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Possible supply exploit in Russia?

 
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Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 9/27/2020 6:23:23 PM   
comrade

 

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I play my first game as Axis, took Leningrad & Moscow and noticed the only Key Resources left in Russia are now Kuybyshev (where capital has moved) and Sevastopol (which is Primary Supply Source). To my surprise Russia does not seem to have any Secondary Supply sources and Industrial Centers.

If this is not a bug, and Russia has just 2 Key Resources on the map, then it seems like it should be possible to cut off both of them and that should lead to dramatic consequences, such as:

Per 7.14, all resources in Russia will be considered cut off and have strength and supply values of 3.

Per 7.12, no resource in Russia will be able to regain their strength once damaged via besieging or strat bombing (can create a wasteland)

Per 7.12.3 and 7.12.4, they won't be able to build any new units (?!)

Am I missing something, or it really doesn't pay off to take Kuybyshev, as the capital will simply move to Perm and the last Key Resource will relocate.


I don't know what happend to Industrial Center in Stalingrad, but it isn't there. I know it is there in September 1939 when the campaign starts. Also Perm is labelled with a vague "Alternate Capital/Industrial" (what does that mean?) in the very beginning of the game, but that label is also gone now, it only says "Alternate Capital". In other words, does that really mean that Russia has just 2 Key Resource locations on the map after Moscow and Lenningrad fall?


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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 9/27/2020 7:29:55 PM   
mdsmall

 

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I am in the middle of a PBEM game as Axis and am in a similar situation. I have captured Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad and cut off Russian supply to their units south of Rostov by cutting the railroad the runs east of Stalingrad through Astrakhan to the Caucasus. My understanding is that any remaining Russian units in the cut-off region would have a maximum supply of 3 and that new Russian units can not be deployed there, since none of the resource hexes have a rail link back to their capital, now in Kuybyshev. However, my expectation is that they could still reinforce units in the cut-off region up to 6 strength points, consistent with their level 3 supply. It is not clear to me whether the rules in 7.21 on "unit production" apply to reinforcements as well as new units (I have been assuming they do not).

I have also been wondering what kind of supply my Russian opponent is still receiving from Sevastopol. I cut the rail line running north from Sevastopol some time ago, but it is unclear to me if he can still send supply east from Sevastopol by road over the Kerch Strait. Does the road on either side of the Strait cross the Strait? If so, can I block that supply route by placing a German unit on the town of Novorossiysk? I do not feel like expending the effort to capture the fortress of Sevastopol if I can simply cut it off from supplying Russian units beyond Crimea. What's the best tactical advice for this situation?

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 9/27/2020 9:16:35 PM   
comrade

 

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After reloading it appears that Stalingrad is Industrial Center, meaning my idea of a cutting off all of Russia by surrounding Kuybyshev and Sevastopol is not valid :)

I think they can trace supply via the Kerch strait from Sevastopol, but not 100% sure. You can load the game as allies and check how it works :)

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 9/28/2020 3:43:18 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Two key supply (rail) lines are Astrakhan to Grozny and Vologda to Murmansk (Belomorsk).

Cut Astrakhan - Grozny and you cut off supply for the Caucasus. SU can still transport troops in.

Cut Vologda - Murmanansk at Vologda and supply from Vologda - Murmansk is reduced. Existing SU troops effectiveness reduced & no placing troops (bad). So in SC3 IMO Vologda rail is more important than Moscow. There was once thought to change this some, not sure it happened.








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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/2/2020 2:15:50 AM   
mdsmall

 

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In my ongoing PBEM game as Axis, I followed your advice and advanced past Moscow and cut the rail line to northern Russia at Vologda. It certainly had the effect of preventing the Russians from sending reinforcements to Murmansk and I believe it reduced the supply from his towns as well - although since Murmansk and Petsamo (which the Russians had captured) are ports, both of those centres had supply levels of 5 rather than 3. (In my current move, I sent a German sub to block the entrance to the port in Murmansk, in order to push Russian supply there down to 3).

