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I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 9:10:52 AM   
ncc1701e


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I am the Red army and I can't stop the Germans.

What is best to defend?

One line of armies with 36 steps
Two lines of armies with 18 steps

Thanks for your advice.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 9:32:32 AM   
ncc1701e


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Just to add this is summer 1942 on the Eastern front.

Second question:
Is it better to use Defend mode or to use Hold mode?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 12:22:27 PM   
malkarma

 

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If you are talking about our game, a 18 steps line can be crushed like paper...you will have a lot of units with 4-5 combat value facing panzers with 18-22 value. Be sure that if I found that I wil go all-in in the whole front. The only place where you can use the 18 steps armies is in swamp hexes due to the 1.7 defence multiplier, maybe in some mountains behind a river line.
Hold mode can work in cities or hexes with a big defence multiplier. But in the whole front it doesn´t asure that you will avoid a retreat result in exchange of more losses. That can lead you to a really big drop in the manpower stock after several turns of pounding. If the german army have been able to maintain his manpower over 80% it will be ready to bear the exchange of losses.
Obviously this is only my personal perception, and can be a bit biased. Let's wait to read more comments on the matter.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 2:17:54 PM   
PL1

 

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I have a game with Nirosi at the moment as the Allies and I used defend mode from the start thinking that retreat would be better than holding and dying. It seems to have worked. From the start, I managed to have 2 lines with space to retreat behind them in the northern part (Leningrad-Moscow) and retreating to recreate the line between each turn. Even with an early Barb, in summer 42 right now, and with an aggressive Strat campaign (8 strat bombers, 4 uk, 4 US) and a hard fight in Africa, the german offensive slowed.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 3:08:42 PM   
MagicMissile


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I dont think you can have 18 str armies in the frontline they will get ripped apart. Only maybe in marsh/behind river/quiet areas. You want to have a line of 36 pts armies and wherever there are enemy arm/mech units you want a second line preferably mech of your own for the potential counterattack.

I have always thought that the Soviets are having a hard time in the game. Especially against early invasions (may 41 even earlier) and if the Axis commits a large enough army. Not only do you have to survive 41 but you have to survive with a decent strength so you will not be too weak when summer 42 starts. You probably want an army of at least 2300 when summer 42 starts and if it falls under 2000 the army is getting too weak at least I feel that way. Also of course depends on the German strength.

I dont use hold much in the east and especially not in 42. Possibly in the north depending on the frontline and if you have kept Leningrad or not. One has to realise that whatever objective the Germans want in 42 they can take it. Your army is not strong enough to take a stand. So if you kept Moscow in 41 if the Germans want it they will get it in 42 (my AAR with Battlevonwar was a good example of that I tried to stand and fight didnt really work ). One has to give up space occasionally so German infantry cant do all out attack and one have to realise that a Gorky-Stalingrad line is absolutely likely. I think it is better to preserve the army than hold on to land. Time is supposed to be on Soviet and allied time.

If the Germans are like all in in the east then one have to try to be active with the western allies. Even an 42 invasion of France as diversion should not be discounted.

/MM

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 3:39:40 PM   
ncc1701e


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Having played several games now, losing Leningrad and Moscow leads to a serious manpower issue to build new armies.
Don't you have this problem with a Gorky-Stalingrad line?

Right now, my army is under 2000 (1923 exactly) in May 1942. This is game over I think. I have build too much air units and not enough land units. I was willing to save all the manpower before the invasion without buying rifle corps only. Looks like I was wrong once again.

EDIT: And basically, taking several losses to contain the Germans I can't reinforce my armies and build new armies at the same time. I just don't have enough production for this. Only 280 PP each turn even with USA and UK sending the maximum of production.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 10/18/2020 4:04:20 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 3:41:55 PM   
ncc1701e


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But, thanks for the tip. Better to defend with 36 steps army and to use Defend mode (in general with few exceptions).

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 10/18/2020 3:42:24 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 6:45:59 PM   
MagicMissile


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Manpower is a big problem absolutely but the other option is worse I think. Mm 1923 in May yes that might be a long summer .

