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Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk

 
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Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/4/2020 10:35:16 AM   
EarlyDoors


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Hi Guys

I have a challenge for you, I'm going to describe a situation with screenshots and then ask for your opinion

So, I am Allies PBEM++
I am attacking Tobruk - here is the layout of Units

December 1942 - Attack Tobruk

I want to reduce supply so by using the US Strategic bombers in Crete and UK Strategic Bombers around Cairo plus Naval bombardment and blockade, this is the state of the resources at the end of the turn

Reduce those Resources to zero

There are 2 Italian HQs with the one distributing to Tobruk highlighted

HQs

So my question is simple

quote:

Next turn, what will be the supply level of the Italian Tanks at Tobruk?
Post #: 1
RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/4/2020 11:41:26 AM   
Marcinos1985

 

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I will take a guess, with some explanation.
Benghazi is at zero, as is port, so HQ there will generate 3 supply.
This 3 supply will be passed to 2nd HQ - bc there is a road nad Benghazi s Secondary supply center, someone pls correct me.
2nd HQ will be boosted, so 3+3 - it generates 6 supply.
This 6 supply is transfered via road to tobruk and tanks are at 6 supply. Correct?

If it is, then Italy is obviously producing ammo out of thin air, worthy skill in WW2.
Jokes aside, I understand your frustration, in one of my tournament games I was on the receving end and got pushed back to Egypt.

You are not asking for advice, but still I can't resist.
Only 'quick' solution I see is to bomb the 2nd HQ with everything you have. Your TAC is unimproved, so it probably will have hard time to hit, but STRB and carrier can do the work. Unless ITA has AA lvl 2 or something.
Slower solution is to sweep 8HP army and try to attack 2nd HQ, garrison shouldn't hold out more than a turn.
Lack of 2nd HQ near tobruk hurts you a lot unfortunately. Have you considered amphib landing on a hex west of Tobruk?



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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/4/2020 11:53:22 AM   
EarlyDoors


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Correct first time Marcinos1985

The tanks have supply 6

tanks supply 6

Ok, so I have been misunderstanding supply all the time - i thought that supply dropped by 1 for every hex away from the HQ - are you saying that all units along the road receive the same supply as the HQ?

I did not know this - does it matter whether it is metalled road or not?

edit:checked the manual #
§The supply benefit of resources decreases with distance by 1 per hex in clear terrain.
§The rate of decrease will be greater in non-clear terrain, as such terrain is an impediment to good supply. For example, placing units in large forests, mountains or marshes, unless they are close to a nearby supply source, will generally be a bad move.
§Roads negate the effect of terrain on supply, so keeping units on or near roads is recommended


Whats the betting I never read as far as point 3!

Ok, so for future play - I need to cut the roads!!!

< Message edited by EarlyDoors -- 10/4/2020 12:03:50 PM >

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/4/2020 12:38:43 PM   
EarlyDoors


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ok now i know that supply is passed intact from resources / hq along a road lets take a look at this scenario (from a different game but didn't have to be)

UK have captured Benghazi and its giving out supply 2

The HQ is taking that supply and now distributing 5

O-Connor distributes 5

And that is passed all the way along the road, right?

Wrong!
WDF one hex along the road receives 4

NZ corps 2 hexes away receives 3

And so on and so on...


Why are they not receiving 5?

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Post #: 4
RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/4/2020 9:38:40 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

§Roads negate the effect of terrain on supply, so keeping units on or near roads is recommended



I think you misunderstood. It really is saying roads negate the effect of "non-clear" terrain (or when terrain had an effect, other than distance), but not distance. Anything 1 hex down the road would still be 1 less supply, no matter what road.

Marcinos was correct with his answer, but wrong with his analysis. On the next turn, Benghazi would grow to 1, which give the HQ there to generate 5 supply, which means that HQ could boost any HQ that's within 4 supply distance to generate 8 supply. The 2nd HQ was only 3 supply distance away, that's why it is generating 8 supply, passing to the Tank in Tobruk that's 2 supply distance away, to give it 6 supply.

