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OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/14/2020 7:39:23 PM   
warspite1


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This should be out in November - so I'm on my best behaviour in the hope that Father Christmas put this in my stocking.




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< Message edited by Admiral DadMan -- 9/14/2020 9:18:16 PM >


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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/14/2020 11:09:12 PM   
Moltrey


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Sounds like a most interesting read Warspite. Those boys had balls of steel, making a port attack at night. Reminds me of the Eben Emael initial glider assault by the Fallschirmjager by landing on the freakin' roof! Ballsy.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 1:18:44 AM   
spence

 

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Is this a computer game or a board game?

Be interesting to see how they handle the majority (but not all) of the Italian Navy switching sides in the middle of the game and how the fuel oil supply of the Italian Navy before it switches sides is simulated as well as what the "Italian Player" can do to affect that supply.

Could be really interesting if the mechanics work well.

< Message edited by spence -- 9/15/2020 1:20:45 AM >

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 1:23:21 AM   
rustysi


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Looks like its right up your alley.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 1:32:02 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Is this a computer game or a board game?

Be interesting to see how they handle the majority (but not all) of the Italian Navy switching sides in the middle of the game and how the fuel oil supply of the Italian Navy before it switches sides is simulated as well as what the "Italian Player" can do to affect that supply.

Could be really interesting if the mechanics work well.


That is interesting how that would work since it is a BOOK!

https://www.pen-and-sword.co.uk/Taranto-Hardback/p/18611

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 6:12:03 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

Sounds like a most interesting read Warspite. Those boys had balls of steel, making a port attack at night. Reminds me of the Eben Emael initial glider assault by the Fallschirmjager by landing on the freakin' roof! Ballsy.
warspite1

Indeed. I saw a Swordfish as it flew over our house a few years ago. The weather was pretty bad - no rain but heavy grey cloud and quite windy.

The Stringbag was moving around so much, she just looked so fragile. I think just getting into a Stringbag was pretty ballsy, but then flying off a carrier, at night, a couple of hundred miles from the target, knowing you are going to be greeted by AA and barrage balloons when you get there....


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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 7:38:14 AM   
JeffroK


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The Stringbags list of battle honours would rival any aircraft,
Attacks on the Bismark, Scharnhorst & Gniesenau.
Genoa,Taranto,Oran, Matapan
Attacks from Malta on Rommels convoys.
ASW attacks in the Atlantic & Mediterranean.


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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 8:22:30 AM   
Andrea G


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I have never read other books by David Hobbs, will surely buy this one and I hope it will be well researched and not too much one sided :-)
It's curious the title of "Taranto" for a book that covers the entire war up to 1945.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 8:26:18 AM   
Andrea G


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Is this a computer game or a board game?

Be interesting to see how they handle the majority (but not all) of the Italian Navy switching sides in the middle of the game and how the fuel oil supply of the Italian Navy before it switches sides is simulated as well as what the "Italian Player" can do to affect that supply.

Could be really interesting if the mechanics work well.


My first hope also was that it was a PC wargame; afaik there are no games on pc covering the air-vaval warfare in the med during WWII.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 1:00:30 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrea G

I have never read other books by David Hobbs, will surely buy this one and I hope it will be well researched and not too much one sided :-)
It's curious the title of "Taranto" for a book that covers the entire war up to 1945.

Looks like the theme is Taranto as the trigger event that affected how the rest of the war in the Med played out. The survival of Malta for example may have owed something to the crippling of the Italian fleet and the psychological impact on the Italian high command.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 2:11:43 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrea G

I have never read other books by David Hobbs, will surely buy this one and I hope it will be well researched and not too much one sided :-)
It's curious the title of "Taranto" for a book that covers the entire war up to 1945.

warspite1

I don't think you should worry too much on the one-sided front based on another of Hobbs' books I read . Here is a review I did for Amazon. So hopefully this new book will be just as objective.

The British Pacific Fleet (Hobbs)
The teacher becomes the student…..and has to learn fast...

5 out of 5 stars.