One also have to fear the German Pac-Man, as you say the Soviets can at the most build 1 army per turn so if the Germans can shatter more than that the Soviets can run out of units and there will be a snowball effect with a weaker front leading to even more losses.

Dont take my word as any kind of truth but I feel the Soviets can ill afford to buy any airunits before the autumn of 42 only if you survive 42 in some kind of decent shape can you think of building air units. I am actually thinking of maybe disbanding a couple of air units to build some more land units before the war starts.

/MM

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 7:42:18 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagicMissile
Dont take my word as any kind of truth but I feel the Soviets can ill afford to buy any airunits before the autumn of 42 only if you survive 42 in some kind of decent shape can you think of building air units. I am actually thinking of maybe disbanding a couple of air units to build some more land units before the war starts.

/MM


Thanks for your help. I am just wondering one thing. Do you save some PPs before the war starts to buy plenty of armies (even if you are losing some manpower)? Or, are you buying rifle corps until the last minute to save manpower? There is a balance there that I have yet to understand.

Cheers

P.S: Agree with you the air units building pre-war was a mistake.


< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 10/18/2020 7:43:08 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
Post #: 9
RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 8:15:00 PM   
MagicMissile


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No problem not sure if it is good advise maybe I am like Wormtongue in Lord of the Rings .

I used before the corps got a bit buffed to save up a lot of PP and build like 14-16 armies on the first turn of Barbarossa. It worked but my manpower went down to like high 60s low 70s and never really recovered. I managed anyway because the Barbarossa I faced in some games wasnt so all in and sometimes started a bit late. But I think it doesnt work against a strong Barbarossa starting in May.

So now I build corps until army size in the 1900-2100 range. I save some production and build some armies. My two last games on the first turn of the invasion I disbanded the bad mech corps the ones that start with 2 and 3 attack and together with what I saved I could build like 10 armies and my manpower ended up in the mid 80s. That is a compromise that might be ok. Unfortunately now I want to keep the 3-5s against the Finns as more units are needed in the north to guard the Murmansk railroad so now I might not be able to disband them so then maybe only like 7-8 armies can be built but I am not sure if that will be enough. Those one time reinforcements are the ones that usually makes the situation more or less stable and are very important I think.

/MM


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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/18/2020 8:35:19 PM   
ncc1701e


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Thanks a lot

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to MagicMissile)
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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 12:14:23 AM   
michaelCLARADY

 

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Show a screen shot of your current position in the East. That should bring forth some useful ideas. Also what are your Brits doing? There are many ways they can annoy and distract from the German drive to the east.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 2:54:50 AM   
battlevonwar


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36 Step Armies are required at a certain point. You get a ton in '41 by event and can start building them. The Small Armies are disposable and garrisons. They are also useful as Airfield Guards. A lot of the low XP starting units can be disbanded and you can build a line of Armor/Mech in the ole days. Now I see front line Weak Units to slow down the Axis and less Large Army/Armor in the rear.

You must have front line units against the Axis. As MM mentioned don't try to defend stuff in '41-'42 if the Axis are stronger than you, wait till the Allies chime in with an invasion and draw of a 1/3rd of the Axis. Like Spain, Like Italy ... that will weaken the Axis. Keep your Elite Armor and mass in for counter-attacks. The Axis are vulnerable as '43 hits. If you bled them... On the offense they're going to lose more Manpower, effectiveness, armor, air that is eventually going to hurt. They cannot take enough of your production to really make that matter unless you give up everything. Use the Rivers, Rough Terrain, Marshes, Cities, and create defense lines. Retreat if you must to a point and take up a new line with entrenchment. The bonuses really hurt the Germans.

Game is likely over for you if the Russians are wiped out, as MM pointed out he chose not to fight me in '42 and therefore he won in '43. If he fought me in '42 it probably would of cost him the game. I would of destroyed his front-line armor and he would of never rebuilt it all... Or I would of won by points in '45 cause I could of held.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I am the Red army and I can't stop the Germans.

What is best to defend?

One line of armies with 36 steps
Two lines of armies with 18 steps

Thanks for your advice.


