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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 4:03:45 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 1966
Joined: 9/24/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred


Good to know I am not a "crock" - we have no sweep/cap altitude house rule, the Allied player who took over a while ago requested it be gone. I agreed to it, as my reading suggested there are counter meassures on the IJ side. However I guess the P47 might change the picture a bit with 42k max alt.

Of course these so called strato sweeps are still quite unhistoric and the "dive bonus" a bit overdone in this game.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 31
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 4:55:26 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 13832
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred


Good to know I am not a "crock" - we have no sweep/cap altitude house rule, the Allied player who took over a while ago requested it be gone. I agreed to it, as my reading suggested there are counter meassures on the IJ side. However I guess the P47 might change the picture a bit with 42k max alt.

Of course these so called strato sweeps are still quite unhistoric and the "dive bonus" a bit overdone in this game.




sssshhhhhhhhh

_____________________________


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 32
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 4:58:15 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 13832
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred


lol, best laugh of the month. Wonder if that guy has taken over a Matrix games paycheck.


Hate to break it to you, but he's right. Try and think beyond the dive bonus and you'd be surprised what you'll learn about the air combat model.

Almost as if there's some nuance in its design



yeah and those that claim it the most send their fighters in at maximum altitude. Must have become a dementia forum in the last years as exactly those again don't even know what they are doing. Saying a, doing b. See the dozen combat reports in my AAR that I posted there of people claiming a and due to dementia doing b.

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Post #: 33
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:09:22 PM   
Alpha77

 

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@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.

And this is reality being higher than the enemy in A2A is ofc desireable. Just not routinely flying over 30k+ in real WW2 combat, there are too much downsides for plane+pilot at these heights. Another case are special planes built to fly that high eg. Mosquito, Spitfire recon or FW "Dora" / TA152, later P51 too(?)

See more info here:
"Focke-Wulf Ta 152 H-1 Extreme Speed At High Altitudes"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSdYtF2uR3U

Only a bit insight to flying very high:
"One astute viewer (Admiral) has pointed out that the pressurization was also very important for physiological reasons. That's true. There are two factors here. First it reduces the pressure change on the body in a rapid dive. In other words, your body only goes from 26,000 feet down to 5000 or whatever, which is a much smaller pressure change than 45,000 feet down to 5000. Second, at higher altitudes it's more difficult to breath because of the low pressure. This starts to be a problem at about 40,000 feet and by 49,000 breathing is nearly impossible. So an oxygen mask alone, won't do it. The Ta 152 is made to operate in the region, thus the pressurization is super important."


< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/25/2020 5:26:05 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 34
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:09:39 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9523
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From: Finland/Israel
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Well, layered CAP helps quite a bit.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 35
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:14:00 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Well, layered CAP helps quite a bit.


it does, never questioned that. But the dive still results in totally absurd results. And nothing negates that, not even nearly.

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Post #: 36
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:27:28 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9523
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From: Finland/Israel
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Well...Germans had that too with P-47s and P-51s...superior height is superior height.

Better fuel, better turbo/superchargers and more powerful engines.

to add:

Japanese could also use that earlier in war, Zeros could go higher against F4F etc., but not fight there well...but could dive at them. Trouble started when P-38 etc. arrived which could get as high or higher and fight there well too. Because of those facts before.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 9/25/2020 5:31:49 PM >


_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 37
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:32:31 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3256
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred


lol, best laugh of the month. Wonder if that guy has taken over a Matrix games paycheck.


Hate to break it to you, but he's right. Try and think beyond the dive bonus and you'd be surprised what you'll learn about the air combat model.

Almost as if there's some nuance in its design



yeah and those that claim it the most send their fighters in at maximum altitude. Must have become a dementia forum in the last years as exactly those again don't even know what they are doing. Saying a, doing b. See the dozen combat reports in my AAR that I posted there of people claiming a and due to dementia doing b.


Or because the vast majority of players in AE haven't quite figured out how to properly deploy a strong defensive CAP...?

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Well, layered CAP helps quite a bit.


it does, never questioned that. But the dive still results in totally absurd results. And nothing negates that, not even nearly.


That's not been my experience at all. The dive bonus gives an edge, but it's not an automatic "I win" button for air combat.

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 38
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:33:44 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3256
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.




