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[Resolved] A/C on SEAD Patrol not taking HARM shot

 
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[Resolved] A/C on SEAD Patrol not taking HARM shot - 10/7/2020 12:03:33 PM   
Swant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/19/2020
Status: offline 		I sat up a SEAD mission to fire at a sa2 when it turned on its traking radar. However, the f18 armed with a HARM wont fire unless I manualy tell it to.
The sa2 is within the prosecution area.
When I go to the mission doctrine and set "engage targets of opportunity" on it will, but shoudn't it attack all radars inside the prosecution area without that option on?
Maybe I missed some other option in the mission editor?




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< Message edited by Steve McClaire -- 10/27/2020 2:53:19 AM >
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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 12:05:10 PM   
Swant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/19/2020
Status: offline 		save

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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 12:15:40 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online 		Try this.

Go to the Mission Doctrine and make sure that the Target of Opportunity Button is checked to allow for that. Then try your scenario. That might be your problem.

Doug

(in reply to Swant)
Post #: 3
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 12:38:44 PM   
Swant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/19/2020
Status: offline 		yeah I know it will work with that option on. However there are several downsides to that. It is very easy to forget in planning and if you are not careful every aircraft with a HARM will fire of everything on a single unimportant radar.
My question is why it doesn't work without that option

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Post #: 4
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 1:09:09 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online 		I hear you.

I have been wishing for a "select a radar target" option for a while, but it has apparently fallen on deaf ears.

What you say is true, the aircraft will fire at whatever they see, and that can be really annoying at the planning stages. As you said, they will go after some random radar and leave the SAM alone.

Hopefully, your inquiry will solicit a positive outcome.

Doug


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Post #: 5
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 1:18:28 PM   
Swant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/19/2020
Status: offline 		yes maybe

Thank you

Svante

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Post #: 6
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 6:47:07 PM   
KungPao


Posts: 283
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline 		Works fine here.
looks like it just has 10 seconds delay (and you can consider that as a command delay)







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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 6:51:16 PM   
KungPao


Posts: 283
Joined: 4/25/2016
From: Red China
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

I hear you.

I have been wishing for a "select a radar target" option for a while, but it has apparently fallen on deaf ears.

What you say is true, the aircraft will fire at whatever they see, and that can be really annoying at the planning stages. As you said, they will go after some random radar and leave the SAM alone.

Hopefully, your inquiry will solicit a positive outcome.

Doug




+1
and it will be great if the game can split "FCR radar" with "Search radar" in weapon doctorine.



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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 7:25:29 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online 		I had a beautifully planned attack set up for the AI side, and just when I thought that it would work, it fired all of their HARMs at the radar unit and headed for home. Nothing went toward the SAM. If I'm playing as a human player, I like to fire one HARM at the radar unit to get the SAM to light up, and then fire everything else at the SAM. I suppose that everyone uses that tactic.

It would really be great if they could designate which type of radar unit that your SEAD unit would like to hit.

Doug

(in reply to KungPao)
Post #: 9
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 7:40:25 PM   
Swant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/19/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KungPao

Works fine here.
looks like it just has 10 seconds delay (and you can consider that as a command delay)







quote:

Works fine here.
looks like it just has 10 seconds delay (and you can consider that as a command delay)


Yes you are right.I wasn't patient enough. Still a little bit strange, because if you manually target the radar the f18 will fire immediately

(in reply to KungPao)
Post #: 10
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/7/2020 9:51:27 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 5417
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: online 		This might not be the case here, but have seen similar situations where the AI won't fire automatically, but the player can force weapon fire. I did a little investigative work on it and my conclusion was that the AI was waiting for a more optimum range for a better chance of a hit. I could be all wet on it because none of my testing was scientific. Just a thought. I see it mostly in AAW situations, but have seen it in surface attacks also.

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Post #: 11
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/8/2020 5:34:27 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2723
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: online 		WAD - SEAD #2 has the target allocated currently; Salvo quantity dictates that the Hornet waits for the EA-6B to take its shot before firing off another.

