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Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/11/2020 6:31:10 PM   
ncc1701e


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I am a little confused by the manual about winterized countries.

From the manual:

quote:

Winter Combat — The unit is trained with special winter combat tactics and equipment that allow them to fight better in snow or blizzard weather. They gain a 100% bonus in combat during these weather conditions.


quote:

The USSR and Finland are winterized countries that fight better when there is snow or blizzard compared to non-winterized countries. A winterized country has no snow or blizzard effectiveness penalties. If they also have winterization specialty, they gain +30% combat bonus.


quote:

Weather Effects — Snow and blizzard reduce effectiveness recovered by 10% and 20%, respectively. If a country is winterized, the weather has no effect on their units. The USSR and Finland are winterized countries that have no adverse effects from snow or blizzard.


Thus, does an USSR unit with winterization specialty gain a 130% combat bonus during snow or blizzard?
And, I understand no USSR units will be affected by a reduce effectiveness recovery.

From memories, I am not sure that the four Siberians reserve armies all have the winterization specialty. Is it intent? They are Siberians after all.

Thanks

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 10/11/2020 6:32:28 PM >


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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/11/2020 7:34:33 PM   
ago1000


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I'm going to give this a shot. If I'm incorrect I apologize in advance. You are talking about two different aspects. One effectiveness recovery, the second combat. The latter is the one I am having difficulty with. So I've provided you an example of effectiveness recovery below. So the answer to your second question which I didn't answer originally is yes. I'm working on combat, I can't find the weather effect on combat table in the manual. Ugh.

Here is the effectiveness recover calculation for four types of units one with a starting of 80% efficiency and the second with 40%. The table shows the amount of increase they would get based off the manual 0.081.




Appendum: I wrote efficiency but it should read effectiveness recovery. Sorry. Should use proper terminology.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 10/11/2020 8:25:40 PM >


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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/11/2020 8:29:20 PM   
ago1000


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Found the table. They would get a 30% specialty bonus and not suffer the 35% weather penalty. So 65% advantage over a unit that doesn't have the winterization specialty and is not a winterized country.

Appendum to my original post:
Math wise:
Unit Attack Strength Original = 10 (not mentioning any other modifiers)
Winterized country with specialty
Strength = 13 (no penalty + 30% bonus) the 130% you are talking about.
Winterized country no specialty
Strength 10 (no penalty no bonus)
Non winterized country with specialty
Strength = 9.5 (loss of 5% -35% weather + 30% bonus)
Non winterized country with no specialty
Strength = 6.5 ( loss of 35% because of weather and no bonus) – difference of 65%

Thanks for bringing this up. Originally I'd have said no. But when I do the math based on the readings of the manual I need to say yes. I have no problems with calculating the effectiveness because that formula is in the manual. (Sorry for the long winded response of yes, with calculations to the question above).



< Message edited by ago1000 -- 10/11/2020 9:25:07 PM >


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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/12/2020 3:56:25 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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The +30% is a typo.

It should read. I updated it in the new 1.00.08 manual.

(a) The USSR and Finland are winterized countries that fight better when there is snow or blizzard compared to non-winterized countries. A winterized country has no snow or blizzard effectiveness penalties.

Winterized countries may also add the winterized combat specialization to their land units gaining +100% combat bonus in snow or blizzard.


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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/12/2020 11:04:25 PM   
michaelCLARADY

 

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https://www.armyupress.army.mil/Portals/7/combat-studies-institute/csi-books/chew.pdf

Excellent discussion of winter warfare in Russia.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 3:56:11 AM   
ncc1701e


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Thanks all for the detailed answer and calculation. Will read the above paper with attention.

Just wondering why the Siberians are not coming directly with the winterization specialty.
These guys are those who were normally appropriately equipped with clothing, weapons and transport for winter environment.
Siberians are partly responsible of the ground regained during the Winter 1941-1942 around Moscow.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 3:57:02 AM   
ncc1701e


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They are coming like this.




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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 3:57:39 AM   
ncc1701e


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I would have expected them to come directly like this.




Attachment (1)

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 4:03:45 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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They have a higher experience. They aren't супермен (superman) in Russian

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 4:36:35 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Thinking out loud here : I wonder if it could be possible to reduce the experience but compensate with the winterisation advancement? Could be a nice touch roleplay wise. Might affect overall balance however...

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 6:39:43 PM   
ncc1701e


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Well, I want both: the experience AND the winterization specialty. Even superman needs a cape for winter.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 6:49:25 PM   
ago1000


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My 0.76 cents for today:

On the topic of specialization, is it possible to include it in the editor with edit unit or build unit. Just in case you are creating a scenario and would like to give a unit a specialization at scenario start.