Don't tell castor that there's more variables to the air combat model than aircraft altitude...

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 39
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:38:31 PM   
Alpha77

 

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https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/50763/what-is-a-typical-altitude-for-a-dogfight

"WWI dogfights would generally be between 5-15000 ft. Aircraft could patrol up to 20,000 ft (yes, without oxygen). The Camel had a service ceiling of 19000 ft, the SPAD XIII almost 22,000 ft.

In WWII, generally between 20-35000 ft over W Europe, under 20000 ft over Russia and in the far east. Bomber escorts in W Europe started out hanging with the bomber formations just above at perhaps 25-27000 ft, but later when they were sent to range on ahead, they would patrol at 30-35000. The FW190-A8 had a service ceiling of a bit over 37000 ft, and the Mustang just over 40, but at service ceiling there is almost no spare energy available for maneuvering so you couldn't actually fight at that altitude for any length of time.

In both WW's, once started the fighting aircraft would get lower and lower as they consumed energy, that would normally be available for climbing, in maneuvering for advantage, and in long fights they would end up near the ground.

An interesting aspect of high altitude combat in unpressurized airplanes was the risk of getting the bends from extended exposure to the low atmospheric pressure above 25000."

https://www.quora.com/At-what-altitude-did-fighters-in-WW2-typically-dogfight#:~:text=It%20depended%20what%20period%20in,In%20Europe%20%26%20N.&text=Fighting%20in%20the%20Pacific%20was,to%20~20%2C000-25%2C000%20ft.

"It depended what period in the war & what theatre of war. In Europe & N. Africa there was an initial escalation of combat height from the Battle of Britain onward to ~ mid 1942, with the heights frequently exceeding 30,000 ft & some interceptions reaching nearly 40,000 ft. That trend reversed in mid ’42 & combat heights fell sharply to the range of 15,000-25,000 ft. Apparently the combatants discovered that the war itself was lower down & the fighters had only been engaging other fighters up high, rather than trying to stop bombing & strike raids in the sea-level-20,000 ft region.

Fighting in the Pacific was at lower altitudes throughout most of the war in that area — typically ranging from near sea level, up to ~20,000-25,000 ft.

There were, of course, recon flights at great heights, but they seldom involved combat."

It is clear flying at max or up to 3-5k under max altitude with fighters was rare up to 1945 especially in the pacific or eastern fronts.
In game flying that high does not have enough downsides like in reality.If it was more realistic the dive issue would be not a biggie I guess. In particular, flying longer than some minutes at this altitude, while in game fighters can fly long distances at eg. 39k without much penality.



< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 9/25/2020 5:50:38 PM >

(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 40
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 5:56:57 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9523
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From: Finland/Israel
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Code change often suggested was to have big penalty in pilot fatigue when flying very high with oxygen and maybe additional ops losses.

Not gonna happen, was good idea, IMHO.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 41
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 6:01:58 PM   
Alpha77

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Code change often suggested was to have big penalty in pilot fatigue when flying very high with oxygen and maybe additional ops losses.

Not gonna happen, was good idea, IMHO.


There is a bit more fatigue but not nearly enough.. and we also should talk about plane "fatigue" plus more ops losses from these 2 factors. Especially at a return trip after combat....

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 42
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/25/2020 6:07:40 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9523
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Code change often suggested was to have big penalty in pilot fatigue when flying very high with oxygen and maybe additional ops losses.

Not gonna happen, was good idea, IMHO.


There is a bit more fatigue but not nearly enough.. and we also should talk about plane "fatigue" plus more ops losses from these 2 factors. Especially at a return trip after combat....


We have agreement with that.

OT: found that pure oxygen is great for hangovers...

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 9/25/2020 6:08:26 PM >


_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 43
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/26/2020 8:44:05 AM   
Corvulus

 

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Hallo, its me, the opponent of PontiusPilot.

First time Im writing in Matrix Forum, so apologize if I do something wrong.

Using P47D2 and D25 with P38 at high altitude Pontiuspilots Cap was annihilated. So we decided not to use highest altitude band anymore.

The average experience of my fighter squads is 70+, their air skill is 70+ too. Defence is on 65+. No noobs in the squads, air leaders are well chosen.
This took place in the beginning of `44 over Rangoon, but same happens in DEI or Rabaul.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 44
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/29/2020 11:16:07 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
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From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Corvulus

Hallo, its me, the opponent of PontiusPilot.