The new HQ boosting rule is a bit over-tuned. Now it's impossible to shut down enemy supply when he has 2 HQs close enough to each other. Stat Bombers are still useful in reducing MPPs and training your HQ. Yes I found Strat Bombers are the best tool to train your Allied HQ. Give him 2 Strat Bombers to command, and he is gaining .40 level per turn. And you will get a 3 star HQ very quickly. 3 star HQs are extremely effective in combating the Elite German units.

Get your level 5 US Strat Bombers as early as you can. For one they look super cool! Send them out without escorts and they can shred those German level 3 interceptors to pieces, since you can double chit your H Bomb research and he can only single chit Figher. This way you generate double exp for your HQ. If your US HQ is commanding 3 Strat Bombers at the same time, you can generate 1.2 level exp for your HQ per turn! So every 2 and half turns you can build a brand new HQ into a 3 star one!

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 10/4/2020 9:52:50 PM >

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/4/2020 10:18:30 PM   
EarlyDoors


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Hi CPuncher - thx for the reply

Ok so my understanding was kinda correct apart from this HQ boosting thing

quote:

which means that HQ could boost any HQ that's within 4 supply distance to generate 8 supply. The 2nd HQ was only 3 supply distance away, that's why it is generating 8 supply, passing to the Tank in Tobruk that's 2 supply distance away, to give it 6 supply.

The new HQ boosting rule is a bit over-tuned.


Is this a new rule? To my mind the second HQ is taking in a 2 and so should be returning a 5

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4582548&mpage=1&key=supply�

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 3:42:26 AM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

Is this a new rule? To my mind the second HQ is taking in a 2 and so should be returning a 5

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4582548&mpage=1&key=supply�


I believe the boosted HQ has nothing to do with what supply it's actually receiving. It's either boosted, if he meets the requirements to be boosted, or he is not. If he is, he will distribute 8 no matter what. If he isn't, then he would have to use local supply. In this case, Tubrok is actually having 5 local supply due to the port. So if the second HQ was not boosted, he would have a local supply of 3 which means he can distribute 6. The tank in Tobruk would have a supply of 5 if he was not receiving anything from the HQ.

Your linked supply table is outdated. All I know for a strength 10 HQ, if the local supply is 0, he distributes 3, 1 or 2=>5, 3 or 4=>6, 5=>8, 6 and above=>10.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 9:15:09 AM   
EarlyDoors


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Thanks CPuncher

I have found the discussion in this this topic

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4766433&mpage=1&key=boost�

so a 1 strength resource can get boosted to 8 by a booster HQ

I think this absolutely stinks as it provides the same outcome as if all surrounding resources where at 5

It also has the same effect in the Russian Winter, whereby all booster HQs continually output 8

crazy decision to implement this change IMHO

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Post #: 8
RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 1:12:42 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

On the next turn, Benghazi would grow to 1, which give the HQ there to generate 5 supply, which means that HQ could boost any HQ that's within 4 supply distance to generate 8 supply.


Are you sure about that? I thought it would grow to 1 on next Allied turn, not Axis.
Omg, if it’s true I was wrong for so long...

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 4:19:56 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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For some background on this, there were some Multiplayer concerns where an Allied strategy in North Africa had developed with little to no effective counter for the Axis side. Allied players would bring Strategic Bombers to NA and reduce all Axis supply sources, and combined with the Malta effect, would result in a complete paralysis of any possible Axis offensives.

To counter this, somewhat, we amended the rule so that as long as the Axis side had a second HQ in good strength, the Axis side could maintain a supply value of 8 in most cases.

It just helped to balance things out and have it a lot less one sided, e.g. the Axis require at least 2 HQs, and they need to keep their HQs in good strength in order to be effective (some investment still required by the Axis), but on the flip side, the Allies can still use a supply reduction strategy and can still be effective if they reduce the supply sources as well as the boosted HQ.

