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[Logged] RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no guidance

 
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[Logged] RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missil... - 10/3/2020 11:22:00 AM   
guanotwozero

 

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In this case a flight of F/A-18Fs (Colt86) fires its last AMRAAM at a target, and immediately turns tail for home without providing pre-terminal guidance. I think we need a delayed RTB trigger, similar to how a fighter delays other manoeuvres until its missile goes terminal.

There's a before and after save. 1147.4

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< Message edited by Rory Noonan -- 10/5/2020 4:19:53 AM >
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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 1:22:15 PM   
thewood1

 

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I just changed the weapon state in ROEs and it seemed to work OK. I tried several settings, but the disengage immediately on no BVR weapons seems to be the worst one to have for what you are trying to do.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 1:59:36 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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OK, but on that AAW mission I'm using:

"Shotgun: All BVR or standoff have been expended. Allow easy targets of opportunity with WVR or strike weapons and air-to-air guns"

I would have thought that should do it - everything else seems to want to bring them home sooner. Can you suggest a better one?

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 2:15:35 PM   
thewood1

 

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I think its the definition of "easy" that is the issue. I suspect "easy" means within unused weapon range, otherwise "disengage immediately". Whether right or wrong, I have over 90% of my AAW patrols set on the preferred Winchester weapon state. I can't think of a scenario where that is not the case off the top of my head.

The only place I would use anything other than preferred on AAW missions is if I have a lot of fighters, a lot of ordinance, short ranges to base, and I know the potential threat out ranges my BVR ordinance by a lot. Where the main threats are bombers and strike units, I am keeping AAW on mission until complete Winchester. Especially true if long-ranged ASMs are in the mix.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 2:27:28 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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The main thing is that the AMRAAMs are off the rails but not yet expended, as they're still live and heading for targets. The only trouble is that lack of guidance.

I don't have a problem of fighters turning for home when the AMRAAMs are used up - I just want them to point at the enemy a little longer to finish the job. It feels like jobsworth pilots heading for home as soon as they're off the rails because union rules say so!

What would happen in real life? Of course they would finish the guidance. Then assuming there's nothing within easy sidewinder range, off home for supper. So it almost works right - it's just that final guidance that's needed.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 2:54:51 PM   
thewood1

 

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Not sure what would happen in real life. Not a pilot. This is just the way I play it.

btw, I also changed the missile logic to follow missile straight in and it keeps the nose on the target.

So just to clarify...I change the weapon state back to default. I changed BVR behavior to follow missile in. The already retreating Colt86 immediately turned back and followed the missiles. By the time those AMRAAMs were on target, the bombers were closer and both Colt86 units bore in and engaged with WVR weapons. I think they also went after them with guns. They wiped out all H-6s with help from the other group.

Sure seemed to work as expected from my perspective. Again, I rarely use anything but preferred for Weapon State for these very reasons. I do have to pay attention to BVR behavior sometimes. But that is on me and doing better planning and recognition of types of threats.

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 10/3/2020 3:09:31 PM >

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 3:16:45 PM   
thewood1

 

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btw, even though I'm not a pilot, I bet most real world fighter pilots are not told to return to base with missiles on the rails if a large bomber force is inbound.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 3:19:34 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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Thanks, will try that one. However I do think it's worth highlighting that one of the options seems to behave unrealistically, as I find it hard to believe that they'd leave a few missiles to chance because they get homesick all of a sudden.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 3:25:45 PM   
thewood1

 

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I don't think it behaves unrealistically at all. It was given unrealistic mission parameters based on what the commander wanted. Giving it the correct Weapon State setting was part of it. The other part is how aggressive you want them to be. That's the BVR setting. Changing those two settings in the mission not only worked before the missiles were fired, but over rode the post-firing logic. As would be expected.

You can niggle over what "easy" and "expended" mean, but those setting are in there for exactly those reasons. there are 20 possible Weapon State settings and 3-4 BVR settings. Not counting any other ROE or mission parameters, there are over a hundred possible combinations of mission parameters just around BVR actions in missions. So what if you disagree with what expended really means. There are probably a dozen different settings between those two parameters that work.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 4:07:38 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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Well, what I'm looking for is a setting to fire BVRs and guide them if necessary, and then turn for home if no easy WVR targets. I think that's a realistic ask. If it's not that setting I feel there should be another one, but I can't see it. Yes I could micromanage as a human, but that kinda goes against the grain of CMO especially as the AI wouldn't mirror that.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 4:19:52 PM   
thewood1

 

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There is another setting. The BVR setting does that. If you are going to micro it, then just micro it. Don't micro it then think there's a bug when it does what you tell it to do. I didn't micro it. I changed two parameters in ROE that are there for just such an occasion. Set the mission to what you want it to, and set it properly. If it doesn't work, then go back at try it again.