First time Im writing in Matrix Forum, so apologize if I do something wrong.

Using P47D2 and D25 with P38 at high altitude Pontiuspilots Cap was annihilated. So we decided not to use highest altitude band anymore.

The average experience of my fighter squads is 70+, their air skill is 70+ too. Defence is on 65+. No noobs in the squads, air leaders are well chosen.
This took place in the beginning of `44 over Rangoon, but same happens in DEI or Rabaul.


He just doesn't yet employ the most effective defense. The low layered CAP if used correctly will render your high altitude sweeps much more painful. You might get 2:1 but you'll lose a lot of pilots while he'll be flying defensively and retain many over his bases.

You don't need an HR to have a very competitive air war.

_____________________________

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(in reply to Corvulus)
Post #: 45
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/29/2020 11:28:54 AM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/50763/what-is-a-typical-altitude-for-a-dogfight

"WWI dogfights would generally be between 5-15000 ft. Aircraft could patrol up to 20,000 ft (yes, without oxygen). The Camel had a service ceiling of 19000 ft, the SPAD XIII almost 22,000 ft.

In WWII, generally between 20-35000 ft over W Europe, under 20000 ft over Russia and in the far east. Bomber escorts in W Europe started out hanging with the bomber formations just above at perhaps 25-27000 ft, but later when they were sent to range on ahead, they would patrol at 30-35000. The FW190-A8 had a service ceiling of a bit over 37000 ft, and the Mustang just over 40, but at service ceiling there is almost no spare energy available for maneuvering so you couldn't actually fight at that altitude for any length of time.

In both WW's, once started the fighting aircraft would get lower and lower as they consumed energy, that would normally be available for climbing, in maneuvering for advantage, and in long fights they would end up near the ground.

An interesting aspect of high altitude combat in unpressurized airplanes was the risk of getting the bends from extended exposure to the low atmospheric pressure above 25000."

https://www.quora.com/At-what-altitude-did-fighters-in-WW2-typically-dogfight#:~:text=It%20depended%20what%20period%20in,In%20Europe%20%26%20N.&text=Fighting%20in%20the%20Pacific%20was,to%20~20%2C000-25%2C000%20ft.

"It depended what period in the war & what theatre of war. In Europe & N. Africa there was an initial escalation of combat height from the Battle of Britain onward to ~ mid 1942, with the heights frequently exceeding 30,000 ft & some interceptions reaching nearly 40,000 ft. That trend reversed in mid ’42 & combat heights fell sharply to the range of 15,000-25,000 ft. Apparently the combatants discovered that the war itself was lower down & the fighters had only been engaging other fighters up high, rather than trying to stop bombing & strike raids in the sea-level-20,000 ft region.

Fighting in the Pacific was at lower altitudes throughout most of the war in that area — typically ranging from near sea level, up to ~20,000-25,000 ft.

There were, of course, recon flights at great heights, but they seldom involved combat."

It is clear flying at max or up to 3-5k under max altitude with fighters was rare up to 1945 especially in the pacific or eastern fronts.
In game flying that high does not have enough downsides like in reality.If it was more realistic the dive issue would be not a biggie I guess. In particular, flying longer than some minutes at this altitude, while in game fighters can fly long distances at eg. 39k without much penality.




Nothing in game says that planes fly all of the way to and from the target at combat altitude. The altitude we chose is combat related at the endpoint that's chosen.

Aside from issues of reality, in game there is a lot of nuance to the air combat model, and if used independent of limitations imposed by HRs it becomes an intriguing tactical cat and mouse game of layering, altitude and equipment adjustments, and a constant struggle for both players. The Allies generally come out slightly ahead, as they should historically, but the Japanese have a chance to do very well.

It's actually a detriment to fly all of my Allied sweeps at max altitude against my current opponent in mid-45. Because layered CAP is in play, I have to fly at multiple altitudes to sweep, and I have to use specific airframes at those different altitudes, and I have to watch for fatigue, and I have to check each turn to see what he's altered or surprised me with. Each defensive combination at different altitudes requires an adjustment on my part.

