible for the Bismarck to get sunk.

Other games might make it easy to spot something unrealistically in the middle of the Atlantic, WarPlan doesn't. You want to sink the Bismarck you better put some serious numbers out at sea.

Every single naval battle as fought near a coast except the Bismarck final sinking.

Even 95% of Italian convoys successfully made it to Tripoli.

Reference....
Black May - Gannon


Sorry Alvaro, but I have to disagree. For one thing the vast majority of naval battles in WWII were not fought near the coast, they were in fact fought in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. I am talking here about the Battle of the Atlantic, where U-Boats (although generally few in number) were often able to locate convoys. They did this largely without the benefit of any air reconnaissance at all. But it wasn't just U-Boats, in November 1940 the Admiral Scheer by itself located Convoy HX84 (38 ships) in the middle of the Atlantic and sank several ships. Then in February 1941 the Scharnost and the Gneisau intercepted convoy HX106. Luckily for the Allies this convoy was escorted by the Ramilles, so the German ships beat a retreat. Of course we also have the Graf Spee which in the course of about 2 1/2 months located and sank several Allied merchant ships. The British and French started hunting her in October with what in the game would I think be the equivalent of 2 CVs, 1 BB and 3 Cruiser squadrons (so not exactly the whole RN). It took them what would be the equivalent of 5 game turns to locate and attack her. But this was a single very fast ship. Finding a fleet of slow transports should be much easier.

There was a good reason why the Germans were very cautious about sending their capital ships into the Atlantic, and that reason is they knew that there was a decent chance that they would be spotted and sunk. Now I am not saying it should be easy to locate ships and transports in the Middle of the Atlantic. In fact I agree with you that it should be difficult. But, with respect, I think it is currently more difficult than it historically was. And I think it should be more difficult to locate and attack capital ships then it should be to locate and attack transports. As I said I made 12 attempts to attack those Italian transport over 3 turns. 6 of those attempts were made with CVs. I think I spotted them twice. So I don't know exactly what my odds of spotting them were, but I got think it was less that 10% and perhaps less than 5%. That or I just got very, very unlucky. Personally I think the odds of locating and attacking a single capital ship in the middle of the Atlantic should be about 5% to 10% with a further 10% chance of spotting it. These odds should be increased by 10% for each successful spotting and CV's should receive a +5% chance. The odds should be reduced for bad weather. But for transports and fleets of several units the initial odds odds should be increased by 10% so that the chance is 15% to 20%.

Just my 2 cents.

< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 10/23/2020 9:57:46 PM >

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 8:36:02 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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I think that fleets that include transports (land and air combat units embarked) shouldn't be able to move in "Raider" mode. Also, think they as a group should be more vulnerable to attacks. Transports are slow even though in the game they move just as far as fleet ships. That creates a problem for the surface fleets traveling with them. They, by the fact they are grouped together, are acting as defenders of the transports.

I also noticed in combat against these transports they take few loses. They should be much more vulnerable, especially when traveling alone. A single surface ship should be able to wipe the sea of them. Hopefully the game assumes some escort combat ships make up the transport fleet.

As to their ability to find the ships once they made contact, they had radar. UK Ships had surface Warning and Gun Control radar as early as 1938. It was cable of 30 to 50 mile range.

Germany in particular shouldn't be able to wander around the US and Canadian coast with a transport chased by a half dozen surface groups and usually not take any damage.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/23/2020 10:11:28 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kennonlightfoot

Germany in particular shouldn't be able to wander around the US and Canadian coast with a transport chased by a half dozen surface groups and usually not take any damage.


Just to be clear, in my particular case as it turned out the German ships were the Bismarck and a destroyer group not transports; and they were south of Iceland not off the US or Canadian coast. But they certainly could have been transports and they certainly could have been off the coast of Canada or the US.

I begin to think that a clever German plan might be to send out swarms of weakened German divisions (the security corps they start with broken down into divisions for example) into the Atlantic along with their surface raiders. The Allies won't know which are which and while they are hopefully trying (and failing) to sink the transports the raiders can go about their business.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 12:27:44 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Just my 2 cents.



Read the book. You will like it. It explains things better than I do.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 4:59:14 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Just my 2 cents.



Read the book. You will like it. It explains things better than I do.


The thing is Alvaro I don't think we really disagree that much. We both agree that the chance of locating and attacking ships in the middle of the Atlantic should be difficult. Where we disagree is on how difficult. But the fact is that both sides routinely located and attacked enemy ships in the middle of the Atlantic and in the middle of the Pacific. You cannot deny that. I gave several examples, but I can provide dozens more if you want.