If your not sure what works ask. Don't declare a bug and get flippant. I showed you how it should be done. Can the devs make it work differently? I am sure they can. But should they be spending time on something they already designed into the game and is shown to work with little effort? What I showed isn't even a workaround. Its part of the basic mission planning process. See my other thread.

And the AI EXACTLY mirrors that. When you design the scenario, set the missions to do what the designer thinks a commander would do. If it needs to be dynamic, events and lua are their for scenario designers.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 4:32:51 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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I'm still not convinced that's definitely WAD, but it might be. OK, I'm less convinced than when I first reported above, but it has an air of unrealism at the very least so I'd like it checked. If I'm missing something obvious, I'd welcome it being pointed out - hence my ask about a setting for "fire+guide BVR then head home", as distinct from "fire unguided BVR then head home". The latter seems to me a less realistic action IRL, irrespective of current game mechanics.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 5:52:01 PM   
thewood1

 

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My real push back is that there are already 20 variations in Weapon State ROE. Thats not counting no setting or anything loadout-specific. Now you want to add at least a few more. When you can use use any of those plus the setting a few slots down on the ROE menu to give at least a hundred other variations. One of which we know solves you issue. Or are going have all the crank options too? Which will now total to close to 35-40 variations in that one option. It starts to get a little unwieldy.

It adds one more level of complexity and in some ways starts to conflict with the BVR rules. It might sound simple to come into the forum when you encounter something you don't understand, but its the devs who have to deliver it. And its other players and their requests who also have to deal with resources being switched around. Its a lot easier to just work with what you have. Regardless of if its sounds "realistic" or not, the end result is what you want.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 6:13:33 PM   
ronmexico111


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Just my 2 cents...

If the BVR engagement is working as desired with BVR engagement behavior set to crank if possible but then for the last missile you must assume manual control or set the behavior to follow a missile straight in to the target or waste the missile then I call bug here. It quite simply should follow the desired behavior as before for the last missile, guide it in, and then head for home. Otherwise, every air defense fighter would simply have an extra missile on a rail which it would realistically never use properly, the "one to grow on" missile.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 6:38:31 PM   
thewood1

 

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All I'm saying is that there is a setting that fixes that. You can't have every possible variation in one menu.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 7:04:25 PM   
thewood1

 

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SO went through crank and drag and as soon as those were set, Colt86 turns back around until the missiles end flight. That is on default Weapon State. The Weapon State currently assigned to the mission is disengage immediately. Again, its a function of what does "disengage" and "immediately" mean. You are the commander setting mission parameters. If the order is disengage immediately, the unit will disengage and do it now. The order isn't "disengage when all of your ordinance in flight has completed its run...Its disengage immediately.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 7:38:49 PM   
ronmexico111


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

SO went through crank and drag and as soon as those were set, Colt86 turns back around until the missiles end flight. That is on default Weapon State. The Weapon State currently assigned to the mission is disengage immediately. Again, its a function of what does "disengage" and "immediately" mean. You are the commander setting mission parameters. If the order is disengage immediately, the unit will disengage and do it now. The order isn't "disengage when all of your ordinance in flight has completed its run...Its disengage immediately.


And that makes sense to you to waste a missile?

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 7:53:29 PM   
thewood1

 

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It makes sense to know your units and the impact of your orders. The missile wasting worries ahould have been considered when the mission was built. I used to play scenarios all the time where I, against better judgement, made units run away after launching SARH missiles. I'm sure my virtual pilots were happy not to sacrifice their lives for the sake of a missile. In this case, if I was concerned with wasting missiles, I would have used the preferred option. There is a defined preferred option. Its preferred for a reason. Because its the one you are going to use 90% of the time. A good rule of thumb in setting ROEs of any kind is that before moving off the preferred option, think about the implications.

btw, the missiles weren't wasted. There were 120s against H-6s and I have averaged 75% kills with the 120s even with the RTB. If these were Flankers, I would reconsider my orders to the patrols. And by orders, I mean ROE and mission parameters. Once I launch a mission, I very much avoid mucking around with individual control. I find the AI does a better job than I do in complex decision-making.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 8:17:25 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ronmexico111


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

...The order isn't "disengage when all of your ordinance in flight has completed its run...Its disengage immediately.


And that makes sense to you to waste a missile?

It's worse than that - in the included example the flight fires its last 4 missiles in quick succession (saves are after 3 & after 4), and turns tail while they're all still pre-terminal.

The weapon state doesn't say "disengage immediately" - it's the above-mentioned "Shotgun: All BVR or standoff have been expended. Allow easy targets of opportunity with WVR or strike weapons and air-to-air guns". Now the line cuts off so it's possible more text follows - that itself is a problem worth looking at.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 8:34:25 PM   
thewood1

 

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Then that is the issue. I have always assumed its "disengage immediately". I can't read over that far and its surrounded by commands that all say "disengage immediately". I will un-zoom my text and see what it says. But I know this much, its behaving exactly like the other 10 "disengage immediately" commands around it.

