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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 8:10:27 PM   
Sardaukar


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From: Finland/Israel
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One basically have to decide at which altitude which plane is good vs. opponent.

This also have radical effect on Japanese player decisions, who can decide his air industry.



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(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 61
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/1/2020 12:54:43 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In the US, what are the best reasons to be a teacher?

June, July, and August!


I used to sometimes think about becoming a teacher just so I could hang out at the pool, earning extra money lifeguarding again, for the entire summer. Great job at a sleepy pool, allowing lots of time to read and nap in the sun.


I knew a teacher who could fly fish eggs around Alaska in the summer. He made more money doing that than teaching. He showed pictures as well, like looking down 120 feet and seeing Lake Trout. The twenty pounders were to small so they would put them back.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lokasenna)
Post #: 62
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/1/2020 1:52:29 PM   
Lowpe


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Joined: 2/25/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
but the facts are that in my game against Lowpe I used many different tactics




That game Obvert did excellently in the air war and the war overall. The early surprise activation of the Soviets destroyed Japanese pilot training, as I had to protect Honshu day and night.

Very early in that game the average front line Japanese fighter pilot was 50 or less in critical skills, and most times the squadron had a dedicated percentage set to training in addition to CAP.

There was nothing normal about that game, lol!

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 63
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/1/2020 2:01:41 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
but the facts are that in my game against Lowpe I used many different tactics




That game Obvert did excellently in the air war and the war overall. The early surprise activation of the Soviets destroyed Japanese pilot training, as I had to protect Honshu day and night.

Very early in that game the average front line Japanese fighter pilot was 50 or less in critical skills, and most times the squadron had a dedicated percentage set to training in addition to CAP.

There was nothing normal about that game, lol!


I guess that you could have called it the Twilight Zone of a game.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 10/1/2020 2:02:54 PM >


_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 64
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/2/2020 2:22:05 AM   
rustysi


Posts: 7372
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
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quote:

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
A6M3a Zero x 2
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 21
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 17

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 4 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Matsuyama , at 105,59

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
A6M3a Zero x 1
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 13
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 9

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 6 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 3 destroyed

No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 20000 feet *


Altitudes aside here, in these cases the air-frames of the Japanese planes are too light to be going up against those Allied opponents. Their durability is in the 22/23 range, except for the Nick, which has a built in disadvantage as a two engine fighter.

So up against later model Japanese aircraft the numbers could very well be different.

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It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 65
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/2/2020 3:49:11 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Altitudes aside here, in these cases the air-frames of the Japanese planes are too light to be going up against those Allied opponents. Their durability is in the 22/23 range, except for the Nick, which has a built in disadvantage as a two engine fighter.


Not only that but speed and weapons suck too in all these modells, except Nick who´s malus you noted already. The early 20mm of Zero has bad accuracy..the 2nd 20mm of IJN is a bit better but not much. But 4x20mm in eg. George negates that by volume of fire.


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 10/2/2020 3:50:12 PM >

(in reply to rustysi)
Post #: 66
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/2/2020 9:32:05 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe


quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert
but the facts are that in my game against Lowpe I used many different tactics




That game Obvert did excellently in the air war and the war overall. The early surprise activation of the Soviets destroyed Japanese pilot training, as I had to protect Honshu day and night.

Very early in that game the average front line Japanese fighter pilot was 50 or less in critical skills, and most times the squadron had a dedicated percentage set to training in addition to CAP.

There was nothing normal about that game, lol!


I suspected as much with pilots. I knew it took a toll just having the extreme levels of combat as well in the early days even before the Soviets were involved.

Looking back later though the IJN did very well early and it would have been a very different game, and a tough slog throughout if the Soviets hadn't been activated. Even their measely number of good fighters early are difficult to handle.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Lowpe)
Post #: 67
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/2/2020 9:35:43 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi
Altitudes aside here, in these cases the air-frames of the Japanese planes are too light to be going up against those Allied opponents. Their durability is in the 22/23 range, except for the Nick, which has a built in disadvantage as a two engine fighter.


