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Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 3:08:47 AM   
Harrybanana

 

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I am hoping to get a discussion going about some of the more unique moves and strategies that people have seen. The type of moves that you have either come up with or seen that make you shake your head at the audacity of it. Please post these whether you think they are clever or stupid (and remember there is a fine line between the two). For myself, I don't have the ingenuity to Think Outside the Box; but in my last few games I have seen a few. My favourites are:

1. As the Allies, using a cheap division to capture the hexes in Denmark necessary to deactivate a minefield hex and then sailing in with the French Fleet to raid the Baltic convoy route. Of course, the Axis will destroy the division and the Fleet will be trapped. So you will need to use an oiler every 3 turns to supply the fleet (the oiler somehow managing to get through the minefields). But the cost to the Germans is much greater. My ranking: Brilliant!

2. As the Allies, building French and UK paratroopers early in the game (ie starting production on or before November 39). An opponent did this to me. I assume his intention was to use them to land behind my German lines to take out unprotected air units and prevent armour retreats. But as luck would have it he accidentally triggered Italian entry into the War. So he used his airborne, along with an undetected division in the Mediterranean, to take out Milan, Trieste and Turin all in the same turn causing Italy to surrender. Stupid of me of course, but how many of you would have foreseen that both the French and UK would have paratroopers in May 1940? My Ranking: Brilliant, at least if you are playing me.

3. As the Axis, not even attempting to take any of the Polish objectives other than Warsaw. Once Warsaw falls the other cites will wither from lack of supply anyway. You don't even have to use (and lose) any of the Luftwaffe for this. Casualties are therefore kept to a minimum and units can be railed or flown West on Turn 1. My Ranking: Brilliant.

4. As the Axis, disbanding most of the German Army after the fall of Poland. The production points are then used to build 5 to 6 armour units. I think my opponent had 7 or 8 for the invasion of France. My ranking: Not very Clever. The game is still ongoing and my opponent may yet pull this one out of the bag, but I think he will end up missing all of those infantry.

5. One I haven't seen but have heard of is the Axis invasion of the USA. Has anyone done this or seen it done?



< Message edited by Harrybanana -- 10/13/2020 3:11:28 AM >
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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 3:30:27 AM   
MorningDew

 

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1. Gamey - the number of hexes you have to garrison against invasions, especially in the early game, isn't historical at this scale.

2. Gamey - neither side had tech for large scale airborne early in the war, especially not the allies. Crete, 1941, was the first large scale usage. I would love to see minimum tech levels required for certain builds/actions (including airborne and invasions). At a minimum, sides should have visibility into airborne units/landing ships being built/stationed. The idea of building significant airborne capabilities or invasion capabilities undetected was minimal.

3. Gamey - overly leveraging game mechanics. Ahistorical. Solution is that there should always be at least one supply source in any unconquered country, capital is always a supply source.

4. No issue, likely not smart in the long run, but a resource decision.

5. Never seen it, but shouldn't be possible. Ahistorical. If loaded German transports cross some line (49 hexes away), US entry should be triggered.

I am all for creativity and attempting different strategies from history, but they need to have historical parameters and ramifications.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/13/2020 3:43:59 AM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 4:09:25 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Adding some US entry hits to DOWs from the Allies should disincentive some of these actions.

I also have an idea for Poland

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 4:22:43 AM   
canuckgamer

 

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I just started my first PBEM game with a friend and we are using it as a learning experience so your points 1-4 wouldn't even be anything we would be thinking of.
However the paratroopers brings up a issue I have with SC WIE which I have played multiple times and that is there is no limit to the number of times you can drop paratroopers which is totally unhistorical. In one PBEM game the Allies took Alexandria with a air drop! Historically the Germans did it once, Crete, and the Allies even with all their resources only were able to stage two major operations, D-Day and Market Garden.
MorningDew makes a good point about minimum tech levels but I would also like to see additional constraints such as limiting the number of paradrops.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 11:48:03 AM   
MorningDew

 

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US Entry hits to DOWs will not impact #1 in all cases - this can happen if the Germans have already taken Norway/Denmark - and the Allies invade to control the mine hexes and sweep into the Baltic. No Allied DOW is needed in this case and to defend it the Germans are forced to garrison the coastal hexes, not just the ports (maybe this is by design, but part of the argument to date about allowing the ability to invade everywhere has been the need to capture a port, but not if you are simply trying to get past minefields).

Issue can only be solved if the mine hexes are not changed by hex control (perhaps they should be changed by owning Oslo/Copenhagen?) or, partially solved if the mine control doesn't change immediately with hex control, giving the Axis a turn to react.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/13/2020 11:50:23 AM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 2:02:19 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Are they invading Denmark outright?

I take Denmark 2nd turn. In any board wargame I have played everyone takes Denmark 2nd turn.

I'll change UK landing ships to zero in 1939.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 2:35:46 PM   
MorningDew

 

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I think there are two scenarios. The first is probably most gamey - which is the UK DOW Denmark and takes minefield with sole intention of a suicide mission for the French fleet to destroy German commerce.

