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conversions? how many? - 10/13/2020 11:10:52 AM   
LGKMAS

 

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Playing Scenario 6 Dec 8 as allied against the AI.
I am now starting to get a fair few ships and cargo TFs are no longer the problem they were. Looking at the various ships, a number are able to be converted to AG, AKE etc. I have converted a number of AKL to now carry troops as well as cargo. I have a growing number of AKs and others being converted to AGs AKEs etc.
But how many AG/AD/AVP/AKE etc should I really need? Am I being too adventurous in converting all that I can or should I just aim at say 30 AGs etc and keep the other possible conversions as straight cargo ships?
I don't want to find I have 100 AGs and 150 AVPs sitting in ports or off islands that I really don't need when I really need cargo ships.
I know this is like asking how long is a piece of string. Also how you approach the game and your strategy will obviously affect the answer. But can you really have too many AGs etc? What is the most wanted conversion?
Post #: 1
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/13/2020 4:48:25 PM   
RangerJoe


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AGs can also carry cargo, some of them even extend their range for the same amount of fuel. The AGs can carry resources as well but they need a cargo ship in the convoy first as well. The AGs can also replenish and help repair the escort vessels.

Make every AE that you can, you need them all.

The AKEs will support the smaller BB guns such as the 14" so you will need plenty if you actually plan on bombarding enemy bases.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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(in reply to LGKMAS)
Post #: 2
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/13/2020 6:00:02 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LGKMAS

Playing Scenario 6 Dec 8 as allied against the AI.
I am now starting to get a fair few ships and cargo TFs are no longer the problem they were. Looking at the various ships, a number are able to be converted to AG, AKE etc. I have converted a number of AKL to now carry troops as well as cargo. I have a growing number of AKs and others being converted to AGs AKEs etc.
But how many AG/AD/AVP/AKE etc should I really need? Am I being too adventurous in converting all that I can or should I just aim at say 30 AGs etc and keep the other possible conversions as straight cargo ships?
I don't want to find I have 100 AGs and 150 AVPs sitting in ports or off islands that I really don't need when I really need cargo ships.
I know this is like asking how long is a piece of string. Also how you approach the game and your strategy will obviously affect the answer. But can you really have too many AGs etc? What is the most wanted conversion?

Your need will depend on how you proceed with the game. Support ships are meant to be used forward, so your warships and patrol aircraft do not have to go back to major bases to repair minor damage or replenish ammo and fuel. If you push forward on several fronts, you will likely need more support ships at more islands than if you push in one main direction. Risking them and getting them sunk will also increase your needs ...

You need a lot of AGs because IJ subs can be everywhere and your ASW will use a lot of depth charges without necessarily getting results. But IMO, you only need to convert the smallest xAKs to AG - converting larger, longer ranged xAKs ties up too much cargo hauling capacity when the AG sits in port waiting for small escorts to call in.

You don't need a lot of AKEs early on because your old BBs will be under repair or lack the AA upgrades and air cover to operate far forward. Later on when you can safely do bombardments, you need about one AKE per two BBs in a bombardment TF. I convert all the 5250 capacity xAKs to AKE of 4200 capacity because they can reload all Allied BBs except the Iowas. If you do not convert them early and allow them to take an AA upgrade, they lose the ability to convert to AKE.

A couple of the Dutch CMs convert to an AGP (PT boat support) and especially an AR (available in December 1942 or Jan. 1943 after an initial upgrade). ARs are especially precious - find and save that little ship! You don't get a lot of AGPs early on, so saving the other one is useful too.

Don't worry about creating ADs - the US gets quite a few and AKEs can also re-provision DDs. The ADs do help with minor repairs for DDs, but so do ARs.


