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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/7/2020 4:01:51 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Our pleasure Michael, and that formula is also found in the Manual under section 7.25.5, but probably gets lost in the details there once the tables show up in 7.25.6. Also as the rules have changed a bit since the original release it can certainly then get even more confusing when referencing the Manual. We try our best to not change too much and to keep things up to date, but as the game progresses some changes are inevitable to ensure optimal game play.

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 12/7/2020 4:02:02 PM >


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/7/2020 4:05:19 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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For the specific resource supply questions you've noted above in this thread, I needed some time to go through it all.

It looks like there is a bit of a bug in that once those primary/industrial sources of occupied Minors are cut off from a Major primary source of supply, they are not correctly dropping back to 5 as you would have expected when they were rail cut. They are however dropping to 3 when fully cut off.

This will be fixed in a future patch, but not likely until a patch for after the holidays.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/7/2020 6:58:18 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Thanks, Hubert. Something to think about in a future patch is simply eliminating Industrial Centers and Primary Supply Centers in Minor Powers altogether, so that there is no need for a rule to cover them as special cases. In the War in Europe game, there are no Primary Supply Centers outside the Major Powers (Ottawa is a Minor Capital, not a Primary Supply Source). And as I noted above, the only two Industrial Centers in Minors that I could find are St. John's and Kalamata. I have a specific suggestion regarding St. John's which I will make in a separate thread. As for Kalamata, it seems an anomaly to me that it is an Industrial Center - I find it hard to imagine many circumstances when the controlling player would want to build a Greek unit there if it was cut off from Athens. It would be simpler just to make it a Secondary Supply Center. I have briefly looked at the WW1 game and World at War maps and could not find other examples of Industrial Centers or Primary Supply Centers in other Minors in those games, so this might be an easy tweak to make across all three games.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/7/2020 7:39:50 PM   
mdsmall

 

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In the spirit of PvtBenjamin's suggestion which started this thread, I have been working for a while on my own effort to rewrite the rules governing supply and supply connections in way that takes into account all of the changes made in recent patches, plus the clarifications offered by Hubert and Bill in this Forum, including at the top of this thread. This rewrite is not/not meant to change any of the rules - it is just another way of explaining them in way that might be easier to follow for players who want to see all the supply rules one place. I do not try to cover all the effects of supply in these notes, or other aspects of the game rules (such as production and reinforcement of units) which are interspersed in the Game Manual with the supply rules. I have spelled out some of the implications of the supply rules that are not fully explained in the Game Manual and have included a few explanatory comments that I think might help players. I have tried to avoid using terminology from the Manual that I found confusing (such as the distinction between resources and Key Resources) and in some places have used my own terms in lower case that I think help explain the meaning of the rules.

My preference would have been to post these notes as an attachment but since that does not seem possible, I will paste them below as a single, very long post. No doubt there are corrections and improvements that could be made to these notes. All comments would be very welcome.

Michael

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/7/2020 7:58:41 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Notes on Supply Sources and Supply Connections (updated to reflect changes in version 1.19)

(covering Game Manual Sections 5.13, 7.11 - 7.14, 7.25.2 - 7.25.9, 7.26)

General

1. Supply is a fundamental factor in the game. Supply affects units' combat effectiveness, Action Points, capacity for Operational Movement, reinforcement levels, vulnerability to desertion and attrition, as well as the cost to National Morale if they are destroyed and the cost in MPPs if they are then rebuilt. The supply levels of towns, cities and ports determines where units can be built and up to what level they can be reinforced and if units can use Operational movement though them.

2. Land, air and naval units all need supply. Most of the following rules apply specifically to land units. For the differences in the rules rules governing supply for air and naval units, see the relevant section below.

3. Supply for both players is calculated at the end of each turn. You can check the supply potentially available to your land units in every hex at the start of your turn by pressing the S key. If you press the S key again, it will recalculate what your supply would be in each hex next turn, taking into account any moves you have made so far and any automatic increases in the level of friendly supply sources.

4. Land units have three potential sources of supply: urban resource hexes; ports; or HQ units. Often land units can trace a supply line to more than one of these sources. A unit's supply level is determined by the highest value supply source which it can reach through a line of supply.

5. A line of supply is a line of contiguous friendly controlled hexes between a unit and a supply source. Enemy zones of control do not cut supply lines, but enemy controlled hexes do.