Second is after Denmark and Norway fall. In addition to needing to garrison ports, Germans need to garrison minefield hexes. Maybe as designed.


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 5:00:43 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Are they invading Denmark outright?

I take Denmark 2nd turn. In any board wargame I have played everyone takes Denmark 2nd turn.

I'll change UK landing ships to zero in 1939.


Alvaro,

Taking Denmark on the 2nd turn as Axis will not prevent this. The Allies simply invade and take just the hexes they need to so the French Fleet can sail into the Baltic. Changing the UK landing ships to 0 won't prevent this as the French also have landing ships. Even if you also reduce the French to 0 landing ships it still won't prevent this, only delay it. If the Allies want to use this tactic they would simply build a landing ship and then use it in 90 days. The only way the Axis can prevent this is by garrisoning multiple hexes in Denmark. I agree with MorningDew that the best way to prevent this would be to tie minefields to nearby port ownership rather than hex ownership. Another would be to prevent fleets that cannot trace a route back to a home port from using oilers.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 5:05:22 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Although I welcome the discussion on the examples I have given, does anyone else have any "Thinking Outside the Box" moves they would like to add to the list.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 9:13:03 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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I suppose that an example you are looking for would be to send the entire US fleet of maneuvers to the Mediterranean before going to war and block all landing sites for the axis.

< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 10/13/2020 9:44:22 PM >

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 9:36:58 PM   
MorningDew

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

I suppose an example you are looking for would be to maneuver the entire US fleet before going to war and block all landing sites for the axis.


Yep - that's a good one...brilliant but gamey:)

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/13/2020 9:37:22 PM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 10:13:11 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComadrejaKorp

I suppose that an example you are looking for would be to send the entire US fleet of maneuvers to the Mediterranean before going to war and block all landing sites for the axis.


What I was originally looking for are those moves (both good and bad) that are out of the ordinary. This certainly qualifies as that. But so far anyway it would appear that some people think that most of these moves are gamey. So I will broaden the scope of my question and ask people to also comment on which of the moves they think are gamey and which ones legit.

The move you have suggested is obviously gamey. But a similar move I have seen and done myself is to start moving US forces across the Atlantic prior to December 41 so that when War is declared you can immediately invade Portugal or North Africa or wherever else you want. I don't know if this qualifies as "Thinking Outside the Box", but is it gamey or legit?

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 11:07:51 PM   
MorningDew

 

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Well, "some people" are mostly me:)

Here is my criteria...does something have a realistic historical possibility and, if so, what would the ramifications have been.

I consider something gamey if it is possible in the game but not realistically feasible in the actual war (either due to technical, geographic or political reasons) or that can be done without the historical ramifications.

I absolutely want players to be able to choose paths different from history as long as the path is realistic and has accurate ramifications.

Moving the troops before the US entry is gamey in my opinion...you know a date ahead of time when they will enter. Until December 7th, the US didn't have the national political ability to do this.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/13/2020 11:22:26 PM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 11:12:28 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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This thread is very interesting, I think we all share the idea of starting the game in a historically real setting and from there create our own story but always with some reality parameters, and here comes the problem.
Could the US bring its fleet and troops closer together before the Dow? The connoisseurs will know political reasons why this could not be done, but I believe that if it is legal, I do not know the consequences it would have had, but if there was no technical impediment it should be possible.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 11:15:52 PM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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I was writing at the same time as you, I was not referring to your opinion that I also see legitimate.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 11:16:00 PM   
MorningDew

 

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Definitely no technical reason, but not realistically politically.

I could see something where the US actually has no troops until the war starts (all in reserve, immediately available) until they come into the war OR US entry reaches some level.

But of course, then people will invade the US as the Axis...which would be technically feasible, not remotely realistic.

Perhaps one other option would be that the US troops appear to deploy if the Axis has troops loaded and within 30 hexes of the US...not able to invade in one turn.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/13/2020 11:20:27 PM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 11:47:51 PM   
MorningDew

 

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Also, to be clear, unless there are specific house rules agreed upon before a game, I have no issues with a player doing something the game allows. It isn't the players job to enforce constraints, it is the games responsibility.

And Alvara has done a good job of incrementally creating constraints or consequences and new tactics are discovered and exposed.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/13/2020 11:59:36 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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I removed all UK and French landing craft from the 1939 scenario. They shouldn't be invading anything.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 12:08:39 AM   
michaelCLARADY

 

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In one game I invaded the both the US and Canada. Used a relatively small force but caused him to hasty recall troops from England to counter me. I still held Quebec at the end of the game. My New Confederacy in the USA ( que 'Bonnie Blue Flag' here) was eventually put down. Sady, I had overreached in the Med in 1940 and ended up postponing the USSR invasion to'42- as usual a fatal mistake as my efforts in the Med- Spain, Vichy NA & Syria aimed at Suez and Gibraltar were a fail. Still, I believe my opponent was truly surprised to open the turn and find the Germans in charge of Washington DC.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 12:14:10 AM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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Perfect Alvaro! Thank you.
The question now is, in 40 will we be able to send commands to deactivate the minefields? the problem will be the same.
Have you seen the movie TIRPITZ? the Allies sank it with minisubmarines (they really only damaged it), a mission everyone said was crazy, but they did it. This is precisely what I would not like to remove from the game, paratroopers, suicide landings is what in my view they reproduce it.
Yes, to limit its use with rules, but if the only option being the frontal collision would become boring.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 12:32:54 AM   
MorningDew

 

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Tirpitz is possible in the game, attack in port with subs. It was also attacked by long range bombers.