What I also expected is that by cutting the rail line from the northern port to the rest of Russia, the income from the Allied convoy to Murmansk would go to zero. Instead, reading the reports on Russian MPP income, it still seems that the MPPS from Allied convoy supplies are getting through. Even though cutting the rail line at Vologda also cuts the rail line to the alternative convoy destination of Archangel, it seems to have no effect on Russian convoy income. Is that correct - and if so, how come?



< Message edited by mdsmall -- 10/2/2020 2:16:29 AM >

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/2/2020 9:38:19 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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This is correct as it is rather complicated for the engine to be set to check that there are no Axis units interdicting the route from Murmansk to... well where is a good question.

For instance, if the checks were stopped too early e.g. at Belomorsk, then it doesn't really resolve the issue as the Axis could have taken everywhere south and east of Belomorsk, but if places further south and east are checked then it gets more tricky as there is more than one route from there, while equally importantly, there would need to be no Axis units along the route.

Essentially it would require a string of dummy scripts nearly as long as the Great Wall of China to implement, and one could also argue that supplies delivered at Murmansk could in the warmer months be shipped by the Soviets to Arkhangelsk.



< Message edited by BillRunacre -- 10/2/2020 9:40:02 AM >


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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/2/2020 10:55:58 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

In my ongoing PBEM game as Axis, I followed your advice and advanced past Moscow and cut the rail line to northern Russia at Vologda. It certainly had the effect of preventing the Russians from sending reinforcements to Murmansk and I believe it reduced the supply from his towns as well - although since Murmansk and Petsamo (which the Russians had captured) are ports, both of those centres had supply levels of 5 rather than 3. (In my current move, I sent a German sub to block the entrance to the port in Murmansk, in order to push Russian supply there down to 3).

What I also expected is that by cutting the rail line from the northern port to the rest of Russia, the income from the Allied convoy to Murmansk would go to zero. Instead, reading the reports on Russian MPP income, it still seems that the MPPS from Allied convoy supplies are getting through. Even though cutting the rail line at Vologda also cuts the rail line to the alternative convoy destination of Archangel, it seems to have no effect on Russian convoy income. Is that correct - and if so, how come?





The last time my Axis opponent took Vologda was prior to the new supply rules (1 1/2- 2 yrs ago ?). My experience was that all supply was reduced as mentioned and I was un able to place/fully reinforce troops, its virtually impossible to get troops there (Archangel etc) once supply is reduced. I recommended some changes at the time and again I'm not sure if any were made.

Bill knows best on convoys. Obviously when all the Northern cites and ports supply is greatly reduced SU MPP's per turn are also reduced.

Once you take Vologda its possible many Northern SU cities are vacant. At least with the greatly reduced SU supply and welcomed supply changes it should be fairly easy to move up along Lake Onega to Belomorsk then on to Murmansk/Archangel.

Basically once Vologda is captured by the Axis the SU Northern campaign supply flips from a significant SU advantage to a significant Axis advantage.

gl



< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 10/2/2020 10:57:32 AM >

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/2/2020 4:18:52 PM   
mdsmall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

This is correct as it is rather complicated for the engine to be set to check that there are no Axis units interdicting the route from Murmansk to... well where is a good question.

For instance, if the checks were stopped too early e.g. at Belomorsk, then it doesn't really resolve the issue as the Axis could have taken everywhere south and east of Belomorsk, but if places further south and east are checked then it gets more tricky as there is more than one route from there, while equally importantly, there would need to be no Axis units along the route.

Essentially it would require a string of dummy scripts nearly as long as the Great Wall of China to implement, and one could also argue that supplies delivered at Murmansk could in the warmer months be shipped by the Soviets to Arkhangelsk.




Bill - I have no idea how the engine scripts work, but could you not program it to check in just two places - Belomorsk and Vologda?