Are you at least willing to say:
1. What the odds are of locating a single ship not close to land in clear weather?
2. Are the odds of locating a transport fleet greater than the odds of locating a single ship?
3. Does weather effect the odds?
4. Do CVs stand a better chance of locating?
5. How does spotting affect subsequent attempts? Are spottings cumulative?

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 5:33:34 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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Ok so I ran a test (if you haven't guessed by now I love running tests). I loaded up a hotseat game of the 39 scenario. On my first two turns I moved the German division in the Port (Bremerhaven?) into the middle of the Atlantic. The entire British Home Fleet along with the French sub gave chase. Over the next 3 turns I made a total of 51 attempted attacks on the transport (since the transport didn't move I could make 2 attempts per turn for each of my fleets. Of course you are limited to making 2 CV attacks, 3 sub attacks and 6 surface ship attacks per turn. 4 of the 51 attempts were successful attacks. I was surprised not only that only 8% of my attacks located the transport but also by the fact that it took 4 successful attacks to score the 10 hits necessary to sink it.

It is bad enough that because all fleets can move 48 hexes per turn it is impossible to prevent the Germans from moving into the middle of the Atlantic. But when they get there it takes the entire Home Fleet 6 weeks to sink an unescorted division. Of course, it would have taken even longer to sink a full corps.

I will now shut up about this.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 6:46:28 AM   
malkarma

 

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In the new betas starting the 8U5 or 8U6 (don´t rmember wich one), transports suffer double or triple damage from attacks.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 11:07:06 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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I know they suffer triple damage from air attacks, will they also suffer triple damage from naval attacks? If so then it would have taken fewer attempts to sink a 10 strength transport.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 11:34:00 AM   
malkarma

 

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Not sure now about that, but in my last game against the AI I think that I was getting extra damage against transports with my fleets. Anyways, unless you upgrade the game to those Betas, you will not see those changes implemented. In 1.00.8.1 tansports are treated like any other ship regarding hits received.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 2:32:43 PM   
boldairade

 

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in a recent MP game, i was able to cut off AGN with an attack to Konigsberg.

the german player captured Riga though, and even though i had 5 units of the red airforce, all the the Red surface navy and the soviet sub around the port, he seemlessly evaced 4 units, maybe 5, before i could recapture the port!

the only casualty was my sub, which i eventually set on intercept hoping to catch a transport. it got sunk!

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 2:55:38 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Yes it is triple damage now on land/air being transported.

So I have been thinking about this from a game play perspective.

A simply thing is just to bump up transport fleet visibility. Something like +15% which would make it incredibly dangerous to sail a long distance without being caught.

Another additive could also be that transport fleets always get the hit with the bonus spotting chance increasing the next fleet to find it.

When you go to search for a fleet it isn't only about where it is in the vast ocean and what planes spots it.
It's speed and ability to lose pursuers, change course, and expand it's move range also come into play.

So for example the Bismarck cruises at 19 knots. A liberty ship travels at 11 knots. So in a span of night time 12 hours the Bismarck can be in an area 3x as large as a liberty ship can trying to avoid being detected. During one of the segments it was being chased it successfully evaded it's shadows and the RN lost contact with it.

I think this minor adjustment will make trying to cheeze invade America much more difficult.

< Message edited by AlvaroSousa -- 10/24/2020 3:24:55 PM >


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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 3:01:06 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Harrybanana

Are you at least willing to say:
1. What the odds are of locating a single ship not close to land in clear weather?
2. Are the odds of locating a transport fleet greater than the odds of locating a single ship?
3. Does weather effect the odds?
4. Do CVs stand a better chance of locating?
5. How does spotting affect subsequent attempts? Are spottings cumulative?


1. 5% base in raider mode + all the modifiers usually ends up to being ~8%
2. The same but I posted a proposal above this one which would make the base 10%
3. Yes it affects the modifiers
4. Yes for every 3 air points adds +1% So in a 1 recon area with a base of 5% in raider mode it is not 8%
5. Each attempt has a 40% chance to increase the ID value of the fleet with is added to the recon level. Off the top of my head I forgot the amount.


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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 3:30:15 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Thinking more about the +15% modifier I like it because it now increases the importance of escorting transport fleets and puts more pressure on the Allies to build more patrol groups.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 4:01:26 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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This solution seems perfect!

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 4:19:38 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Thank you Alvaro. I think this would be a perfect solution.

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RE: Attacking Transports at Sea - 10/24/2020 4:47:38 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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To keep is simple I will count the transport fleet 2 recon levels higher which is would show a better result and make it easier to code.

At low levels it will be an +11% chance which is triple the chance
At high levels it will be a +20% chance with lowers the chance of not finding triple

Also aligns with WiF search results nicely.
Forces players to escort.

Allows Uboats to intercept.

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