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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/8/2020 6:43:53 AM   
Swant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/19/2020
Status: offline 		Ok so even though they are on two independent missions they share salvo quantity settings, good to know!
However
1. Why does it have to wait? The missile defence of sa2 is 10
2. In my case the Hornet accually fires first, and not sure what you mean by firing off another, it only has one HARM

I think there might be the boresight bug that is in play, I loaded an earlier save to get more wiggle room, and got out of borsesight when shift-F1 SEAD#2, same thing with SEAD#1




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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/8/2020 6:47:10 AM   
Swant

 

Posts: 60
Joined: 7/19/2020
Status: offline 		Earlier save

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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/8/2020 11:46:29 AM   
boogabooga

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 7/18/2018
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Swant

yeah I know it will work with that option on. However there are several downsides to that. It is very easy to forget in planning and if you are not careful every aircraft with a HARM will fire of everything on a single unimportant radar.
My question is why it doesn't work without that option


You need to go set your WRA for the HARM. One round per radar is usually fine until you start facing the S-300 technology level.

The 'missile defense values' for the SA-2, etc. are actually rather high, IMHO, considering that they can't actually target the HARM. So use less in your WRA.

(in reply to Swant)
Post #: 15
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/8/2020 12:46:18 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online 		The problem is that if your aircraft is set to one round (definitely sufficient for a defenseless radar unit), then it will also only fire one round at the SAM. By firing only one round at at time at most SAMs is useless.

So, the issue is really kind of centered around ONE strategy is responsible for addressing TWO different types of radar-based targets. By tailoring it for one, you are essentially ignoring (or overkilling) the other.

It would be great if the HARMs could have a radar-specific target designation.

(in reply to boogabooga)
Post #: 16
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/8/2020 5:29:16 PM   
boogabooga

 

Posts: 200
Joined: 7/18/2018
Status: offline 		I don't disagree with that, but in the meantime WRA + manual target allocation offers a workaround.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 17
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/9/2020 4:24:02 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 13092
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Melbourne, Australia
Status: offline 		has the request to have 'sead target radar types' been added to the request thread?

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Michael

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Post #: 18
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/9/2020 10:59:21 AM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: boogabooga

I don't disagree with that, but in the meantime WRA + manual target allocation offers a workaround.


As a GAME PLAYER, you are correct. You can target things manually. But, as a scenario designer, it doesn't work well at all when you are trying to program the AI to be able to do the same thing for the other side. You can't target a mobile SAM unit that you don't see because it's not radiating. If you assign a unit to SEAD Patrol, the unit is just as likely to send all of its missiles toward the radar unit instead of the SAM. If you assign the unit to a Support Mission, then you have to check the target Of Opportunity box which, again, means that it will shoot at whatever comes along first, which is always the radar unit. Having your whole strike destroyed because your HARM-armed aircraft fired 16 missiles at a radar unit but never attacked the SAM unit creates a big problem. So, it would be nice to be able to select what type of radar unit that you would like to actually target.

Doug

(in reply to boogabooga)
Post #: 19
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/9/2020 12:38:04 PM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 5417
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: online 		As a scenario designer, there are ways to filter and prioritize targets through more advanced Lua scripts. I've never done it, but can see how it would be done.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 20
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/9/2020 1:15:52 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online 		Thanks for the tip.

I'm not very good with Lua, but I am excellent at being able to look at something that someone else has done (like the Lua script) and use that as an example to go by. Do you know of any scenarios where the designer has used Lua to accomplish this? That could really be quite useful.

Thanks again.

Doug

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 21
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/10/2020 1:33:15 PM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 567
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline 		As an operational game, not a study sim, it's probably unrealistic to match ARM types to SAM target types. However it could be feasible to treat targets in a similar way to ships, where each has a 'Harpoon rating'. That way a radar could have a low 'HARM' rating attracting a single ARM, for example, whereas a tough SAM site would need several. If there were a certain granularity of SAM target types based on such a rating, then those could also be configurable in the WRA. It would be a quantitative solution that's much simpler to implement than anything qualitative, and would work identically for the AI.

< Message edited by guanotwozero -- 10/10/2020 1:35:22 PM >

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Post #: 22
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/10/2020 2:31:49 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online 		I understand your point, and certainly that would be a way of applying a Band-Aid-type solution to the problem.