If the Soviets can trace an unbroken rail line north from Belomorsk to Murmansk, then that convoy route is open; and if the Axis cuts the rail line anywhere north of Belomorsk, then the convoy shifts to Arkangelsk (regardless of the season). If the Axis cuts the rail line south of Belomorsk and Belomorsk is still in Soviet hands, the Soviets can shift the resources from the Murmansk convoy further east along the rail line that runs from Belomorsk to Vologda, so the Murmansk convoy is unaffected. However, if the Axis cuts the rail line at Vologda, then both convoy routes are cut and the convoy ceases to function. Ideally, you would have to scripts also check to see if there was an open rail line south from Vologda to whatever city is the current Soviet capital - but if that requires a "Great Wall of China" of dummy scripts, then just checking for control of Vologda itself is a pretty good proxy for success by the Axis. It seems to me there should be some overall effects on the Allied convoy of cutting those rail lines and it provides an additional strategic incentive for the Axis to push into northern Russia once they have captured Moscow.

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/2/2020 4:24:38 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Bill - on a separate question related to this thread, in my current game as Axis I have also cut-off a Russian corps in Vyshniy Volochyk by cutting the rail line running both north and south of that town. By my reading of the rules, the Russian corps should now have a supply level of 3, since they are occupying an unconnected resource hex that is not a port. However, the game engine is showing their supply level as 5, even though those rail lines have been cut for many turns and there is no other supply source that I can see from where the Russian corps would be drawing supply. Can you help me figure out what is going on here?

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/2/2020 9:15:34 PM   
Sugar

 

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There are different forms of connections: a railroad connection and a land connection to the nations capital.
If there`s only a land connection, the supply is limited to 5, if there`s an additional railroad it`s 8, and if both connections don`t apply, the supply is limited to 3.

That`s the reason why after connecting the railroad from Finnland or Turkey to Berlin or Rome, the ressources start to increase production in Norway, Finnland and the Middle East (and Sweden if Axis).

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/2/2020 10:35:54 PM   
mdsmall

 

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That's true but supply diminishes overland if not connected by rail at 1 supply point per clear hex (more if passing through rough terrain). The nearest resource hex that is not cut off by rail from a Primary Supply source or Capital is 22 hexes away from Vyshniy Volochyk. So there must be some other factor at work (or there is a glitch in game engine calculations).

< Message edited by mdsmall -- 10/3/2020 1:02:29 AM >

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/4/2020 8:16:26 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

That's true but supply diminishes overland if not connected by rail at 1 supply point per clear hex (more if passing through rough terrain). The nearest resource hex that is not cut off by rail from a Primary Supply source or Capital is 22 hexes away from Vyshniy Volochyk. So there must be some other factor at work (or there is a glitch in game engine calculations).


Can you turn off Fog of War and post a screenshot?

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/4/2020 8:26:34 PM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall


quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

This is correct as it is rather complicated for the engine to be set to check that there are no Axis units interdicting the route from Murmansk to... well where is a good question.

For instance, if the checks were stopped too early e.g. at Belomorsk, then it doesn't really resolve the issue as the Axis could have taken everywhere south and east of Belomorsk, but if places further south and east are checked then it gets more tricky as there is more than one route from there, while equally importantly, there would need to be no Axis units along the route.

Essentially it would require a string of dummy scripts nearly as long as the Great Wall of China to implement, and one could also argue that supplies delivered at Murmansk could in the warmer months be shipped by the Soviets to Arkhangelsk.




Bill - I have no idea how the engine scripts work, but could you not program it to check in just two places - Belomorsk and Vologda?

If the Soviets can trace an unbroken rail line north from Belomorsk to Murmansk, then that convoy route is open; and if the Axis cuts the rail line anywhere north of Belomorsk, then the convoy shifts to Arkangelsk (regardless of the season). If the Axis cuts the rail line south of Belomorsk and Belomorsk is still in Soviet hands, the Soviets can shift the resources from the Murmansk convoy further east along the rail line that runs from Belomorsk to Vologda, so the Murmansk convoy is unaffected. However, if the Axis cuts the rail line at Vologda, then both convoy routes are cut and the convoy ceases to function. Ideally, you would have to scripts also check to see if there was an open rail line south from Vologda to whatever city is the current Soviet capital - but if that requires a "Great Wall of China" of dummy scripts, then just checking for control of Vologda itself is a pretty good proxy for success by the Axis. It seems to me there should be some overall effects on the Allied convoy of cutting those rail lines and it provides an additional strategic incentive for the Axis to push into northern Russia once they have captured Moscow.