Also, maybe adding a specialization point variable in campaign dialog box. This way a scenario can start off with points and a player can distribute them as they wish.





< Message edited by ago1000 -- 10/13/2020 6:50:23 PM >


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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/13/2020 7:01:55 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

They have a higher experience. They aren't супермен (superman) in Russian


And sorry, the higher experience is just 50% so...

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/14/2020 12:02:03 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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Considering they start at 35% that's a huge increase.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/14/2020 12:03:52 AM   
AlvaroSousa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

My 0.76 cents for today:

On the topic of specialization, is it possible to include it in the editor with edit unit or build unit. Just in case you are creating a scenario and would like to give a unit a specialization at scenario start.

Also, maybe adding a specialization point variable in campaign dialog box. This way a scenario can start off with points and a player can distribute them as they wish.



You can....
Edit Unit -> Lower left says Spec.: -> Adjust as needed

Builds don't start with specializations.


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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/14/2020 4:30:45 AM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa


quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

My 0.76 cents for today:

On the topic of specialization, is it possible to include it in the editor with edit unit or build unit. Just in case you are creating a scenario and would like to give a unit a specialization at scenario start.

Also, maybe adding a specialization point variable in campaign dialog box. This way a scenario can start off with points and a player can distribute them as they wish.



You can....
Edit Unit -> Lower left says Spec.: -> Adjust as needed

Builds don't start with specializations.


OMG I'm blind.
Thanks.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/14/2020 6:30:16 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Considering they start at 35% that's a huge increase.


Not really because the time (i.e. turn) they are arriving, in my current game, the overall experience of the Red army has already increased to 44%. The delta is not so high.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/14/2020 10:40:23 PM   
MagicMissile


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I wouldnt mind if they arrived 1 turn earlier. Depending on the frontline in some games I played I get them to the front and maybe make their first attack 2nd turn of January 1942.

/MM

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/16/2020 10:13:51 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The USSR and Finland are winterized countries that fight better when there is snow or blizzard compared to non-winterized countries. A winterized country has no snow or blizzard effectiveness penalties.


Does Germany / Romania really have snow or blizzard effectiveness penalties?

After several attacks of the same unit in snow, blizzard turns, looks like it is recoverying well. Just a feeling since I can't see the other side.

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 10/16/2020 10:48:46 PM >


_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/16/2020 10:51:28 PM   
malkarma

 

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Believe me, they suffer the effects of winter. But to be really noticiable you need several Blizzard turns in a row. also, if your opponent is agressive with the trucks, he can more or less contain the effectiveness drain.

< Message edited by malkarma -- 10/16/2020 10:54:09 PM >

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/17/2020 3:57:21 PM   
kennonlightfoot

 

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Can someone explain exactly how winterized, snow and blizzard effect combat?

I haven't seen the game estimated odds change enough to notice for adjacent German and Russian units. Although this could be because it isn't factored into the estimates and actual combat will take place at better odds.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/17/2020 5:25:29 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Winterized countries don't suffer the effects of snow/blizzard
Winter combat specialization increases their combat value +100%. This is NOT represented in the odds calculator.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/17/2020 5:47:21 PM   
ago1000


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Winterized countries don't suffer the effects of snow/blizzard
Winter combat specialization increases their combat value +100%. This is NOT represented in the odds calculator.

But it will show up on the odds as the effectiveness of the German units decreases due to the harsh weather.
In the video, there are two german units(1 with Winter Combat) and 8 Russian units(4 with Winter Combat). The Russian units are easy, their effectiveness keeps going up. However, the one German unit that doesn't have it's specialty effectiveness drops that over time its odds of attacking go from 1:1 to 1:2.

Here is the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAw0H29kL9s&feature=youtu.be&ab_channel=WW2Boardgamer0100

Hindsight has Axis players buying lots of trucks and keeping the effectiveness up. As a result, that is why you don't see a change in the odds.

Appendum: Alvaro,you might consider placing them in the odds calculation, this might allow some winter offensives instead of the static winter strategies.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 10/17/2020 6:50:14 PM >


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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/17/2020 7:12:55 PM   
AlvaroSousa


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Sorry I had a headache and misread the post.

the Winter combat specialization does show in combat. In fact I looked it over and found an error in the calculation not showing properly.

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RE: Siberians & Winter Combat - 10/17/2020 10:00:33 PM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

In fact I looked it over and found an error in the calculation not showing properly.


Great thanks, perhaps if people finally see some 2:1 ratio they will attack a little more during winter...

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 25
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