6. Each supply source has a supply range which depends on its current supply level and the number of Action Points required to move from the source to the units being supplied. Terrain costs thus can reduce the supply available to land units. If a supply line can be traced over a road hexside, it will negate the terrain effects of that hex (unless it is an unpaved road in Mud conditions).

7. An urban resource, a port or a HQ can supply an unlimited number of friendly land units within supply range. (There are different rules for air units - see below).

Supply from Urban Resources

8. The following are the maximum supply levels available from the following friendly controlled urban resources:

a) Major Cities: 12
b) Cities, Fortresses and Fortified Towns: 10
c) Towns and Settlements: 8

9. Urban resources that have been captured from the enemy have their maximum supply levels reduced by an Occupational Efficiency factor. In the default campaign, this factor is set at 80% for every country except the Soviet Union, which is set at 60%. This gives the following maximums for occupied urban resources:

a) Major Cities: 10 (rest of the world); 7 (Soviet Union)
b) Cities, Fortresses and Fortified Towns: 8 (rest of the world); 6 (Soviet Union)
c) Towns and Settlements: 6 (rest of the world); 5 (Soviet Union)

10. An urban resource will only provide its maximum supply if it is connected by an unbroken line of friendly controlled rail hexes of any length to one of the following: a friendly Major's Capital, Industrial Center or Primary Supply Center. The rail line cannot pass through any urban resources with a supply level of less than 5.

11. The supply level available from any urban resource will be reduced to a maximum of 5 if any of the following conditions apply:

a) if it can trace a supply line over friendly controlled land hexes but not by rail to a friendly Major's Capital, Industrial Center or Primary Supply Center;
b) if it can only trace a supply line (by rail or land) to a Secondary Supply Center;
c) if it can only trace a supply line (by rail or land) to a Minor Capital;

12. If an urban resource is completely cut off by land from any of the above supply sources, its maximum supply level will be 3. This can happen if it is cut off from a supply source by enemy controlled or neutral hexes or by water hexes.

13. If the factors reducing the maximum supply of an urban resource no longer apply (e.g. if it has a rail link to a friendly Major Capital restored) the resource will increase its supply by 1 point a turn until it reaches its maximum. (This is the same rate as an urban resource will recover from attrition due to adjacent enemy units, combat damage or scorched earth effects).

Supply from Ports

14. Ports can also provide supply to land units. Since land units cannot occupy port hexes, a port's supply range starts from the friendly controlled land hexes adjacent to the port (which usually, but not always, includes an urban resource). Thus, a level 10 port provides level 10 supply to units in the adjacent land hexes, diminishing to zero over its supply range, just like an urban resource.

15. Port hexes provide supply to land units up to their maximum level provided that a supply line can be traced by rail from the port hex to a friendly Major Capital, Industrial Center or Primary Supply Center. The maximum level for Major Ports with such a rail connection is 12 and for regular Ports it is 10.

16. Major Ports and regular Ports that do not have a connection by rail to one the above friendly Major supply sources have their maximum level reduced to 5. (This is the reason why ports in Scandinavia, on islands in the Mediterranean, in North Africa, the Middle East and Canada all start the game at level 5).

17. Ports that have had their maximum level reduced by adjacent enemy units, combat damage or scorched earth will recover at the same rate as urban resources i.e. 1 point per turn.

18. Occupied ports will have their port levels reduced by the same Occupational Efficiency factor that applies to Urban Resources in that country.

19. The presence of an enemy naval or land unit adjacent to a port will block all supply to friendly land units from that port.

Supply from HQs

20. HQ units are also a source of supply. HQs take the supply they receive from their nearest supply source and then distribute it at a higher level to other units in their supply range. This supply distribution feature of HQs makes them especially valuable when your units are operating at or beyond the range of supply from friendly urban resources or ports.

21: You can see these two different supply values for an HQ if you click on it. The HQ's incoming supply level is listed first, followed in brackets by its supply distribution level. Thus, if a HQ unit has a supply of "5 (8)", its incoming supply is 5 and the supply it distributes is 8.