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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/13/2020 6:07:01 PM   
Nomad

 

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I eventually ( by about March 1943 ) convert all xAKs to AKEs that I can. You never know how many you will lose and as stated above once they do their 6/43 upgrade they cannot convert to AKE anymore.
you need to convert all of the C2 Cargo ships to AEs before March 1943 or they also lose the capability to do so. I find AG useful, but not as useful as AKEs are. As Allies you get so many xAKs
that you can afford to convert a lot of them to tenders. Note that I do not make a lot of AKEs early, some to help rearm at small bases in the South Pacific, and then a couple per month until
March 1943 when I start converting all of them.

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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/13/2020 6:29:59 PM   
RangerJoe


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You can also "instant load" the support vessels without them being at a pier. That means that at San Francisco, they can completely load supplies without being docked at a pier. You don't waste time loading them and then waiting for other ships to load, they can immediately join a convoy and be on their way.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 5
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/13/2020 6:34:50 PM   
RADM.Yamaguchi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You can also "instant load" the support vessels without them being at a pier. That means that at San Francisco, they can completely load supplies without being docked at a pier. You don't waste time loading them and then waiting for other ships to load, they can immediately join a convoy and be on their way.

Joe is right there. That can be a really big difference when you're in a hurry. One of the reasons that i covert all my Akasi to AKE, all my Ehime to AD and all my Murato to AG. I'm sure that most consider that extreme - but i am.

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Post #: 6
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/13/2020 11:14:23 PM   
LGKMAS

 

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Thanks all.
I now need to sit down and decide on what support I need where and when. I already have been putting together support TFs of an AKE, AS and AG for my fwd sub basing. And once there I do disband them.

I am not getting too much trouble from IJN subs. The main action seems to be Coral Sea based. I seem to spot them often enough but they don't seem to do any attacking. Most of my ship losses are either due to surface action, especially in the first few months or now from air attacks. I don't know why IJN subs are not being more forceful. Not that I am complaining. And I am now getting to the stage where I have, not exactly a surplus of DD but rather, I am not frantically trying to find a spare DD. So now I may actually manage to get some Hunter-killer groups that may need depth charges more often, hence obviously a growing need for AGs.

Looking at the long sailing times from the West Coast to anywhere, I need to really think ahead but isn't what this game is all about?

(in reply to RADM.Yamaguchi)
Post #: 7
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/14/2020 1:24:12 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

I don't know why IJN subs are not being more forceful.


Its the AI.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to LGKMAS)
Post #: 8
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/14/2020 11:48:33 AM   
LGKMAS

 

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I always wonder how aggressive the AI is. I know it should have various avenues of attack and then defence but given how many subs the IJN had, I am a bit puzzled at how ineffective they seem to be in this script. The I screen shows I have possibly sunk about 6 subs over a period from Pearl harbor to October 1942. In other words, bugger all!
Okay, if we go by the IJN sub doctrine, they should be seeking out allied warships rather than merchant ships, but even so, I have had allied warships in the front line and not attracted IJN sub attacks.
I am grateful that the AI script follows the IJN OTL doctrine but having been warned by many and various other players abut the need for ASW TFs, I have not really seen the need for them. Unless my own unguided efforts have been sufficient to keep the IJN subs down and to force them to abort attacks that I don't obviously know about. So maybe the advice I have received and acted upon from others has meant that IJN sub attacks are being thwarted without me knowing about it.
I suppose I should be thankful for small mercies and I really am.
I have read a number of books about the failure of the IJN sub doctrine and how their focus on the enemy battle line was totally myopic and ignored the lessons of the Atlantic war. The often offered statement that the Bushido spirit frowned on attacking civilian shipping when the chance of attacking enemy warships could occur is a repetitive theme in all these studies. Maybe this is what the AI is trying to replicate.

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 9
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/14/2020 1:51:08 PM   
mind_messing

 

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Some thoughts from me:

- As the Allies you really shouldn't lack for general purpose cargo ships (xAK's), and the real bottleneck for a properly organised Allied logistic network is port size (and cargo unloading) more than actual carry capacity.

- Tenders are exceptionally useful to both sides, but especially to the Allies thanks to the larger numbers of AO/TK that can be used to support operations.