There were also still some concerns for Axis supply as they get deeper into the USSR, and this helped address that as well.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 4:20:32 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

quote:

On the next turn, Benghazi would grow to 1, which give the HQ there to generate 5 supply, which means that HQ could boost any HQ that's within 4 supply distance to generate 8 supply.


Are you sure about that? I thought it would grow to 1 on next Allied turn, not Axis.
Omg, if it’s true I was wrong for so long...


I believe this is correct, Benghazi will grow to 1 on the next Axis turn.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 4:40:48 PM   
EarlyDoors


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Hi Hubert - thanks for the reply

I feel its gone too far in favour of the Axis who have far more HQs, whereas the Allies can barely afford to reposition the single UK strategic bomber, let alone purchase more.
As previously stated, there is now no difference (with a booster HQ) between resources outputting 1 or 5

Please consider either
~ grading HQ output more gradually rather than in steps
~ booster HQ output should be more dependent upon input

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 4:52:28 PM   
LoneRunner

 

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I can understand the need to play balance by reducing the impact of strategic bombers. However allowing a boosted HQ to distribute more supply than the booster HQ is illogical.

The rule should be changed such that the supply distributed by a boosted HQ can not exceed the supply distributed by the booster HQ.

Using that rule, an HQ would distribute 5 supply if it were boosted by an HQ sitting on a level 1 local supply.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 5:41:10 PM   
pjg100

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner


I can understand the need to play balance by reducing the impact of strategic bombers. However allowing a boosted HQ to distribute more supply than the booster HQ is illogical.

The rule should be changed such that the supply distributed by a boosted HQ can not exceed the supply distributed by the booster HQ.

Using that rule, an HQ would distribute 5 supply if it were boosted by an HQ sitting on a level 1 local supply.


I think this would kill Axis supply in NA and Russia.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 6:45:18 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

quote:

On the next turn, Benghazi would grow to 1, which give the HQ there to generate 5 supply, which means that HQ could boost any HQ that's within 4 supply distance to generate 8 supply.


Are you sure about that? I thought it would grow to 1 on next Allied turn, not Axis.
Omg, if it’s true I was wrong for so long...


I believe this is correct, Benghazi will grow to 1 on the next Axis turn.


Thanks Hubert for confirming this.

And to Marcinos and the rest of you multiplayer enthusiasts, this is what I know:

1. All your resources that is to grow will grow before your turn, after opponent turn. All his will grow before his turn, after yours. So if you just reduced something to 0 by bombing or ship attacking, it will be 1 when he plays.

2. All your resources that is to decrease due to opponent effort (2 ground units next to a city or 2 ships next to a port) will decrease before his turn, after your turn. Vice versa. So if you just put 2 something next to his resource, it won't reduce when he plays. It will only reduce when the next time you play. So the turn you moved 2 ships to his level 5 port won't stop his unit from being transported away using that port. You have to attack the port to 4 or lower.

3. The next turn supply prediction is for the next turn you play, not the coming turn when your opponent plays. So be very careful with this. Since the prediction is based on your resources grow on your turn, which won't happen on the coming turn that is his, your unit you thought that may receive 5 supply on the prediction may very well only has 3 actually, on his turn, since your resource hasn't grown yet (see point 1). I will say it again, be very careful with this. I only came to know this recently.

I can say for sure even many veteran players don't know all these.

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 10/5/2020 6:47:44 PM >

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 6:46:37 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

For some background on this, there were some Multiplayer concerns where an Allied strategy in North Africa had developed with little to no effective counter for the Axis side. Allied players would bring Strategic Bombers to NA and reduce all Axis supply sources, and combined with the Malta effect, would result in a complete paralysis of any possible Axis offensives.

To counter this, somewhat, we amended the rule so that as long as the Axis side had a second HQ in good strength, the Axis side could maintain a supply value of 8 in most cases.

It just helped to balance things out and have it a lot less one sided, e.g. the Axis require at least 2 HQs, and they need to keep their HQs in good strength in order to be effective (some investment still required by the Axis), but on the flip side, the Allies can still use a supply reduction strategy and can still be effective if they reduce the supply sources as well as the boosted HQ.