Most players don't want this kind of detail aded onto the rest of the complex tasks this game requires. If you do, then ditch the HRs and start experimenting with low layered CAP for the IJ and multiple airframe/altitude sweep/strikes with escort and LR CAP for the Allies.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 46
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/29/2020 3:43:59 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

obvert: ...equipment adjustments...


Don't do this with females in the room ...

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Post #: 47
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 1:19:37 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

obvert: ...equipment adjustments...


Don't do this with females in the room ...


Why not? Maybe they will help?

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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Post #: 48
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 2:32:18 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 13832
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.




Don't tell castor that there's more variables to the air combat model than aircraft altitude...


really? There are? What news I get, was too silly to figure that out after 10k+ PBEM turns. How on Earth I could ever play that game succesfully against guys that have been playing for a decade too? Must be all dumb players there.

Glad the yaysayers and the only guy on the forum that knows how to use google all know better.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/30/2020 2:34:01 PM >


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Post #: 49
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 2:59:48 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.




Don't tell castor that there's more variables to the air combat model than aircraft altitude...


really? There are? What news I get, was too silly to figure that out after 10k+ PBEM turns. How on Earth I could ever play that game succesfully against guys that have been playing for a decade too? Must be all dumb players there.

Glad the yaysayers and the only guy on the forum that knows how to use google all know better.


Being a teacher by profession, I happen to see people who are very experienced decide not to learn anything new about something they assume they understand on a daily basis.

If you were interested you might be asking more questions. If not ... well, good luck and have fun.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 50
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 3:34:54 PM   
RangerJoe


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In the US, what are the best reasons to be a teacher?

June, July, and August!

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to obvert)
Post #: 51
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 4:03:51 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 13832
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.




Don't tell castor that there's more variables to the air combat model than aircraft altitude...


really? There are? What news I get, was too silly to figure that out after 10k+ PBEM turns. How on Earth I could ever play that game succesfully against guys that have been playing for a decade too? Must be all dumb players there.

Glad the yaysayers and the only guy on the forum that knows how to use google all know better.


Being a teacher by profession, I happen to see people who are very experienced decide not to learn anything new about something they assume they understand on a daily basis.

If you were interested you might be asking more questions. If not ... well, good luck and have fun.


lol

you realize I copied the combat reports I've posted in my AAR out of your AAR vs Lowpe. Seriously? Must have happened all by accident that the sweeps went in above 30k as standard. Why doing this when you could also sweep at 15k or 20k?

Probably because you wouldn't get the dive against a sure CAP at 30k then.

Like I have said before, dementia forum.


< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/30/2020 4:04:07 PM >


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Post #: 52
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 4:07:57 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3256
Joined: 10/28/2013
From: Glasgow, Scotland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.




Don't tell castor that there's more variables to the air combat model than aircraft altitude...


really? There are? What news I get, was too silly to figure that out after 10k+ PBEM turns. How on Earth I could ever play that game succesfully against guys that have been playing for a decade too? Must be all dumb players there.

Glad the yaysayers and the only guy on the forum that knows how to use google all know better.


Try the manual (page 309)

" While the air-to-air code has been significantly recast, what the player will no doubt notice at
first is the introduction of maneuver values spread over five altitude bands. Successful players
will familiarize themselves with the strengths and weaknesses of their aircraft at various
altitudes compared to those of the opposition. Be warned however, that maneuver alone is far
from the end all of aerial combat: Aircraft speed, firepower, ability to withstand punishment,
pilot skill, radar and sheer numbers are of equal importance.
"

Of course, you wouldn't be so bold as to make the claim that 10k PBEM turns means you know the air code better than those that wrote the manual, right?

< Message edited by mind_messing -- 9/30/2020 4:08:26 PM >

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 53
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 4:18:30 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 13832
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.




Don't tell castor that there's more variables to the air combat model than aircraft altitude...


really? There are? What news I get, was too silly to figure that out after 10k+ PBEM turns. How on Earth I could ever play that game succesfully against guys that have been playing for a decade too? Must be all dumb players there.

Glad the yaysayers and the only guy on the forum that knows how to use google all know better.