22. The maximum supply that a HQ distributes to other units depends on the strength of the HQ and its incoming supply. Full strength HQs distribute supply according to the following scale:

Incoming supply: 0 Distributed supply: 3
Incoming supply: 1 or 2 Distributed supply: 5
Incoming supply: 3 or 4 Distributed supply: 6
Incoming supply: 5 Distributed supply: 8
Incoming supply 6 up Distributed supply: 10

23. Under certain conditions, one HQ can boost the supply distributed by a second HQ that is within its supply range. Only two HQs can be linked this way to form a supply chain. Within a chain, the HQ with the lower command rating boosts the supply distributed by the higher rated HQ. (If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.) Supply boosting between two HQs applies:

a) If the first HQ has an incoming supply of 1 or 2 and the second HQ has an incoming supply of less than 3, then the second HQ will have its supply boosted to 5(6).

b) If the first HQ has an incoming supply 3 or more and the second HQ has an incoming supply of less than 5, then the second HQ will have its supply boosted to 5(8).

24. HQs increase the minimum level of supply they distribute with each increment of Logistics tech, regardless of their incoming supply or their strength. Thus, a HQ with Level 5 in Logistics Tech will always distribute at least level 5 supply to other units, even at partial strength and with an incoming supply of zero.

Supply for Air Units

25. Air units can receive supply from urban resources and ports just like land units. However, to receive supply from a HQ, an air unit must be attached to it. Air units which are not attached to a HQ that is in range are indicated by a red hatch beneath the unit. Air units which could receive a higher level of supply if attached to a different HQ in range are indicated by a purple hatch beneath the unit. Unattached air units, especially in low supply areas, can find themselves much less effective in combat than attached air units.

Supply for Naval Units

26. Naval supply is calculated differently from supply for land or air units. Naval units can only receive supply from friendly ports. Unlike land or air units, the amount of supply received by naval units does not depend on the strength of the port - a naval unit will be resupplied to level 10 by ending its turn on any friendly port. Ports can project supply to naval units at sea for a supply range of 10, with the value of the supply received diminishing by 1 for each hex distance from the port. If naval units move out of range of a friendly port their supply levels will not drop (unlike land or air units). However, naval units will have their supply reduced by 1 point per turn if they move using naval cruise or they raid a convoy route. They will also lose 1 supply point per combat they engage in, whether in attack or defense. The exception to this rule is regular Amphibious Transports (but not Long-Range Transports) which will have their supply reduced by 1 point for each turn that they are at sea.

Supply for Amphibious Landings

27. All units (except HQs) making an Amphibious landing disembark at the current supply level +1 of their respective Transports. HQs disembark with an incoming supply level of 5 plus their current Amphibious Warfare tech level. After their first turn ashore, all units (except HQs and Special Forces) must find a local source of supply or their supply will drop to zero. If they are disembarked with a HQ, it can serve as a friendly supply source for up to 5 turns, at a diminishing rate of 2 supply points per turn. Special Forces also retain their own supply after disembarking, at a diminishing rate of at 2 supply points per turn.


< Message edited by mdsmall -- 12/14/2020 5:33:12 PM >

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 1:01:13 AM   
Elessar2


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Just reiterating my request that the HQ boost from the Logistics tech be mentioned in the in-game text on the investment screen.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 3:01:17 AM   
Tanaka


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

Just reiterating my request that the HQ boost from the Logistics tech be mentioned in the in-game text on the investment screen.


Agreed!

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 7:52:17 AM   
BPINisBACK


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What, what?
Explain that, please.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 9:36:29 AM   
The Land

 

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Great post mdsmall! Very clear.

Just one thing:

quote:


17. Occupied ports will have their port levels reduced by the same Occupational Efficiency factor that applies to Urban Resources in that country.


Is this the case? Overseas Ports seem to end up at Supply 5 even when captured. this suggests the only thing at play is not having a rail link to a capital (etc) - no additional penalty is applied for being occupied.


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 2:14:07 PM   
mdsmall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

Great post mdsmall! Very clear.

Just one thing:

quote:


17. Occupied ports will have their port levels reduced by the same Occupational Efficiency factor that applies to Urban Resources in that country.


Is this the case? Overseas Ports seem to end up at Supply 5 even when captured. this suggests the only thing at play is not having a rail link to a capital (etc) - no additional penalty is applied for being occupied.



Hi - glad you liked the post! It is the case - this is what I think explains what you are seeing. All regular ports have an underlying value of 10. Occupied ports have the Occupational Efficiency factor is applied first and then reduction in their maximum to 5 for not having a rail link to a friendly Major Capital etc. The same sequence applies to occupied overseas ports as to occupied ports on the mainland of Europe.