Adding checks for who owns a resource is pretty easy and I have thought of adding more locations, and perhaps having the ownership of every resource checked between Murmansk and Belomorsk, plus Vologda is the best, as all would be required for that convoy route to work.

Now, this would just be checks for ownership of the resources, so if Axis units have crossed the railway line but not taken any of these resources then the convoy would still provide the USSR with MPPs (adding checks for this would create the mountain of scripts that I mentioned) but the situation would then be a lot more reasonable and realistic than at present.

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/4/2020 8:40:56 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Sure - can you tell how to do both steps? This is a PBEM game. We have stopped playing at this point, so my opponent won't have a problem with me turning off the Fog of War.

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/4/2020 8:41:50 PM   
mdsmall

 

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quote:

Adding checks for who owns a resource is pretty easy and I have thought of adding more locations, and perhaps having the ownership of every resource checked between Murmansk and Belomorsk, plus Vologda is the best, as all would be required for that convoy route to work.

Now, this would just be checks for ownership of the resources, so if Axis units have crossed the railway line but not taken any of these resources then the convoy would still provide the USSR with MPPs (adding checks for this would create the mountain of scripts that I mentioned) but the situation would then be a lot more reasonable and realistic than at present.


Bill - that sounds like a very reasonable solution. I hope you can add to the next patch to the game.

< Message edited by mdsmall -- 10/4/2020 8:44:42 PM >

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/4/2020 8:46:25 PM   
mdsmall

 

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duplicate post

< Message edited by mdsmall -- 10/4/2020 8:48:50 PM >

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/4/2020 8:47:14 PM   
mdsmall

 

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duplicate post

< Message edited by mdsmall -- 10/4/2020 8:49:19 PM >

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/4/2020 9:32:18 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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It would also make sense to allow the SU to place some (not all) units once Vologda is captured. The supplies would continue to flow in from Murmansk/Arch and there is a decent population for the army. Completely shutting off all placements isn't logical.






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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/5/2020 11:02:24 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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It should be said that the new supply rules have improved gameplay around these supply lines considerably. In the old supply rules players would just keep moving 0 supplied units to the supply lines with no attrition or effect on battle results. Zero supplied units could sit and block supply and fight for YEARS.

Serious wargamers welcome the new supply rules, they have significantly added to the realism and complexity of the game.







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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/5/2020 4:49:19 PM   
Sugar

 

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quote:

Serious wargamers welcome the new supply rules, they have significantly added to the realism and complexity of the game.


Even serious wargamers haven`t the time to always get into every aspect of this game; especially if he has to track down every single patch note without updates of the manual.

From my xp less than 10% of all players know the supply rules, including participants of the tourney. Could easily be they`re blaming their opponent of cheating without knowing what`s really going on while they`re getting beaten that hard.

quote:

Zero supplied units could sit and block supply and fight for YEARS.


No issue at all, they could still fall under the rule for cut-off-units.

Do us all a favour and publish a tutorial regarding all aspects of the supply rules including aircraft, scorched earth, ports, railroad connection, capital connection, industrial- and second-supply-centers, then we talk again.

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/5/2020 6:46:54 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sugar


Even serious wargamers haven`t the time to always get into every aspect of this game; especially if he has to track down every single patch note without updates of the manual.

...

Do us all a favour and publish a tutorial regarding all aspects of the supply rules including aircraft, scorched earth, ports, railroad connection, capital connection, industrial- and second-supply-centers, then we talk again.



I don't find the new supply rules that hard to understand. I certainly don't know every nuance but there is always the S button. There are some spots they could be tweeked IMO.

Given your exceptional knowledge of the game its probably more important to you to understand the exact workings of supply than me.

The new rules add considerably to the game for me, they prevent units pushing forward unrealistically irregardless of supply and limit large armies (airforce) in remote parts of the map.