Try the manual (page 309)

" While the air-to-air code has been significantly recast, what the player will no doubt notice at
first is the introduction of maneuver values spread over five altitude bands. Successful players
will familiarize themselves with the strengths and weaknesses of their aircraft at various
altitudes compared to those of the opposition. Be warned however, that maneuver alone is far
from the end all of aerial combat: Aircraft speed, firepower, ability to withstand punishment,
pilot skill, radar and sheer numbers are of equal importance.
"

Of course, you wouldn't be so bold as to make the claim that 10k PBEM turns means you know the air code better than those that wrote the manual, right?


LOL the manual? You have any other absurd suggestion?



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(in reply to mind_messing)
Post #: 54
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 4:28:50 PM   
Evoken

 

Posts: 474
Joined: 10/23/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: obvert


quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77

@ Castor Troy: I do not even know why this is questioned at all...perhaps those only playing the AI (not much sweeping) or ones with altitude rules. 2 roughly comparable planes+pilots mostly(!) the higher one will win, probably not a Oscar diving on a Corsair or P47 tho, speed/firepower too low. Even early on Oscars vs. the AVG or good RAF pilots suffer more then they deal out (even when higher I believe). At least in my case, but I may be just a bad player not getting the Oscar to work.




Don't tell castor that there's more variables to the air combat model than aircraft altitude...


really? There are? What news I get, was too silly to figure that out after 10k+ PBEM turns. How on Earth I could ever play that game succesfully against guys that have been playing for a decade too? Must be all dumb players there.

Glad the yaysayers and the only guy on the forum that knows how to use google all know better.


Being a teacher by profession, I happen to see people who are very experienced decide not to learn anything new about something they assume they understand on a daily basis.

If you were interested you might be asking more questions. If not ... well, good luck and have fun.


lol

you realize I copied the combat reports I've posted in my AAR out of your AAR vs Lowpe. Seriously? Must have happened all by accident that the sweeps went in above 30k as standard. Why doing this when you could also sweep at 15k or 20k?

Probably because you wouldn't get the dive against a sure CAP at 30k then.

Like I have said before, dementia forum.


Have you ever checked Lowpe's AAR vs Jocke ? I remember him dealing quite well against strato sweeping P-38's with layered low altitude CAP and of course numbers are also important as he had more fighters then Jocke's sweepers

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 55
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 7:00:28 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9523
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline
I *think* system works (often) that you can have low CAP and high CAP, sometimes with evem middle CAP.

E.g. you have planes good up to 20k ft, planes good up to 15k and good MVR rating planes maybe 10k. Enemy is coming in 25-30k to sweep.

Then it becomes bit of a "shell game". Opponent's planes in that case often hit low CAP and thus losing advantage to high/middle CAP coming down on them.

But as mentioned, multiple variety of things will get involved, speed and climb rate often negates MVR rate etc.

But layered CAP is explained elsewhere decently well. Problem is, if you don't have 2-3 fighter units in base to layer them, won't work with just one.

This is a game mechanics and can be tested by anyone against AI. Just that there are several other factors involved, so it's not simple.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 9/30/2020 7:01:34 PM >


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(in reply to Evoken)
Post #: 56
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 7:30:37 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

lol

you realize I copied the combat reports I've posted in my AAR out of your AAR vs Lowpe. Seriously? Must have happened all by accident that the sweeps went in above 30k as standard. Why doing this when you could also sweep at 15k or 20k?

Probably because you wouldn't get the dive against a sure CAP at 30k then.

Like I have said before, dementia forum.



I'm still not quite sure what you're saying exactly, but it sounds like you think in my AAR all sweeps went in high and the dive was the only factor that mattered?

Firstly, that AAR only went through early 43, and didn't even get to P-47s. The entire thread (OP) is predicated on complaining about Allied high sweeps by late war planes (usually P-47D onward).

We can talk early war if you'd like, but the facts are that in my game against Lowpe I used many different tactics, including sweeps at all kinds of different altitudes depending on what was available and what he was fielding, as well as numbers and situation (rail, no rail, island, size of airfield, whether I was on a turn to also bomb or just wearing down the defenses).

I opened that AAR and on literally the first post I found I noticed all sweeps here in April 43, just at the end of that game, were between 15-20k and were also very effective. Mainly because I'd worn down his pilot strength and numbers by that time, but also because those airframes did well in that era at those altitudes. His defenses were layered usually in three bands all under 9k.