This is why if the Axis captures Leningrad and establishes a rail link from Berlin through Finland to Norway, the Norwegian ports on a rail line, like Oslo, rise to 8, while those Norwegian ports not on a rail line, like Kristiansand, remain at 5. The same thing would happen if the Axis occupies Egypt and the Middle East and then brings Turkey into the war on the Axis side. The occupied Egyptian ports on a rail line, like Alexandria, would rise to 8.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 3:15:43 PM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Hi - glad you liked the post! It is the case - this is what I think explains what you are seeing. All regular ports have an underlying value of 10. Occupied ports have the Occupational Efficiency factor is applied first and then reduction in their maximum to 5 for not having a rail link to a friendly Major Capital etc. The same sequence applies to occupied overseas ports as to occupied ports on the mainland of Europe.

This is why if the Axis captures Leningrad and establishes a rail link from Berlin through Finland to Norway, the Norwegian ports on a rail line, like Oslo, rise to 8, while those Norwegian ports not on a rail line, like Kristiansand, remain at 5. The same thing would happen if the Axis occupies Egypt and the Middle East and then brings Turkey into the war on the Axis side. The occupied Egyptian ports on a rail line, like Alexandria, would rise to 8.



OK, got it! That makes sense.

It might be worth expanding your point 1 on "why Supply matters" - something along the lines of:

Supply is crucial in sustaining your units' ability to fight. A unit's Combat Readiness affects how much damage it deals, and Readiness is determined by the lower of Strength and Supply.

This means that a unit with Supply 5 will gradually fall to 50% readiness and stay there - dealing half damage. At Supply 3, it will fall to 30% readiness. Further, units in low supply lose one Action Point, making them more difficult to handle - particularly in adverse terrain. Units in low Supply fare very badly against well-supplied units in combat.

If a unit is eliminated in low Supply, it costs full price to rebuild, not 50%.



< Message edited by The Land -- 12/8/2020 3:23:24 PM >


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 3:17:37 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Thanks, Hubert. Something to think about in a future patch is simply eliminating Industrial Centers and Primary Supply Centers in Minor Powers altogether, so that there is no need for a rule to cover them as special cases. In the War in Europe game, there are no Primary Supply Centers outside the Major Powers (Ottawa is a Minor Capital, not a Primary Supply Source). And as I noted above, the only two Industrial Centers in Minors that I could find are St. John's and Kalamata. I have a specific suggestion regarding St. John's which I will make in a separate thread. As for Kalamata, it seems an anomaly to me that it is an Industrial Center - I find it hard to imagine many circumstances when the controlling player would want to build a Greek unit there if it was cut off from Athens. It would be simpler just to make it a Secondary Supply Center. I have briefly looked at the WW1 game and World at War maps and could not find other examples of Industrial Centers or Primary Supply Centers in other Minors in those games, so this might be an easy tweak to make across all three games.


I see what you are saying here, at the same time though, my feeling is more of this is just the rule for Minors, rather than a special rule.

For example, by default, all Capitals are also considered in game/code terms the same as Primary supply centers when it comes to the supply rules, e.g. if you take a peak in the Editor, all Capitals (not the alternates) are also listed automatically in the Primary list. Yet Minor Capitals also max out at 5 when disconnected from a Major. Essentially, it is just the rule for Minors, they max out at 5 all around, e.g. Capital, Primary, Industrial, until connected to a Major etc.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 8:35:07 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Michael,

Forgot to add a response on adding screenshots. There is a built in tool in Windows called Snip that you can use to 'snip' out images on your screen, and then save them to your PC.

This site here allows you to create forum friendly links to your images after you upload them to the site.

https://imgbb.com/

Just be sure to select 'BBcode full linked' when selecting the type options.

The generated link can then be copied and embedded in your post and it should pop up the screenshot as needed after that.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 8:46:27 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Just wanted to add a quick thank you for your list as well, and to note that I've now amended my post #2 a little bit to reflect the recent patch as well as to put things into a more logical order.

Notable changes, HQ boosting now requires an HQ to have a supply value >= 3 (previously it was > 0), and to compensate we added in the new LOW SUPPLY boosting rule also noted above in my post #2.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/8/2020 10:36:06 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Hi Hubert - I am very glad to hear you found my list above useful. And thank you for pointing out the new LOW SUPPLY rule, released in the latest patch to the WW1 game. However the following aspect of it puzzles me (quoting from your revised post at the top of this thread):

"a) the HQ to be boosted must have a supply value < 3 and is now automatically increased to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 6."