- AG's as a support ship feel the least useful to the Allies, in my experience.

- Priority conversions in terms of support ships are AE/AKE, AV, AD, AS. AKV's have a very important niche role in some long distance amphibious invasions.

- Mid/late war Allied naval forces can really leverage support ships to do very impressive things with very unimpressive bases. APD's can carry a small unit to flip a remote dot base. AV's can enable long-range floatplane search from that base, while a collection of AD, AKE and AS ships can enable submarine and surface operations from the base, all supported by an AO/TK force. Throw in a CVE or two for CAP and you can create a very effective blister out of an otherwise unimportant base.

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Post #: 10
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/14/2020 2:11:00 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LGKMAS

Thanks all.
I now need to sit down and decide on what support I need where and when. I already have been putting together support TFs of an AKE, AS and AG for my fwd sub basing. And once there I do disband them.

I am not getting too much trouble from IJN subs. The main action seems to be Coral Sea based. I seem to spot them often enough but they don't seem to do any attacking. Most of my ship losses are either due to surface action, especially in the first few months or now from air attacks. I don't know why IJN subs are not being more forceful. Not that I am complaining. And I am now getting to the stage where I have, not exactly a surplus of DD but rather, I am not frantically trying to find a spare DD. So now I may actually manage to get some Hunter-killer groups that may need depth charges more often, hence obviously a growing need for AGs.

Looking at the long sailing times from the West Coast to anywhere, I need to really think ahead but isn't what this game is all about?


An AG cannot rearm a DD.

Alfred

(in reply to LGKMAS)
Post #: 11
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/14/2020 2:13:54 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LGKMAS

I always wonder how aggressive the AI is. I know it should have various avenues of attack and then defence but given how many subs the IJN had, I am a bit puzzled at how ineffective they seem to be in this script. The I screen shows I have possibly sunk about 6 subs over a period from Pearl harbor to October 1942. In other words, bugger all!
Okay, if we go by the IJN sub doctrine, they should be seeking out allied warships rather than merchant ships, but even so, I have had allied warships in the front line and not attracted IJN sub attacks.
I am grateful that the AI script follows the IJN OTL doctrine but having been warned by many and various other players abut the need for ASW TFs, I have not really seen the need for them. Unless my own unguided efforts have been sufficient to keep the IJN subs down and to force them to abort attacks that I don't obviously know about. So maybe the advice I have received and acted upon from others has meant that IJN sub attacks are being thwarted without me knowing about it.
I suppose I should be thankful for small mercies and I really am.
I have read a number of books about the failure of the IJN sub doctrine and how their focus on the enemy battle line was totally myopic and ignored the lessons of the Atlantic war. The often offered statement that the Bushido spirit frowned on attacking civilian shipping when the chance of attacking enemy warships could occur is a repetitive theme in all these studies. Maybe this is what the AI is trying to replicate.


What IJN sub doctrine in AE?

Alfred

(in reply to LGKMAS)
Post #: 12
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/15/2020 1:03:07 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

Priority conversions in terms of support ships are AE/AKE, AV, AD, AS.


You should consider some AR's as well.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 13
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/15/2020 5:57:00 AM   
LGKMAS

 

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Yes, I know. I was perhaps a bit lax in my answer. My Fwd Sub base groupings include an AMc for local minesweeping, a SC based ASW TF, as well as the others. So the AG is there to help out with the repairs etc of the Local M/S TF and the ASW TF.

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Post #: 14
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/15/2020 10:57:41 AM   
LGKMAS

 

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I tried to find those that convert to AR, but as someone has hinted they were Dutch ships, they were probably sunk early in the pull back. I have gone through all the existing ships, looking at the Dutch in particular and there doesn't seem to be any that are able to be converted to ARs.

(in reply to rustysi)
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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/15/2020 3:37:20 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LGKMAS

I tried to find those that convert to AR, but as someone has hinted they were Dutch ships, they were probably sunk early in the pull back. I have gone through all the existing ships, looking at the Dutch in particular and there doesn't seem to be any that are able to be converted to ARs.