There were also still some concerns for Axis supply as they get deeper into the USSR, and this helped address that as well.


Thank you for reply. TBH, I didn't play before 1.05 (1.05 changed things, right?) and I may be a little biased. But if situation was that bad, now it got turned around 180 degrees. As screen posted by EarlyDoors shows, all Italian ports and cities are totally razed, no brick standing, but thanks to 2 HQ's they may generate 8 supply. 8 is a lot, you may reinforce freely and keep the morale up. But how on earth could you do it, if everything is burnt to ground? At the same time, it renders Malta effect useless.
We may of course argue, that Axis has to make a significant investment. Yes, of course. But they already have plenty of HQ's, in contrary to Allies, they just have to ship them and reinforce them. And when they do it, they will steamroll, unless Allies rush them beforehand.
In Russia it's the same case. In recent AAR of Fafnir vs Cpuncher there is situation, where USSR retreated deeply, and Germans just leapfrogged to them with good supply at once (was it 6?). It means that scorched earth settings are quite irrelevant, if Germany and minors bring 2 HQ's close to the front.
There are of course balance reasons, so it is not desirable to emulate logistical situation in USSR as IRL, but as stated several times, now the situation is skewed much in Axis favour. Really, 8 out of thin air is a lot.

By accident, there is similar thread in WiE forum
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4891174

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 6:50:50 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

3. The next turn supply prediction is for the next turn you play, not the coming turn when your opponent plays. So be very careful with this. Since the prediction is based on your resources grow on your turn, which won't happen on the coming turn that is his, your unit you thought that may receive 5 supply on the prediction may very well only has 3 actually, on his turn, since your resource hasn't grown yet on his turn. I will say it again, be very careful with this. I only came to know this recently.

Ups, was wrong with this one too
Is there a possibility to check what will be your supply at opponents turn?

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 7:00:16 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

Is there a possibility to check what will be your supply at opponents turn?


Not really. But most of the prediction will be valid. You just need to take an extra look and manually take out the effects of any resource growth.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 7:26:49 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors
As previously stated, there is now no difference (with a booster HQ) between resources outputting 1 or 5


This is true when HQs are linked together to provide boosting from one to the other, however, this is also dependent upon the strengths of the HQs as well. Reducing the strengths of the HQs will then also lower the supply they can provide, e.g. a boosted HQ at full strength can provide 8 supply, however if it is reduced to 5 strength then that is halved and subsequently drops to 4 supply and so on.

Again the goal is to provide a side with some mechanism to deal with low supply situations, e.g. the HQ boosting mechanism (which can be helpful in North Africa or deep into the USSR), but still give the opposing side a method to counter it at the same time.


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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 7:29:26 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner
I can understand the need to play balance by reducing the impact of strategic bombers. However allowing a boosted HQ to distribute more supply than the booster HQ is illogical.


We definitely hear this, but at the same time this is essentially the whole point of the HQ supply boosting mechanism, e.g. if it were to provide the same distribution supply then there really isn't many cases where a linked HQ would even be necessary as a mechanism as in most cases the distribution would be either very similar or identical to the parent HQ etc.


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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 8:23:06 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

Again the goal is to provide a side with some mechanism to deal with low supply situations, e.g. the HQ boosting mechanism (which can be helpful in North Africa or deep into the USSR), but still give the opposing side a method to counter it at the same time.


That's perfectly understandable and desirable from balance standpoint. The question is - should 2nd HQ distribute 8 supply, which is really a lot. Especially in situation like from EarlyDoors game.

At the same time, it is not that easy to counter. You can either try to bomb it, but enemy can bring fighters/AA guns and this gets sketchy quickly. You may also make somekind of paratroop drop, but Allies don't have them for a long time. What else, especially if HQ is surrounded by units? In the situation above, Allies would be on low supply, like 1-2, if they pushed deeper into desert.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 8:28:02 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985
Thank you for reply. TBH, I didn't play before 1.05 (1.05 changed things, right?) and I may be a little biased. But if situation was that bad, now it got turned around 180 degrees. As screen posted by EarlyDoors shows, all Italian ports and cities are totally razed, no brick standing, but thanks to 2 HQ's they may generate 8 supply. 8 is a lot, you may reinforce freely and keep the morale up. But how on earth could you do it, if everything is burnt to ground? At the same time, it renders Malta effect useless.