But a simple bit of investigative work shows that at worse, the text is cut off. And I guess someone who is a perfectionist might say that is the issue, but some common sense says that its at least meant to say that.

Whether 1 missile or 6, your command is causing the shooters to turn for home. There are other commands that can do what you want. Why have the devs spend time fixing something because its not used correctly? It seems blindingly obvious that "disengage immediately" means egress right now, regardless of what you are doing. It should be used when you think there might be a threat and the plane is more valuable than the enemy unit or the mission.

btw, if you add you new text to the command, imagine how ridiculously long those commands will become. You can see its already an issue. And I don't think the devs have an immediate solution using paragraphs as commands.

A reminder about declaring the missiles wasted. 3 out of 4 missiles hit enemy units regardless of data link guidance. H-6s are a sweet spot for 120s. If preservation of the aircraft over the mission of killing ASM-carrying bombers, then I think your original command might actually be appropriate.



< Message edited by thewood1 -- 10/3/2020 8:36:56 PM >

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 8:45:53 PM   
Battelman2

 

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I'm with guanotwozero here, heading home as soon as the missile is off the rail does not seem appropriate even for the Shotgun weapon state.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 9:03:44 PM   
thewood1

 

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It is if that's the order. There is another order to stop it from doing that. The wrong order was used.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 9:09:37 PM   
guanotwozero

 

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Well, I'm still not finding a suitable realistic combo. I appear to be faced with a choice of :

1) go home after the first encounter
2) go home immediately the last missile is off the rail
3) don't go home until explicitly told to do so

What do I need to do for 4) go home after last missile fired and guided?

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 9:12:57 PM   
Twistedpretzel

 

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Doctrine doesn't equal tactics, I think that is being confused.

If I want my aircraft to expend all of their BVR weapons on the enemy they should expend those weapons effectively using sound tactics. That includes illuminating the target and providing guidance via datalink until the weapon takes control of its own guidance with active radar homing. That is following doctrine and tactics. That is not micromanagement, and not unreasonable. I am part of the club that agrees this is flawed behavior with all three of the "Shotgun: All BVR or standoff weapons have been expended" doctrines. If there is no target of opportunity the same thing occurs. As soon as all BVR weapons are off the rails the pilot heads for home even if the weapon needs guidance via datalink prior to using its own sensors.

It isn't an extra doctrine, or doctrine description issue. It isn't a feature. Maybe it is an oversight, but I firmly believe the pilot should be capable of doing his job and guiding his weapons until it is no longer required before RTB with those specific shotgun doctrines.


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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 9:55:04 PM   
Battelman2

 

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Yeah I don't think the wrong order is being used. The shotgun state should allow guidance- otherwise why would they even fire the missile in the first place.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 9:57:55 PM   
thewood1

 

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Because they might be firing one at a time. Now you get into WRA. There is a setting that you can use to do this. Play the scenario through. Change the Weapon State and it Colt86 comes around guides.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 10:14:22 PM   
thewood1

 

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So went in and substituted the Hornet Fs for Cs with AIM-7Ps. Using exactly the same mission as Colt86. The 18s cranked until the missiles impacted because they are SARH. As I said earlier, the 120s are not requiring guidance from the original 18s. They had over 75% kill rate.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 10:20:23 PM   
Battelman2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

So went in and substituted the Hornet Fs for Cs with AIM-7Ps. Using exactly the same mission as Colt86. The 18s cranked until the missiles impacted because they are SARH. As I said earlier, the 120s are not requiring guidance from the original 18s. They had over 75% kill rate.


Just because the AIM-120s don't require pre-terminal guidance doesn't mean the Hornet F should immediately disengage. Guidance is a core part of BVR combat and should be treated as such by the weapon state unless otherwise specified- which it isn't.

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 10:39:01 PM   
thewood1

 

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Actually this is why you should play the posted scenario before chiming in. Colt86's co-patrol unit of Hornets is guiding them.

So Colt86 is unloading its BVRs, turning tracking over to its partner group, and following orders to bug out and "disengage immediately".

< Message edited by thewood1 -- 10/3/2020 10:40:21 PM >

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RE: RTB immediately after shooting last BVR missile, no... - 10/3/2020 10:46:52 PM   
Twistedpretzel

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

Actually this is why you should play the posted scenario before chiming in. Colt86's co-patrol unit of Hornets is guiding them.

So Colt86 is unloading its BVRs, turning tracking over to its partner group, and following orders to bug out and "disengage immediately".


The issue occurs in any scenario with that doctrine selected. There are plenty of scenarios and instances where the weapon won't or can't be guided by a different unit.

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