(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 13
RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 6:03:38 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelCLARADY

Show a screen shot of your current position in the East. That should bring forth some useful ideas. Also what are your Brits doing? There are many ways they can annoy and distract from the German drive to the east.


UK is attacking in North Africa around El Alamein. Plus trying to catch subs.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 10/19/2020 6:04:05 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to michaelCLARADY)
Post #: 14
RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 6:05:24 PM   
ncc1701e


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My forces.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 15
RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 6:05:49 PM   
ncc1701e


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Casualties.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 16
RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 6:08:03 PM   
ncc1701e


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The front (northern part).




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 17
RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 6:08:49 PM   
ncc1701e


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The front (southern part).




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 18
RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/19/2020 11:39:10 PM   
michaelCLARADY

 

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Your East Front looks not to bad except you have a huge vulnerability immediately south of Voronezh- a 5- 6 hex front which could be completely shattered.

Your US Army should be 4X what you have by this time. Could your Brits start a front in France? Distract the Germans from Russia. Perhaps use those overbuilt US/UK air forces to blitz the German synthetic oil plants in western Germany.

Just the opinions of a gent many here can say- 'I beat him like a Missouri mule'. Note- does not imply that folks from Missouri are cruel to animals.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/20/2020 8:33:20 PM   
canuckgamer

 

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Interesting thread as I am playing my first PBEM game and I am the Allies. Hoping to get some tips for the Russians and was wondering if the tank destroyer specialty is useful against the German tanks, or maybe it's not possible to "produce" that many units with that specialty? As it is only the winter of 1939 in our game specialties are not yet possible. I'm also wondering if a unit can have more than one specialty such as elite and tank destroyer?

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/20/2020 9:00:20 PM   
MagicMissile


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I havent done any tests to check how much difference the tank destroyer speciality actually do. Nor do I really know how good it is compared to other specialities. But I think the unit one fears most is the German arm corps so anything that can hurt them seems good to me so I have used tank destroyer quite a lot since it got buffed.

A unit can only have one speciality.

/MM

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/20/2020 10:47:16 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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For me I think the Russians should generally take the elite specialization. The reason is that they generally have such crappy experience. So if you have an armour unit with 40% experience and increase its experience with the elite specialization to 50%, you have effectively increased all of it stats (including guns) by 25%. If you use the anti-tank specialization you will effectively increase its number of guns by 1.2 (3 X 40%). I am not sure if I have this right, but it is my understanding.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 12:15:26 AM   
battlevonwar


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Point of view. Your South is going to collapse... Your Center is Threatened and so is the Caucasus you don't have experienced Armies to defend your front line. You need more. You can survive if you invade France/Italy or Spain now maybe draw off forces. You don't have to lose your units, back em off and give real estate. The Oil in the Caucasus isn't the end of the world. Stalingrad isn't worth that much. North and Center could hold awhile but South will have issues... You need more Units there(strong ones) You should have an entrenched line of 36 Strengths around Stalingrad with backup Armor for counterattacks. There is some bad real-estate there for fighting with Rivers. Though you don't look like you got that now so things look bad for you if there is healthy German Units there.

< Message edited by battlevonwar -- 10/21/2020 12:20:41 AM >

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 2:10:08 AM   
ncc1701e


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Yes this game is done, the snowball effect has already started. I have no more enough land units. I have build too much air units pre-war.
I should have build land units... Lessons learned.

It looks like to me the Germans have not suffered during summer and winter 1941.
They are fresh for a 1942 summer campaign on the whole front.

I am fighting in North Africa with UK and in the Atlantic. But, I am not in position to perform an invasion of Italy or anything else to distract the Germans.
And with the changes going into Beta 9U7, the Allies should not be in position to perform early Europe invasions now.

Germans must be strong in summer, I have no problem with this. The thing is I do not see the Russians strong in winter to fight.

Right now, even a Russian local counter attack on an exposed Pz corps reduces Red army effectiveness to the point that the front line is exploded the next turn.
In fact, the solution is not to fight at all, just withdraw. So, the Red army gains few experience in summer 1941 to counter a strong 1942 summer offensive.
I do not even speak of winter 1941 to gain experience since all attacks are doomed by the bad odds even for winterized countries.