Just taking another quick look and the port at Tobruk is at strength 5, so this would actually provide 5 supply to the Italian tank at Tobruk and as a result the Italian HQ one hex north of Cyrenaica would also then be at 3 supply providing a distribution supply of 6. This is all without the bonus of HQ linking and boosting which then pushes it to 8.

In this case here the boosting just pushes it 2 supply points higher, at one time boosting would have pushed it to 10 and was reduced to 8 a little while ago as 10 did indeed feel too high.

As mentioned above, the Malta effect is still in play, especially if there is only one HQ being used, and with the mechanism to provide extra supply in low situations via a second HQ, the other side can still counter by also targeting the HQs to reduce overall supply. Here a combination of the Malta effect and targeting the HQs can still be effective overall.

Is it a bit out of thin air? Sure, and we can argue the placement of the extra HQ models some effort of bringing extra supply and stockpiling etc., but the alternatives which would be to eliminate or limit the boosting are not ideal either. Without supply boosting the Axis would literally have no chance in North Africa or deep into the USSR, and that is not what we would want either.

Is it perfect? Maybe not and we are listening and keeping things in mind as we try and get it as close to agreeable as possible for all situations and all possible exploits and pros and cons.



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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 8:41:58 PM   
Marcinos1985

 

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quote:

Just taking another quick look and the port at Tobruk is at strength 5, so this would actually provide 5 supply to the Italian tank at Tobruk

I think in one of the screens above there is US ship next to Tobruk, to block supply, that's probably why this port was left untouched.

I generally agree with you, I just think this mechanism is a little too generous in terms of supply generation. And in effect makes a RL logistical hellhole into quite plausible conditions.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 8:53:08 PM   
EarlyDoors


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Hi, yes the port is blockaded by Light Cruiser and Recon unit


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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 9:24:02 PM   
Cpuncher

 

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Could I ask Hubert to agree to a slight tuning? Like giving Boosted HQs to only distribute 7, or require it to receive 2 from the boosting HQ to be boosted? I think 7 is reasonably workable for the Axis in NA and Russia. Number of HQs in NA or Russia is never a problem for the Axis. Also reducing HQ strength is often very costly and only impacts the Axis turn, and not possible in Russia. In NA the Allies are not likely to have lots of Tac Bombers, so at most you can reduce a couple strength of his HQ, which he will reinforce to full 10 on his turn. Thus on your turn, when things matter more, Axis units are back to ample supply again even though you spent quite a lot of your bombers on previous turn. You likely have to reinforce your Bombers and Fighters before you can attack his HQ again. Then weather in NA kicks in often enough. So basically, in Russia no one would be able to reduce Axis HQ strength, while in NA, no one could really do it either, unless the Allies invest 3 Tac Bombers and 3 Fighter there, if the Axis has 1 or 2 German Fighters commanded by a German HQ there.

I think it's better to make the game so when the Afrika Korps go to NA it's 50-50 for either side, and if they don't, Allies would win NA easily. Right now if the Afrika Korps or similar German forces are committed I think it's at least 80% for them to win NA, between 2 equally good players.

Also I wonder what the odds are for Scorched Earth not happening when you capture a town. I think my last game the Axis captured way too many towns in Russia "intact". Also is there a difference whether battles happened in the town before the capture, vs it was undefended? I thought so but I don't know the exact difference in odds.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/5/2020 11:05:08 PM   
LoneRunner

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

quote:

ORIGINAL: LoneRunner
I can understand the need to play balance by reducing the impact of strategic bombers. However allowing a boosted HQ to distribute more supply than the booster HQ is illogical.