----------------------------------------

Morning Air attack on Matsuyama , at 105,59

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 5
A6M3a Zero x 2
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 21
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 17

Allied aircraft
F4U-1 Corsair x 18

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 4 destroyed


Allied aircraft losses
F4U-1 Corsair: 1 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Matsuyama , at 105,59

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 5 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 6
A6M3a Zero x 1
Ki-43-IIa Oscar x 13
Ki-45 KAIa Nick x 9

Allied aircraft
P-38G Lightning x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
A6M3a Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-43-IIa Oscar: 6 destroyed
Ki-45 KAIa Nick: 3 destroyed


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 20000 feet *

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokuyama , at 105,58

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3 Zero x 8
Ki-46 KAI Dinah x 12

Allied aircraft
P-40K Warhawk x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3 Zero: 2 destroyed
Ki-46 KAI Dinah: 5 destroyed


No Allied losses

Aircraft Attacking:
18 x P-40K Warhawk sweeping at 15000 feet

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Fukuoka , at 103,57

Weather in hex: Clear sky

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 8 minutes

Japanese aircraft
J2M2 Jack x 2
Ki-44-IIa Tojo x 20

Allied aircraft
Spitfire Vc Trop x 10
Kittyhawk III x 4
P-38G Lightning x 8
P-39D Airacobra x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-44-IIa Tojo: 7 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-38G Lightning: 1 destroyed

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x P-38G Lightning sweeping at 20000 feet





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"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 57
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 7:43:46 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9233
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In the US, what are the best reasons to be a teacher?

June, July, and August!


I used to sometimes think about becoming a teacher just so I could hang out at the pool, earning extra money lifeguarding again, for the entire summer. Great job at a sleepy pool, allowing lots of time to read and nap in the sun.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 58
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 7:45:12 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

I *think* system works (often) that you can have low CAP and high CAP, sometimes with evem middle CAP.

E.g. you have planes good up to 20k ft, planes good up to 15k and good MVR rating planes maybe 10k. Enemy is coming in 25-30k to sweep.

Then it becomes bit of a "shell game". Opponent's planes in that case often hit low CAP and thus losing advantage to high/middle CAP coming down on them.

But as mentioned, multiple variety of things will get involved, speed and climb rate often negates MVR rate etc.

But layered CAP is explained elsewhere decently well. Problem is, if you don't have 2-3 fighter units in base to layer them, won't work with just one.

This is a game mechanics and can be tested by anyone against AI. Just that there are several other factors involved, so it's not simple.


Against Allied late war 42k sweeps nothing works as well as a low layered CAP with all layers under 10k. I've tested, and I've played, and I've tried all kinds of things, well into 46 in my game against Dan. You can check his AAR. He wasn't real happy that the usual things that work for the Allies simply didn't do it anymore. To his credit he changed things up now and then and tried some different things. Some of them worked pretty well.

For Allies in mid-to-late war on defensive CAP, with their better and more plentiful radar, faster airframes with more durability and better firepower (on average) it's usually to their advantage to layer CAP in the middle altitude ranges, from 10k-31k. It doesn't hurt to narrow that either, as the radar will usually get some planes up to max height for a dive on the incoming sweeps anyway. Bands can be "looser" with the Allies as well. You can separate by up to 5k (again with good radar in base). More than that and sometimes the best planes in higher bands won't get down to dive on sweepers before they've disengaged.

For early war things are COMPLETELY different. I should do some tests in this era and post results as I learned a lot in that last gae against Lowpe about how to deal with the advantage the Japanese have until the P-40k comes online. You basically have to use EVERY airframe with individual nuance and controls, and use many of them together. The A6M2-3 and the Oscar IIa-b are tough even before the Tojo comes.



_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 59
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/30/2020 7:50:15 PM   
obvert


Posts: 14050
Joined: 1/17/2011
From: PDX (and now) London, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

In the US, what are the best reasons to be a teacher?

June, July, and August!


Well, I teach at an American International School in London. The schedule is a bit different, but overall, it's about 3 1/2 months off per year in addition to the usual bank holidays.

The only better job I've had is teaching in university, with 3 days a week on campus, (with the other days for required research and publishing), and about 4 months off per year.

_____________________________

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another with no loss of enthusiasm." - Winston Churchill

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 60
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