Maybe they could please everyone and put the old version before supply changes (or new one without supply) in the community content so people could play that way if they prefer.

I'll go get started on my SC3 Supply rule youtube now.



< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 10/5/2020 6:50:00 PM >

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/5/2020 8:08:16 PM   
Sugar

 

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I agree the new supply rules are more refined and add to the subject, but the shere complexity is an issue as you can see in nearly every thread.

If you can manage to do the tutorial, I`m gonna add to your content if necessary.

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/6/2020 5:55:44 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Bill - I would like to help, but can you tell me how to take a screenshot and how to post it here? Also how can I turn off ithe Fog of War in a PBEM game?


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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/7/2020 9:15:25 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdsmall

Bill - I would like to help, but can you tell me how to take a screenshot and how to post it here? Also how can I turn off ithe Fog of War in a PBEM game?




Ah, you can't in a PBEM game, all you could do would be to ask your opponent.

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/7/2020 3:50:11 PM   
mdsmall

 

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Bill - that will not be a problem. What do you want me to ask him? I can see myself by having a German unit next to it that the Russian town that should have a supply level of 3 has a supply level of 5. Since much of my strategy was used on cutting off Russian supply by cutting rail lines to their capital, I would like to figure out what is going on. How can I send you the info you need to take a look?

Michael

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/8/2020 8:59:11 AM   
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I think we need to see why the unit at Vyshniy Volochyk has a supply level of 5 rather than 3, so a screenshot from his perspective might be best, at least based on the assumption that he might have something undisclosed by Fog of War, e.g. a HQ, that is raising the unit's supply level?

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/9/2020 9:12:10 AM   
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Alternatively if you can give me the challenge id then I can download the file from the server and take a look.


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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/10/2020 12:17:23 AM   
mdsmall

 

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That sounds much easier. The game is a 1939 Storm over Europe PBEM challenge between "mdsmall, DaDude". I hope that gives you the info you need to download it from the server and take a look.

Michael

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/13/2020 9:45:46 AM   
BillRunacre

 

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I've taken a look and the reason Vyshniy Volochyk is at strength 5 is that it isn't totally cut off from the rest of the USSR, whereas the pockets in the Caucasus are completely cut off therefore their urban resources have a maximum of 3 (ports default to 5 in such circumstances)

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RE: Possible supply exploit in Russia? - 10/13/2020 11:51:28 PM   
mdsmall

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BillRunacre

I've taken a look and the reason Vyshniy Volochyk is at strength 5 is that it isn't totally cut off from the rest of the USSR, whereas the pockets in the Caucasus are completely cut off therefore their urban resources have a maximum of 3 (ports default to 5 in such circumstances)


Bill - I asked my opponent playing the Allies and he confirms that all of the towns he controls in northern Russia, including Vyshniy Volochyk, currently have a supply level of 5. This puzzles me a great deal as I have cut the rail lines to northern Russia at Vologda (as recommended by Pvt Benjamin near the top of this thread), as well as the rail line that connects Vyshniy Volochyk to Novgorod and to Moscow. None of these towns can trace a rail connection or a road connection to a Capital, Industrial Center, or a Primary Supply Center. The nearest supply source is Perm, now the Capital, which is 45 hexes away from Vyshniy Volochyk (and further from towns further north). The Soviet side does not have HQs in place that are boosting supply to these towns.

Section 7.14 of the Manual says: "All resources that do not fall into one of the above connection categories [ie by rail or by road] are considered cutoff and will maximum strength value of 3". The manual does not state that a resource also has to be totally surrounded by enemy controlled hexes in order to be cut-off. So how is it that the supply level of these towns is still 5 and not 3?

Separately, my opponent confirms that he is not able to deploy new units around these cut-off towns, which would be consistent with the rules in Section 7.12.2 that state that to build new units at any urban resource, it must have a strength of 5.

I would post a screen shot from my opponent's screen to illustrate all this but the file is too large.

Grateful for you explanation of this supply puzzle.

Michael

< Message edited by mdsmall -- 10/15/2020 4:11:11 AM >

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