We definitely hear this, but at the same time this is essentially the whole point of the HQ supply boosting mechanism, e.g. if it were to provide the same distribution supply then there really isn't many cases where a linked HQ would even be necessary as a mechanism as in most cases the distribution would be either very similar or identical to the parent HQ etc.



Thank you for your answer Hubert. I can see your point.

I appreciate you explaining your position and being willing to work with gamers. I'm new to Slitherine and I've never seen this level of cooperation with a publisher. So refreshing. I'm impressed. Is this level of support typical for Slitherine games?

Lone

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/6/2020 10:22:19 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

Also I wonder what the odds are for Scorched Earth not happening when you capture a town. I think my last game the Axis captured way too many towns in Russia "intact". Also is there a difference whether battles happened in the town before the capture, vs it was undefended? I thought so but I don't know the exact difference in odds.


If scorched earth is turned on for a country, as it is for the USSR, then it should happen every time the resource is captured, and this is regardless of whether or not the resource was defended by a unit.

However, there is some randomization as to the actual effect which might be why the resource is sometimes in a fairly decent state when captured, and sometimes not.

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RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/6/2020 1:05:34 PM   
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Thanks Bill, for the answer.

What would be the range/odds of the randomization? So in USSR, for a level 10 city captured with a 60% (or is it 80%?) scorched earth, is there still a decent chance for it to be level 6, or even higher?

< Message edited by Cpuncher -- 10/6/2020 1:11:57 PM >

(in reply to BillRunacre)
Post #: 28
RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/6/2020 3:27:37 PM   
Hubert Cater

 

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: EarlyDoors

Hi, yes the port is blockaded by Light Cruiser and Recon unit





Ah yes of course, apologies for missing that.



_____________________________


(in reply to EarlyDoors)
Post #: 29
RE: Guess the Supply level of the Italian Tanks in Tobruk - 10/6/2020 4:35:47 PM   
LoneRunner

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 8/16/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cpuncher

Could I ask Hubert to agree to a slight tuning? Like giving Boosted HQs to only distribute 7, or require it to receive 2 from the boosting HQ to be boosted? I think 7 is reasonably workable for the Axis in NA and Russia. Number of HQs in NA or Russia is never a problem for the Axis. Also reducing HQ strength is often very costly and only impacts the Axis turn, and not possible in Russia. In NA the Allies are not likely to have lots of Tac Bombers, so at most you can reduce a couple strength of his HQ, which he will reinforce to full 10 on his turn. Thus on your turn, when things matter more, Axis units are back to ample supply again even though you spent quite a lot of your bombers on previous turn. You likely have to reinforce your Bombers and Fighters before you can attack his HQ again. Then weather in NA kicks in often enough. So basically, in Russia no one would be able to reduce Axis HQ strength, while in NA, no one could really do it either, unless the Allies invest 3 Tac Bombers and 3 Fighter there, if the Axis has 1 or 2 German Fighters commanded by a German HQ there.

I think it's better to make the game so when the Afrika Korps go to NA it's 50-50 for either side, and if they don't, Allies would win NA easily. Right now if the Afrika Korps or similar German forces are committed I think it's at least 80% for them to win NA, between 2 equally good players.



I think the original intent of boosted HQs was to extend supply range not to boost supply points. Extending the supply range by 8 hexes is a huge benefit. Adding extra supply points onto the boost has changed the game where super panzer units can kill units 10 hexes away from the German lines and still be in 5+ supply. Is that really where we want to go?

Historically, German armies were restricted by supply limitations in both Russia and North Africa. Perhaps more by supply problems than by the Russian and British forces. But, yes, sticking strictly to history could reduce the excitement and enjoyment of the game.

I can understand the need to play balance Germany's options in NA and Russia. The game is more fun if the Axis and Allies have lots of open options. I think Cpuncher's suggestion of boosting supply to 7 points rather than 8 points and requiring the parent HQ to have 2 supply in order to boost another HQ is a good compromise.
Lone

(in reply to Cpuncher)
Post #: 30
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