I will continue to fight but I am quite pessimistic

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to battlevonwar)
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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 6:13:06 AM   
battlevonwar


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ncc1701e, I do see your broken back. You are missing about 10 units to defend Stalingrad, minimally, with probably 4-6 weak pinning garrisons. You need 3-4 Armor 6 Corps... When you put so much into the Air as you did I think you bled your Production as you said. It's unfortunate cause you would of been in a good position with that many units to hold indefinitely. Even Moscow could use a couple of Armor around it's flanks to protect it in reserve.

Allies are definitely favored but they do need the time. Axis are in a frenzy so you really don't need to apply pressure in '41 unless the opportunity presents itself. Also in '42 you really needed those 'key units' so I would play on; learn everything you can about your opponents habits and tactics. So when you face him again you will know more of what he will do next time.

Russian Air Force is possible, just building any more of it I don't think is wise.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 8:59:35 AM   
MagicMissile


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It looks like a very scrappy and fun game. Maybe make an AAR out of it .

You might have moved on by several turns by now so this might be a bit late. As others noted it looks like you have built/repaired like 470 air factors that I think is way too much.

The good thing is that the Germans dont look all that strong either and the Panzerball between Voronezh and Stalingrad looks a bit tired already and they operate from what I can see without much supporting infantry.

Bad thing is that the same front Voronezh-Stalingrad looks very weak and 7 more turns of clear weatehr. I would run at least in the south possibly even around Moscow and at least one hex per turn. Try to shift down some units from north to south. The units facing the Finns I feel are a bit too good for that job and should be moved elsewhere and replaced by 4-5 strong armies.

And a question how did the British lose so much ground and air?

You will not be all out conquered at least not in 42 so depending a bit what goes on elsewhere I still think there might be a bit of hope, keep fighting

/MM

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 9:04:47 AM   
MagicMissile


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Yes I have always mostly been a fan of the elite speciality since everything else is a bit situational. But when I see tank destroyer on the other sides armoured units I feel I want the same so suddenly I started to use mostly tankdestroyer.
I have also learned to appreciate heavy artillery and sometimes the retreat speciality but I barely know how much difference that makes.

Thanks for doing the math .

/MM

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 2:27:10 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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My last game with Hadros he pushed me past Moscow and took Leningrad. I won on the last turn of the game as the Allies. Of course he didn't go after my convoys and ran out of manpower. Between all our games I figured out there is a balance of how hard and how long to push as the Axis before going on the defensive. Which is what I wanted to accomplish in the game.

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 4:48:32 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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What is the general feeling on what to do with the Russian Rifle Corps?

They are handy for absorbing the initial German attacks in 41 but they also lock up a whole lot of Production Points that could be used for Army's.
Plus they will eat up more production each time the Assault Advancement increases.
The Anti Tank advancement would give the Russian's better defensive units but most of their initial units and those preloaded in the build are Assault units.

Add to their really lousy experience levels that probably will never increase enough to make them anything but road bumps for tanks:
Should they be broken up to get the PP back?
Should any advancement points be put into Anti Tank?
Can you use the PP points fast enough to build replacements in time to stop the German?
Since those replacements will be 35% experience, wouldn't it be better to wait for 40% Experience units being available?

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RE: I am losing on Eastern front as usual - 10/21/2020 8:20:28 PM   
ncc1701e


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I am not the best to advice anything but:
1. Shutdown any reinforcement/upgrade on the Russian rifle corps.
2. Yes armies are coming with Assault instead of Anti-Tank. That is why you must researched both advancements. Otherwise, I only buy Anti-Tank armies.
3. I am disbanding few rifle corps once the front is stabilized beginning of winter 1941. I can then reinvest in Anti-Tank armies.

Can you use the PP points fast enough to build replacements in time to stop the German?
-> This is my main problem...

Since those replacements will be 35% experience, wouldn't it be better to wait for 40% Experience units being available?
-> I will say no. Once you are losing steps, the steps are replaced by the 40% experience. So, the experience of your units is growing.


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to kennonlightfoot)
Post #: 30
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