This very impressive book tells the story of the British Pacific Fleet (BPF) that fought alongside its American allies in the war against Japan during the last months of the Second World War.

The book is written in an easy to read style, is very well researched and contains a more than acceptable number of pictures, diagrams and appendices (although can you ever have enough of the latter?).

The title of this review refers to the fact that for 100 years the Royal Navy was the most powerful naval force in the world, capable of projecting its might across the globe in protection of the UK’s trade routes to the Empire outposts and elsewhere. But, as other countries caught up and then overtook the world’s first industrial power, the United Kingdom had to live within a new economic reality. Post World War one, the country could no longer afford the navy necessary to meet all the potential threats that would appear around the globe, and the Royal Navy that entered World War II – whilst still the largest – was stretched to the limit.

The navy fought and won its most important war – the defence of the home country and the defeat of the U-boats and the surface fleets of Germany and Italy - but in doing so had not been able to spare ships for the defence of its colonial outposts in the Far East or even the Dominions of Australia and New Zealand, from the Japanese. After the fall of Malaya, Singapore and Burma, the British retreated to India and it was left to the United States to confront the Japanese, halt their expansion and begin to push them back across the vast expanse of the Pacific Ocean. In doing so, between 1942 and 1945 they built a huge navy - centred on the aircraft carrier – and a supply and logistic arm to keep that navy fed, watered, fuelled and armed.

With the defeat of Germany and Italy in sight, the Royal Navy had to ensure (for a variety of reasons) that it could learn how to operate in similar fashion – albeit on a much smaller scale. For a country at war since 1939 and exhausted, it was no easy feat to put together a fleet and supporting arm that could operate with their US allies. Hobbs tells the story of how the ships were found for both the fleet and the support vessels - albeit on a shoestring.

Understandably the US were not interested in having the BPF in the Pacific if they were going to be a drain on their own resources, or if they could not operate their carrier force in the way the United States Navy (USN) could. Hobbs makes clear just what a massive effort it took to ensure that the BPF would be accepted by the Americans as equals.

What I like about this book is that it is very honest. Hobbs, ex-Royal Navy himself, is justifiably proud of this achievement, but he does not soft soap the situation. There was a very, very steep learning curve to go through, and one that would have been impossible without the assistance of the USN (both before and after the BPF reached the Pacific). In addition Hobbs brings out just how much the military and civilian population of Australia worked with the British to make the BPF possible.

Like Monty’s 8th Army, the BPF was truly a Commonwealth force and Hobbs brings this out too. He makes an interesting defence on the thinking behind the withdrawal of the Canadian cruiser HMCS Uganda. He brings out the contribution of Australians, Kiwis, Canadians and other nationalities that made up the BPF.

The final word goes to the Admirals; Fraser and Rawlings for the British and Nimitz, Halsey and Spruance for the Americans. Hobbs brings out the mutual respect and admiration that these individuals had for each other and how their grown up, professional attitudes worked to the good of all.

In summary then, this is a very interesting, balanced book that I would recommend as required reading for anyone interested in naval warfare.

< Message edited by warspite1 -- 9/15/2020 2:21:02 PM >


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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 3:24:39 PM   
pontiouspilot


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There is a "stringbag" at RAF Hendon museum. I was surprised at how large and frankly how sturdy she looked, considering it was a bi-plane. If I can find pic I will try to post.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 6:43:46 PM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

There is a "stringbag" at RAF Hendon museum. I was surprised at how large and frankly how sturdy she looked, considering it was a bi-plane. If I can find pic I will try to post.
warspite1

Well that's okay then. When we come back in another life at the start of WWII, you can volunteer for one of these and I'll find a nice Spitfire or something





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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 9:54:24 PM   
mind_messing

 

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If we're turning this into an Xmas book suggestion thread, I'll submit the following

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Century-Sea-Power-1894-1922/dp/0253352142
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-Century-Sea-Power-Washington/dp/0253353599/

Well worth the read for the consideration of some of the lesser known conflicts (especially in Europe) and diligently researched (tables upon tables for stats nerds).