If the HQ receiving the boost has its supply value increased to 5, would not its distribution supply value be 8 rather 6?

Michael

PS - I am still working on how to paste items from the Clipboard to this Forum. If/when I figure out how to do it on the machine I am using, I will past some screenshots showing the supply anomalies I explained above.


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/9/2020 1:52:24 AM   
OldCrowBalthazor


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Thanks for this list mdsmall! You really put a lot of work into it and enhanced what the Devs have done in a concise way.


quote:

Major Ports and regular Ports that do not have a connection by rail to one the above friendly Major supply sources have their maximum level reduced to 5. (This is the reason why ports in Scandinavia, on islands in the Mediterranean, in North Africa, the Middle East and Canada all start the game at level 5).



Taking Leningrad is all so important to boosting all though resources in Scandinavia. (At least those ones in the rail net that is.) This statement I was going to post earlier but I see you already covered that in a later post. Anyway, your summary is easy to understand and its appreciated.


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/9/2020 2:15:31 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall
Hi Hubert - I am very glad to hear you found my list above useful. And thank you for pointing out the new LOW SUPPLY rule, released in the latest patch to the WW1 game.


Oops, I had the releases mixed up and forgot that the War in Europe patch is soon to be released as well. Either way, what I updated post #2 will soon be reflected officially in War in Europe as well as it is for WWI and World at War.

quote:


However the following aspect of it puzzles me (quoting from your revised post at the top of this thread):

"a) the HQ to be boosted must have a supply value < 3 and is now automatically increased to a supply value of 5 which caps its distribution supply at 6."

If the HQ receiving the boost has its supply value increased to 5, would not its distribution supply value be 8 rather 6?


No and only because this is the new LOW SUPPLY boosting rule, e.g. when an HQ is boosted from another HQ that has a supply value < 3, then the distribution is capped at 6 instead of the usual 8.

The reason for this is that there was a consensus that in these low supply situations for HQs, boosting to 8 was too high, but at the same time we didn't want to change how boosting worked for any other situation, thus the new additional rule here where we could pretty much leave everything else as is.


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/9/2020 3:51:39 AM   
mdsmall

 

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Ok - I think I get it now. I have tried rewriting the relevant paragraph from my notes above, in order to capture this new provision for low supply and combine it in the same paragraph with the rules for the existing case (which I am calling "medium supply" ). Is this correct? If so, I will edit my post above to reflect this new rule.

----

21. In certain circumstances, two HQs can form a supply chain in which one HQ boosts the supply it receives from second HQ, as follows:

A) LOW SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 1 or 2, it will distribute a supply of 5 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 6 to other units in range.

B) MEDIUM SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 3 or 4, it will distribute a supply of 6 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 8 to other units in range.

Note that only two HQs can be linked in a chain in this way. Both HQs must have a strength of at least 3. Within the chain, the HQ with the lower command ranking is determined to be boosting supply to the higher ranked HQ. If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/9/2020 9:39:01 AM   
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Great work Michael!

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/9/2020 1:35:47 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Ok - I think I get it now. I have tried rewriting the relevant paragraph from my notes above, in order to capture this new provision for low supply and combine it in the same paragraph with the rules for the existing case (which I am calling "medium supply" ). Is this correct? If so, I will edit my post above to reflect this new rule.

----

21. In certain circumstances, two HQs can form a supply chain in which one HQ boosts the supply it receives from second HQ, as follows:

A) LOW SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 1 or 2, it will distribute a supply of 5 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 6 to other units in range.

B) MEDIUM SUPPLY: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 3 or 4, it will distribute a supply of 6 to a second HQ, which can then boost that supply to 8 to other units in range.

Note that only two HQs can be linked in a chain in this way. Both HQs must have a strength of at least 3. Within the chain, the HQ with the lower command ranking is determined to be boosting supply to the higher ranked HQ. If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.



Thanks for this but not quite.

For B), it still boosts the connected HQ to 5, not 6, with a distribution supply of 8. I would probably reword them to something like this as well to remain consistent with the difference between 'supply' and 'distribution supply' for HQs. I also included some corrections and other changes, feel free to amend further as you see fit, these are just suggestions.


A) HQ BOOSTING: If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply >= 3, it can boost the supply of a second low supply HQ from any value < 5 to 5, which can then distribute supply of 8 to other units in range.