Busting through to the Baltic if the Germans have Denmark and Norway isn't realistic and (my opinion) shouldn't be possible. That said, answer might end up that the Germans have to garrison a whole bunch of hexes in both Norway and Denmark.


< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/14/2020 12:38:22 AM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 12:44:04 AM   
ComadrejaKorp

 

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Deactivated minefields to invade Denmark or Norway be considered realistic? I ask it to define a new rule of the house.
It seems that my submarines are not mini, the last time a pack of wolves attacked a port with 4 BBs (2 of them seriously damaged) they inflicted a hard hit on my subs 10: 1 ):

< Message edited by ComadrejaKorp -- 10/14/2020 12:48:28 AM >

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 2:03:54 AM   
MorningDew

 

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You yourself said it was crazy. Try it 1000 times and see if you get 10 or 50 results in your favor.

Try if 1 BB in a port like the Tirpitz. I suspect the odds will go up.

Try it on Trondhiem against 1 BB, and expect the odds will improve again.

But odds will still be low given it is a crazy attempt. If it wasn't crazy, subs would have been attacking ships in port all the time. But that isn't what happened in reality.

-----

Regarding house rule, I personally don't think so. If Alvaro thinks it is OK, Germans have to now garrison the coast of South Norway and Denmark. That's the game designers decision.
But it is pulling more and more troops away from France in 1940.couple that with the need to garrison behind lines for French paratroopers in 1940 (not realistic IMHO), and even more are pulled away.

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/14/2020 2:11:18 AM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 3:15:47 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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In the beta I made the minefields on the danish straights appear if Germany takes Norway.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 12:38:20 PM   
MorningDew

 

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Alvaro - the issue we are describing is that Germany now has to garrison not just ports, but minefield hexes, otherwise this tactic works at any time, not just early turns. Perhaps WAD, but he need to garrison minefield hexes against invasion certainly isn't intuitive.

Also - curious to get your take on people moving the US into position before 12/7 so they can invade immediately. (Personally, any way to lock the US (as most other neutral countries are locked) until they enter the war?)

< Message edited by MorningDew -- 10/14/2020 12:41:53 PM >


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 2:43:52 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Denmark and Norway - If the Allies want to raid the Baltic use air units to sink their ships. The UK does have an advantage in naval groups to the Allies but you sink 2-3 of them it becomes pretty even. Assuming the Axis took out Norway the Allies have to invade Norway, then Denmark, then get to the Baltic. Now if the Allies are all playing around in the Baltics in 1940 and you trap their fleet there the Italians have a free hand in the Med. WP allows more flexibility but often there is a cost involved and a counter strategy. Some things clearly are a no brainer advantage in the game and adjusted or removed like Greece to get Yugoslavia or the fact I forgot to give Ireland units. But in this case there is a cost for the Allies and you can always close the lane.

As for the US invasion - The best solution would be calling the national guard up when the Axis ships are West of St.Johns before they are in the war (45,43). Which I also do for the UK with the HG activation. This is making the assumption the UK was conquered by early 1941 and their fleet is vaporized. But if you are taking about the Germans sailing a tiny fleet with some divisions you didn't notice on the map during your turn then that's on you.

I'll add the NG reserves because it makes sense and I did it for the UK. Just in the spirit it cheeziness because I don't want a game ruined because someone's wife yelled at their husband and they hit end of turn replying "yes dear, right away dear" and forgot to check the East Coast for a Nazi invasion sneak fleet they could have easily prevented.


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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 3:48:51 PM   
MorningDew

 

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For US - would the concept be not having any US units? The real issue is that players are moving the US into position to they can invade immediately.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 6:28:03 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Ok so let's get some things down here.

#1 What year is it?
#2 What is the status of the game? Who is conquered? What does the Axis control, etc.

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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 7:44:50 PM   
MorningDew

 

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#1 - 1941, before US entry
#2 - the US is moving units into position to invade or land in the UK before they enter the war. Some people are moving US fleets to block access to invasion hexes to the Axis.

Question was is this OK or gamey.

Comment was made that the only two options to stop this are:

1. Freeze US troops until at war (like most neutral countries already are) - best solution if this is considered an issue

2. Have no US units until they are at war - concern then is that Axis will invade a US with no units

So the question/problem is:

1. Do you think the US should be allowed to move units like this before they are at war?

2. If you do not think they should be allowed to do this, how do you stop it with creating another issue

Does that help?




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RE: Thinking Outside the Box - 10/14/2020 7:58:44 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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Not even 1941. It can happen in 1939 and 1940 as well.

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