The Rigel is the one I currently have converting to AR. As mentioned, the AR conversion is not available until after the ship does a previous upgrade.
The Krakatau is the one that can become an AGP.
There is also a Dutch AS that can covert to an AR in 1944.

All the above is for stock game. I think the RA mods played with a lot of the support ship stuff.

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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/15/2020 4:41:39 PM   
Yaab


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Rear Admiral Gary Oldman: EVERYONE!!!

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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/15/2020 7:20:24 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Rear Admiral Gary Oldman: EVERYONE!!!

I know of an actor by that name, but I don't get your reference.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/27/2020 1:34:30 AM   
CaptBeefheart


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Don't worry about creating ADs - the US gets quite a few and AKEs can also re-provision DDs. The ADs do help with minor repairs for DDs, but so do ARs.



I'm pretty sure you need ADs to reload DD torps, though, which is a very good reason to convert ships to AD (if there are any such conversions) and keep them close to the action.

A forward sub base with a small ARD (if a Babes-based scenario), AR and AS works very well. I try to set one of those up at Adak, for instance.

Cheers,
CB

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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/27/2020 1:55:37 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptBeefheart


quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Don't worry about creating ADs - the US gets quite a few and AKEs can also re-provision DDs. The ADs do help with minor repairs for DDs, but so do ARs.



I'm pretty sure you need ADs to reload DD torps, though, which is a very good reason to convert ships to AD (if there are any such conversions) and keep them close to the action.

A forward sub base with a small ARD (if a Babes-based scenario), AR and AS works very well. I try to set one of those up at Adak, for instance.

Cheers,
CB

I have reloaded DD torps from an AKE many times. PT boats too. Subs might not - I haven't tried because I always have an AS present to help with repairs too.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/27/2020 10:37:40 AM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Yaab

Rear Admiral Gary Oldman: EVERYONE!!!

I know of an actor by that name, but I don't get your reference.


Movie Leon.



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Post #: 21
RE: conversions? how many? - 10/27/2020 11:13:57 AM   
LGKMAS

 

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Yes, Adak is one of my own advanced bases. I am also using the following as SSTF advanced bases. realizing this is Oct 42.

Merauke, as I have a number of Dutch SS and I want to reach up into Tarakan and Southern PI. I have managed to keep Merauke as a Dutch base and evacuated virtually all the Dutch PA sdns as well as a sizeable number of Mitchel sdns there.

Carnarvon, as I want to reach out to Palembang and other areas. Dutch boats and some S Boats at the moment but moving Gatos etc there to extend the reach and time on station. Exmouth is being developed but not sure the gains are worth the effort.

Townsville to use the S Boats with limited range against the Solomons, Bismarck sea and Manus areas. Thinking about moving this to Milne Bay to extend the range and time on station.

Luganville to service the SOPAC islands. Still thinking about what boats to station there.

Midway for the mid Pacific island chains.

Adak to do the Japanese Home Islands.

Obviously Colombo for the Burmese coast and Northern Malacca straits.

I am thinking about using Chittagong as an advanced sub base as it might give me the extra time on station.

Sub warfare is taking a lot of thought, especially the patrol zones. And of course coming up the wholesale withdrawal from service of a large number of boats to upgrade. I really want the upgrades so I am willing to accept a shortfall in coverage while this happens.
However, I am starting to see a good result as my S Boats, British and Dutch boats are getting me an average of a sinking a day and the Mk 14 are not as bad as I had expected them to be. A number of Mk 14 Combat reports show "launched 2 torpedoes " and then no result, But every now and then I get an I Report of so many ships sunk so I am grateful for small mercies. And yes I know FOW can distort this.
When was this game ever easy? But isn't that why we play it?

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RE: conversions? how many? - 10/28/2020 7:49:42 PM   
Taxcutter

 

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My horde of subs keeps me burning brain cells just to keep them from running out of fuel.

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Post #: 23
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