B) LOW SUPPLY HQ BOOSTING (SPECIAL CASE): If the first HQ in the chain has an incoming supply of 1 or 2, it can boost the supply of a second low supply HQ from any value < 3 to 5, which can then distribute supply of 6 to other units in range.

The HQ with the lower command ranking is determined to be boosting supply to the higher ranked HQ. If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.



Note, I also removed the mention on strengths as this does not apply or factor into the boosting requirements/rules.


< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 12/9/2020 2:00:25 PM >


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/9/2020 10:51:15 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Hubert - Let me double check two more points with you arising from this latest revision to the HQ boosting new rules.

First, in both cases, can the second HQ in the chain have an incoming supply of 0 before it is raised to 5? My inference is no - otherwise the distance between the two HQs could be unlimited.

Second, in the low supply case, could the second HQ have an incoming supply of 4 or 5? I just tested this out using an updated version of the WW1 game and the supply chaining still worked. However, as expected, the second HQ had its supply capped at 5 which it boosted to 6. If this is correct, then you don't need the reference to the second HQ having an incoming supply "from any value <3". But (as per my first point), the second HQ does have to have an incoming supply value > 0.

Grateful if you could confirm or correct this.

Michael

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/10/2020 1:58:57 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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1) Yes, the second HQ can have 0 before it is boosted. The 'distance' determination on whether it qualifies for a boost is that needs to be within 'distribution supply' range of the first HQ. So no, the distance cannot be unlimited.

2) No it cannot, because if it is already at an incoming supply value > 3 then it already has 'distribution supply' >= 6, so there is no point in being 'boosted' by the first HQ when it comes to the LOW SUPPLY BOOST special case situation.

However, if the first HQ is not a low supply HQ, then naturally the LOW SUPPLY BOOST special case doesn't even apply in the first place, and the regular boosting rules could apply etc.

Hopefully this makes sense and helps,
Hubert

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/10/2020 3:27:06 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Hi Hubert - let me probe your answers a bit further to understand how this plays out on the board.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

1) Yes, the second HQ can have 0 before it is boosted. The 'distance' determination on whether it qualifies for a boost is that needs to be within 'distribution supply' range of the first HQ. So no, the distance cannot be unlimited.

2) No it cannot, because if it is already at an incoming supply value > 3 then it already has 'distribution supply' >= 6, so there is no point in being 'boosted' by the first HQ when it comes to the LOW SUPPLY BOOST special case situation.



1. As I understand it, supply range is determined by the number of action points required to move from the source of supply (in this case the first HQ) and the unit receiving supply (in this case the second HQ). Under what circumstances could a second HQ be at zero supply while still being in supply range of the first HQ in the chain?

2. Except that seems to be how the game engine presently works. I just tested this out by placing two HQs on a road. The first HQ had an incoming supply of 2 (from a friendly occupied town) so its supply distribution was 5, as per the new low supply rule. The second HQ was one hex away on the road, so it's incoming supply was 4. If the first HQ was not in a low supply situation, the second HQ should have had a supply level of 6 which it would distribute at 8. However, the second HQ had its supply level capped at 5 and its distribution level was 6. The same applied when I moved the second HQ two hexes away on the road. So, as far as I can see, a second HQ chained to a HQ that is in a low supply situation will have a supply level of 5 and a distribution supply of 6, no matter where it is located (provided it is in range of the first HQ). That's why I suggested in explaining the rule dropping the reference to the incoming supply value needing to be >3 for the low supply rule.

Michael

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/11/2020 1:49:27 AM   
Hubert Cater

 

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1) I think the mix up in understanding here is I'm guessing you believe HQs supply one another? e.g. prior to boosting? This is not the case, HQs only receive supply from towns, cities and so on. After that, the only way an HQ can increase their supply is if they are boosted by another HQ. This is essentially the whole reason for the HQ boosting model.

So if you think about what I've listed above as the prerequisites for boosting then this should all make sense, e.g. an HQ can be at 0 before being boosted, but if they qualify for a chain, then the first HQ boosts the second HQ.

2) I think this also relates to my explanation outlined in 1), e.g. both HQs are receiving supply from the town. The first HQ receives a supply value of 2. The second HQ as it is one hex over receives a supply value of 1. Both HQs qualify for a LOW BOOST supply situation, whereby HQ #1 will boost HQ #2. HQ #1 is correctly set to a supply distribution value of 5, whereas HQ #2, since it was boosted by HQ #1 is bumped to 5, with a distribution value of 6.