But, from what I have been told, the professional version of this simulation has most of the same characteristics that this version has. Certainly, if the military is actually using this simulation as a test platform, then it would drive them nuts if all of their HARM-armed units fired their missiles at a single radar unit, but failed to address the S-300 SAM battalion. That would be extremely unrealistic.

For simulation operational purposes, I would assume that the way that the professional version addresses this situation would be the same as how our version does. I assume this for two reasons. One, it's important; and two, because it's easier to have both version play in the same manner otherwise, as developers, you are constantly shifting back and forth. To not have them work in the same way would be somewhat ludicrous.

Thus, you would have to conclude that the professional version likely has the exact same issue as our version.

I have tried every method, sans Lua, to address this. The program will always address the radar-emitting target that it encounters first. The only way to "attempt" to get around it is to send another group of planes around the backside of the target area, so that the SAM is now the closest unit to them, and to delay their target off because you want the radar unit to be addressed first. Still, this method has some limitations, as well. The most important being, you aren't supposed to actually KNOW where the MOBILE SAM unit is before you launch your planes, because it could have moved.

Obviously, the whereabouts of a MOBILE SAM unit could (on does) change in real life. Hence, a SEAD PATROL (or SUPPORT) mission would be the logical choice to approach the situation. And, there may actually be times where it would be more advantageous to destroy the radar unit first, but not at the expense of never addressing the SAM (which usually has its own radar unit attached to it).

I believe that the best solution is to simply add another radar designation to the drop-down menu to further identify which type of radar (or the order of which) that you would desire to attack.

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 23
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/10/2020 3:03:26 PM   
guanotwozero

 

Posts: 567
Joined: 12/27/2013
Status: offline 		Yes that would be a better solution, though it would mean making judgement calls about the OOB of the red team so as to deal with surprises. The priority list would have to allow everything in the DB so as not to give clues to the player. Then there's the problem of dealing with many different DB entries for minor variants, so that may require a 'similarity' grouping approach. A lot of work, but there's not really any way round that for doing it properly.

If that can be done, the problem would then be how does the enemy AI do the equivalent - it would need a similar sort of judgement call that we humans are good at. Perhaps that's where scenario designers just implement their call, as they always know the blue-team OOB! And as you say there's the issue of judging when to dynamically vary the priority list, such as radar first, as that's the sort of tactical decision that can't easily be implemented by the designer. A real challenge indeed.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 24
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/10/2020 9:19:34 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1566
Joined: 3/21/2014
Status: online 		A simple way which should work is to designate a specific STRIKE mission against the radar unit, and then designate a SEAD PATROL (or SUPPORT) mission to the area a very short time later. I say very short because the STRIKE unit would need to launch its missiles at the radar and RTB, and the SEAD PATROL would need to follow the STRIKE mission close by. It would need to be to be able to fire at the SAM unit when the SAM unit pops up, but not so close that it would want to also fire at the radar unit BEFORE it finds the SAM. It's tricky. Hey, the Advanced Mission Planner would be great for this type of thing! <lol>

(in reply to guanotwozero)
Post #: 25
RE: maybe a bug? - 10/12/2020 5:04:41 AM   
Rory Noonan

 

Posts: 2723
Joined: 12/18/2014
From: Brooklyn, NY
Status: online 		Logged for investigation.

0014192

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RE: maybe a bug? - 10/27/2020 2:51:56 AM   
Steve McClaire

 

Posts: 4329
Joined: 11/19/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Swant
quote:

ORIGINAL: KungPao
Works fine here.
looks like it just has 10 seconds delay (and you can consider that as a command delay)

Yes you are right.I wasn't patient enough. Still a little bit strange, because if you manually target the radar the f18 will fire immediately


The delay is from the OODA loop / reaction time that simulates human information processing, communications, and reaction time. Every unit has a certain time interval where re-evaluate threats and targets -- your saved game has just caught that F-18 near the start of that interval.

In terms of controlling the AI behavior, I'd suggest a land strike mission with specific targets so you can control which aircraft go after search radar(s) and which go after SAMs. I'll double check that the suggestion for specific radar targeting was recorded.


(in reply to Swant)
Post #: 27
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