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/15/2020 10:43:30 PM   
fcooke

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

Sounds like a most interesting read Warspite. Those boys had balls of steel, making a port attack at night. Reminds me of the Eben Emael initial glider assault by the Fallschirmjager by landing on the freakin' roof! Ballsy.
warspite1

Indeed. I saw a Swordfish as it flew over our house a few years ago. The weather was pretty bad - no rain but heavy grey cloud and quite windy.

The Stringbag was moving around so much, she just looked so fragile. I think just getting into a Stringbag was pretty ballsy, but then flying off a carrier, at night, a couple of hundred miles from the target, knowing you are going to be greeted by AA and barrage balloons when you get there....



Not sure I have ever seen one flying. Anyone know off the top of their heads how many other than this one can still get in the air?

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 12:03:23 AM   
RangerJoe


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There are a few. Wikipedia has the answer. They were surprisingly durable and outlived the usefulness of it replacements.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 12:35:45 AM   
fcooke

 

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Thanks RJ. I never understood those 'upgrades' Introducing a biplane in the 40s? With all the lend lease going on Avengers could have been a better solution.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 2:00:31 AM   
PaxMondo


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Well, just like the Val, Stuka, and Kate ... the Stringbean was a VERY stable platform. None of them were fast or anything else in particular, but they were stable and for an aircraft attempting to deliver a weapons package, that is a crucial element. The Helen was not stable and worse was a hangar queen, hence the Sally, also a stable platform, ran the entire war.

Kinda like what I always say about employees; the first criteria is showing up on time. It doesn't matter how smart an employee is, if they don't show up, you can't use them.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 3:25:01 AM   
Jorge_Stanbury


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Thanks RJ. I never understood those 'upgrades' Introducing a biplane in the 40s? With all the lend lease going on Avengers could have been a better solution.


Lend lease naval aircraft was beyond scarce early war, and the US was still using Devastators in early 42

Besides, biplanes were still adequate in the early years; specially against the Italians who also used biplanes extensively

Later on the war they were used in less dangerous roles, like ASW

< Message edited by Jorge_Stanbury -- 9/16/2020 3:31:22 AM >


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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 5:51:25 AM   
warspite1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

Thanks RJ. I never understood those 'upgrades' Introducing a biplane in the 40s? With all the lend lease going on Avengers could have been a better solution.


Lend lease naval aircraft was beyond scarce early war, and the US was still using Devastators in early 42

warspite1

Exactly, one only has to read the story of the Wildcats that were ordered by the British to understand that things weren't always as straightforward as they appear in the lend-lease dept.

But in terms of replacements, timing also needs to be factored in. The Swordfish first flew in 1934 and its replacement, the bi-plane Albacore, first flew in 1938 - before WWII. The Avenger didn't fly until 1941.

It is unfortunate for the Royal Navy that, although the United Kingdom was capable of building some absolutely superb aircraft, the replacement aircraft that should have equipped the Fleet Air Arm in the early war/mid-war, were generally duds (for a variety of reasons too numerous to mention here).




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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 2:29:09 PM   
fcooke

 

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The Devastators inventory took a big hit at Midway, but on paper stats a better plane than the Stringbag. There were some Avengers at Midway and by the summer of 42 all the US had upgraded to them. Also not sure why the Army didn't keep trying to use the B-26 (also used at Midway) as a torp bomber, though they mostly left the Pacific in favor of the B-25.

Avengers are BIG. Did not see until a couple of years ago. I know they fit on CVEs but maybe they could not fit on RN CVs (hanger limitations and early war no deck parking?) Don't know, just speculating.

And as far as I know no CV dive bombers ever made it to the RN. Might have been a capacity issue or doctrine issue. Don't know - anyone have insight on that?

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 3:29:41 PM   
RangerJoe


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The stringbag, the Tuna plane, and the barracuda could all dive bomb. Not to mention the Fulmar and other aircraft.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 5:13:16 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The stringbag, the Tuna plane, and the barracuda could all dive bomb. Not to mention the Fulmar and other aircraft.

Are you sure it was true dive bombing? Did they have dive brakes? If not, I would call it glide bombing - usually a much shallower angle of dive than the 70º angle true dive bombers could do.

