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Allied sweep whining - 9/13/2020 6:52:14 PM   
pontiouspilot


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April '44, DBB 28....I'm in my 1st serious long-term game as Japan versus Herr Dirk. Recently he has been sweeping me to death with p-47s. I have suffered the ignominy of having groups of a few as 3 x P-47s attack up to 150 IJA planes and shoot down 10 without a loss of their own. Larger groups of P-47 are wiping out more than 100 planes per turn. I'm flying Franks, Georges, Tojos, and of course the useless '44 circa Oscars. I have 70+ experience with almost all groups. I have layered the CAP. They are defending a level 9 Rangoon with lotsa supply and support. The leaders are adequate.

The sweeps have been at max altitude so we scaled down to only 2nd highest band. This did bring losses down from 10-1 to 5-1 approx. Is this as good as it gets!! At this rate Japan is better off flying everything home to await the final battle.
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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/13/2020 7:04:02 PM   
geofflambert


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If you're going to defend go low, still layer but stay way down. Have Oscars at 5k. Force him to play at low altitude. Otherwise reconsider whether Rangoon needs to be defended. And get some Randys up. Sweep him back. What are you shipping in or out that you can't ship from Moulmein or elsewhere? If you start sweeping him watch him leave the skies empty. Don't play his game.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/13/2020 7:04:30 PM   
RangerJoe


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The problem is?

You don't state the situation with your pilots skills, morale, fatigue, nor the condition of your airplanes. You also don't state the altitude of your fighters. You also don't state the condition of your airfields. You don't state your CAP percentages. You don't state where your aircraft are based, whether or not they are solely based in Rangoon or not. You also don't state the range of your CAP either. You also don't state where the enemy is coming from (if known) and any counter measures to his bases.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/13/2020 8:28:21 PM   
geofflambert


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If you're defending a base so that you can have a base for fighters so they can defend the base, well ...

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/13/2020 8:37:01 PM   
pontiouspilot


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All based in Rangoon with 0-1 range. I stagger the elevations depending on the plane's elevation capabilities: 12000-max for the Georges ie. 31k +. I have used the Oscar iib at high altitude however rather than the low that Lizard suggests. All morale, fatigue were excellent...at least until the carnage started. I usually run 70-80 % cap depending on fatigue. I'm assuming the Bolts coming out of Akayab and Cox. They are well developed airfields. I hold upper Burma so they not coming from there.

I'm inclined to abandon air defense of the place and hope I can supply adequately from other ports. The sweeps are obviously simply in prep for waves of 4 engine which I don't even try to fly against.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/13/2020 9:09:50 PM   
RangerJoe


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Go very low, I have seen CAP aircraft diving to avoid sweeping fighters which did not engage them. Maybe lower your percentage CAP levels as well, especially if he is sending bombers.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/14/2020 2:00:10 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

I have used the Oscar iib at high altitude


Use them low, they'll suffer, but their high maneuverability may help a bit.

IIRC when there was a lotta talk about this stuff, altitudes of as low a 5-7-9 were discussed for the bands.

I know you've been a round a while, but I'll mention it anyway. Are you monitoring your A/C fatigue?

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/14/2020 2:53:36 AM   
RangerJoe


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If you are not going to try and shoot down the 4Es, then why fly CAP at all? Move in lots of AAA, move out your fighters. Then his sweeps will yield nothing. Then, after a turn or two, fly the fighters back but put them really low. The best climbers with the best maneuver ratings at the bottom. If he flies high sweeps, he may not even attack your fighters but if you see the bombers coming in, then your fighters can/will climb to intercept.

Also, check you air leaders. You don't necessarily want them too aggressive where they will try to fight his fighters but you want them to attack his bombers - even the 4Es.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/14/2020 3:47:09 AM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

All based in Rangoon with 0-1 range. I stagger the elevations depending on the plane's elevation capabilities: 12000-max for the Georges ie. 31k +. I have used the Oscar iib at high altitude however rather than the low that Lizard suggests. All morale, fatigue were excellent...at least until the carnage started. I usually run 70-80 % cap depending on fatigue. I'm assuming the Bolts coming out of Akayab and Cox. They are well developed airfields. I hold upper Burma so they not coming from there.