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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/11/2020 2:32:47 AM   
mdsmall

 

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Hi Hubert - I think you put your finger on it. I had been reading the rules to mean that the first HQ in a chain is the supply source for the second HQ. If the source of supply is the town (or port) that is supplying the first HQ in a chain, then everything else falls into place. It explains how a second HQ could have a supply of 0 (from the town) but still be within the supply range of the first HQ. And it explains what is happening when two adjacent low supply HQs in a chain are in fact drawing supply from the same town.

I take it this means that while HQs do supply other land units in range, but they do not in fact supply each other. (And since a HQ receiving 0 supply can raise its own supply to 3, they do not ever need to supply each other). Instead, what they can do is boost the supply that a second HQ in a chain can distribute to other units.

I will look at your patch notes at the top of this thread and in the latest update to the game and see how to convey that in a simple yet accurate way, so other players don't fall down this particular rabbit-hole after me! Thanks for your patience.

Cheers,

Michael

< Message edited by mdsmall -- 12/11/2020 2:34:41 AM >

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/11/2020 1:23:15 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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No worries at all, and yes, I believe you've got it now

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/11/2020 9:52:03 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Hi Hubert - so, based on the above discussion on the new "low supply boosting" rule, I have redrafted the relevant paragraphs from my "Notes on Supply" covering supply from HQs and HQ supply boosting. I have pasted my rewrite below. Grateful if you could double check this text to confirm hat it captures the letter and spirit of the rules correctly. If so, I will update my notes above and will repost them as a new thread on the WW1 Forum, so that new readers don't have to go to the end of this very long thread to find them.

-------

Supply from HQs

19. HQ units are also a source of supply. HQs take the supply they receive from their nearest supply source and then distribute it at a higher level to other units in their supply range. This supply boosting feature of HQs makes them especially valuable when your units are operating at or beyond the range of supply from friendly urban resources or ports.

20: You can see these two different supply values for an HQ if you click on it. The HQ's incoming supply level is listed first, followed in brackets by its supply distribution level. Thus, if a HQ unit has a supply of "5 (8)", its incoming supply is 5 and the supply it distributes is 8.

21. The maximum supply that a HQ distributes to other units depends on the strength of the HQ and its incoming supply. Full strength HQs distribute supply according to the following scale:

Incoming supply: 0 Distributed supply: 3
Incoming supply: 1 or 2 Distributed supply: 5
Incoming supply: 3 or 4 Distributed supply: 6
Incoming supply: 5 Distributed supply: 8
Incoming supply 6 up Distributed supply: 10

22. Under certain conditions, one HQ can boost the supply distributed by a second HQ that is within its supply range. Only two HQs can be linked this way to form a supply chain. Within a chain, the HQ with the lower command rating boosts the supply distributed by the higher rated HQ. (If you click on the HQ receiving a boost, the HQ providing the boost will be highlighted in yellow.) Supply boosting between two HQs applies:

a) If the first HQ has an incoming supply of 1 or 2 and the second HQ has an incoming supply of less than 3, then the second HQ will have its supply boosted to 5(6).

b) If the first HQ has an incoming supply 3 or more and the second HQ has an incoming supply of less than 5, then the second HQ will have its supply boosted to 6(8).

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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/13/2020 4:39:20 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Hi Michael!

This is fantastic

1) I would only suggest to change one line here:

This supply boosting feature of HQs makes them especially valuable...

to:

The supply distribution feature of HQs makes them especially valuable...

Only because we typically use 'boosting' to refer to one HQ boosting another HQ for the HQ chaining and this might help limit/prevent any confusion here if it remains consistent to only use that word for that particular case.


2) And the only correction I can see is for the very last line, which should read will have its supply boosted to 5(8), instead of 6(8).


Thanks again,
Hubert



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RE: Understanding Supply - 12/13/2020 8:55:04 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Hi Hubert - that's great. Many thanks for those two corrections. I have now updated my notes post above. I will re-postt hem onto the WW1 Forum. I think the only differences between that game and this one is a slight difference in supply for amphibious landings. If there are more differences, please do point them out to me.

Best regards,

Michael

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Post #: 59
RE: Understanding Supply - 12/14/2020 3:27:55 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Great stuff Michael, and I don't believe there are any differences for Amphibious Transports for WWI. However, I may have forgotten something here, what difference were you thinking there was? I can then double check the code and confirm.

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