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/16/2020 7:45:11 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

The stringbag, the Tuna plane, and the barracuda could all dive bomb. Not to mention the Fulmar and other aircraft.

Are you sure it was true dive bombing? Did they have dive brakes? If not, I would call it glide bombing - usually a much shallower angle of dive than the 70º angle true dive bombers could do.


The Barracuda, which looks like a salt water northern pike or muskie but only larger and forms schools:

quote:

. . . The wings were furnished with large Fairey-Youngman flaps which doubled as dive brakes . . .
.
.
.
As the only British naval aircraft in service stressed for dive bombing following the retirement of the Blackburn Skua[18] the Barracuda participated in Operation Tungsten, an attack on the German battleship Tirpitz while it was moored in Kåfjord, Alta, Norway.[1][6] On 3 April 1944 a total of 42 aircraft dispatched from British carriers HMS Victorious and Furious scored 14 direct hits on Tirpitz using a combination of 1,600 lb (730 kg) and 500 lb (230 kg) bombs for the loss of one bomber.[22][23] This attack damaged Tirpitz, killing 122 of her crew and injuring 316, as well as disabling the ship for over two months.[24] However, the slow speed of the Barracudas contributed to the failure of the subsequent Operation Mascot and Operation Goodwood attacks on Tirpitz during July and August of that year.
.
.
.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Barracuda

The Tuna plane:

quote:

The Fairey Albacore was a British single-engine carrier-borne biplane torpedo bomber built by Fairey Aviation between 1939 and 1943 for the Royal Navy Fleet Air Arm and used during the Second World War. It had a crew of three and was designed for spotting and reconnaissance as well as level, dive, and torpedo bombing.
.
.
.
The Albacore was designated TBR (torpedo/bomber/reconnaissance) and like the Swordfish, was capable of dive bombing:

The Albacore was designed for diving at speeds up to 215 knots (400 km/h) IAS with flaps either up or down, and it was certainly steady in a dive, recovery being easy and smooth...
— Brown
.
.
.
The Albacore remained less popular than the Swordfish, as it was less manoeuvrable, with the controls being too heavy for a pilot to take much evasive action after dropping a torpedo.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Albacore

The string bag, named after a shopping bag:

quote:

. . . By the end of the war, the Swordfish held the distinction of having caused the destruction of a greater tonnage of Axis shipping than any other Allied aircraft.[2] The Swordfish remained in front-line service until V-E Day, having outlived multiple aircraft that had been intended to replace it in service.
.
.
.
The Swordfish was also capable of operating as a dive-bomber. During 1939, Swordfish on board HMS Glorious participated in a series of dive-bombing trials, during which 439 practice bombs were dropped at dive angles of 60, 67 and 70 degrees, against the target ship HMS Centurion. Tests against a stationary target showed an average error of 49 yd (45 m) from a release height of 1,300 ft (400 m) and a dive angle of 70 degrees; tests against a manoeuvring target showed an average error of 44 yd (40 m) from a drop height of 1,800 ft (550 m) and a dive angle of 60 degrees.
.
.
.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairey_Swordfish

Think if they would have put more floats on Swordfish instead of just doing one for tests. Then, convert a ship to be an AV with torpedoes on hand. With a catapult system, it could even operate while under way. Think of surprising the IJN in 1941 or 1942 with those. It could have been used in the Malaya campaign, the DEI, and by the Australians around New Guinea and the Solomon Islands. That ship could also end the career of Axis merchant raiders. Not to mention the air gap in the Atlantic although some were launched and recovered by civilian ships.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 9/16/2020 7:47:21 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

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“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
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Post #: 24
RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/17/2020 12:32:49 AM   
BBfanboy


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Interesting info - thanks RJ!

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RE: OT: Christmas is coming, the goose is getting fat..... - 9/17/2020 2:23:14 AM   
RangerJoe


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You are welcome.

The Royal Canadian Air Force used the Swordfish in Normandy to destroy German minisubs. The RAAF used them around Antwerp.

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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