Not only that but speed and weapons suck too in all these modells, except Nick who´s malus you noted already. The early 20mm of Zero has bad accuracy..the 2nd 20mm of IJN is a bit better but not much. But 4x20mm in eg. George negates that by volume of fire.



Guys, these are not examples of good use of low layered CAP to defeat the high Allied sweeps this thread is about. I only used them as a quick piece of evidence to show Mr C. Troy that tactics were varied in that game.

For good examples of days and days of low layered CAP against the Allied high sweeps look at my game with Canoerebel, especially in mid-44. He literally swept Northern Japan from Shikuka and surrounding bases every day for a year or so. Lots that to show how it works and I included relevant altitudes and tactics wehn they were important or something new was tried.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 68
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/4/2020 4:42:37 PM   
Corvulus

 

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Joined: 6/24/2017
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Obvert, read your experiments with altitude bands. It helped a lot.

In fact the programm simulates well. Diving from stratosphere to some 3000ft gives no advatage. A pilot will not see the opponent and dives blind. Decreasing altitude slowly can become deadly if an enemy fighter is overseen at higher altitude. Dogfighting a Zero at 10k is not a good idea (never turn into a Zero). But escorting bombers flying on high altitude from strato will give climbing CAP a hard time. I will see how that works in the game against PontiusPilot.

Another factor you verified is experience and skills of pilot. At the end of WWII new german fighter pilots died within 3 sorties, the old pilots like Galland, Hartmann etc. continued to raise their kills. So training pilots skills is essential in this game

(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 69
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/4/2020 4:47:58 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 17254
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Corvulus

Obvert, read your experiments with altitude bands. It helped a lot.

In fact the programm simulates well. Diving from stratosphere to some 3000ft gives no advatage. A pilot will not see the opponent and dives blind. Decreasing altitude slowly can become deadly if an enemy fighter is overseen at higher altitude. Dogfighting a Zero at 10k is not a good idea (never turn into a Zero). But escorting bombers flying on high altitude from strato will give climbing CAP a hard time. I will see how that works in the game against PontiusPilot.

Another factor you verified is experience and skills of pilot. At the end of WWII new german fighter pilots died within 3 sorties, the old pilots like Galland, Hartmann etc. continued to raise their kills. So training pilots skills is essential in this game

I think the advice was never to get into a turning battle with a Zero, but didn't the US discover from a recovered Zero that it had a problem with trying to turn in one direction - likely something to do with prop rotation and gyro effect. That would give US pilots the advantage of knowing which direction a Zero was likely to turn so they could be ready for a deflection shot when it did (assuming they had a wingman to work with).

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Corvulus)
Post #: 70
RE: Allied sweep whining - 10/4/2020 4:51:32 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 12523
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Corvulus

Obvert, read your experiments with altitude bands. It helped a lot.

In fact the programm simulates well. Diving from stratosphere to some 3000ft gives no advatage. A pilot will not see the opponent and dives blind. Decreasing altitude slowly can become deadly if an enemy fighter is overseen at higher altitude. Dogfighting a Zero at 10k is not a good idea (never turn into a Zero). But escorting bombers flying on high altitude from strato will give climbing CAP a hard time. I will see how that works in the game against PontiusPilot.

Another factor you verified is experience and skills of pilot. At the end of WWII new german fighter pilots died within 3 sorties, the old pilots like Galland, Hartmann etc. continued to raise their kills. So training pilots skills is essential in this game

I think the advice was never to get into a turning battle with a Zero, but didn't the US discover from a recovered Zero that it had a problem with trying to turn in one direction - likely something to do with prop rotation and gyro effect. That would give US pilots the advantage of knowing which direction a Zero was likely to turn so they could be ready for a deflection shot when it did (assuming they had a wingman to work with).


I know that the ME-109 if it turned sharply to the left while low to the ground would actually go into the ground a little ways. That tended to ruin the pilots whole day.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 71
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