I'm inclined to abandon air defense of the place and hope I can supply adequately from other ports. The sweeps are obviously simply in prep for waves of 4 engine which I don't even try to fly against.


Sweeps are a good thing to do no matter what and if you keep going up to meet them he'll keep having a really good reason to sweep you. And don't underestimate those Oscar IIIas. They can sweep against anything if you keep them down. I don't care how high his cap is you still have the advantage, and you'll kill any planes that are scrambling to meet you.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/14/2020 3:50:27 AM   
geofflambert


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And you should be building lots of Randys as sweepers and they hold their own as CAP against P38s. Build those Dinah night fighters, they fly just fine during the day and that stupid cannon on top doesn't matter, they've got good speed.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/14/2020 3:54:57 AM   
geofflambert


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Another thing, if you're just doing CAP against sweeps (and not bombing raids) go with 100%. If you can't do well with that you won't do better with less.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/19/2020 8:48:50 AM   
obvert


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A bit more information on specifics of Low Layered CAP for the IJ.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4047529&mpage=1&key=low%2CCAP


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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/19/2020 1:39:25 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

April '44, DBB 28....I'm in my 1st serious long-term game as Japan versus Herr Dirk. Recently he has been sweeping me to death with p-47s. I have suffered the ignominy of having groups of a few as 3 x P-47s attack up to 150 IJA planes and shoot down 10 without a loss of their own. Larger groups of P-47 are wiping out more than 100 planes per turn. I'm flying Franks, Georges, Tojos, and of course the useless '44 circa Oscars. I have 70+ experience with almost all groups. I have layered the CAP. They are defending a level 9 Rangoon with lotsa supply and support. The leaders are adequate.

The sweeps have been at max altitude so we scaled down to only 2nd highest band. This did bring losses down from 10-1 to 5-1 approx. Is this as good as it gets!! At this rate Japan is better off flying everything home to await the final battle.


At what altitude?

They layered CAP approach really works wonders when you've squadrons spaced out at the 1k to 5k range. The Thuds will come in and get a good run with the dive bonus, but they really do not like it when they start getting swamped by IJ aircraft at that low an altitude.

A wider comment would be consider your air strategy in Burma as a whole. There's lots of rail lines, and as a result it's easy to move aircraft around. If you make Rangoon less critical and encourage Allied bomber strikes, that may shift the nature of the air war away from planned Allied strikes and open up scope to start hitting bombers.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/21/2020 3:44:47 PM   
pontiouspilot


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I never would have dreamed of flying that low! I was always 15K-max altitude. I will try that.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/21/2020 3:50:40 PM   
pontiouspilot


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As I told Rusty, I have set 90 % of my CAPs over 15000 ft. I will try lower.

As you have foretold I am already re-thinking what Rangoon gets used for. My opponent has hordes of 4 eng in India/Burma but he has been reluctant to send them against Rangoon until he got P-47s with some range. I think he was simply intimidated by the fact I had 300+ fighters there. Once he starts sending the 4 eng in he will close the place down in several days anyway.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/21/2020 5:36:49 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

I never would have dreamed of flying that low! I was always 15K-max altitude. I will try that.


The 15k to max is a bad habit - a CAP at 15k is unlikely to get down low enough to tangle with fast bombers, and still high enough to get shredded by high altitude sweeps.

Try stacking the 1k to 9k range. Close enough to climb to the effective altitude of bombers, low enough that strato-sweeps will get dogpiled by other aircraft arriving.


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

As I told Rusty, I have set 90 % of my CAPs over 15000 ft. I will try lower.



Yeah, try 1-5k first, but don't be afraid to mix it up. If he moves his Thuds down to a lower altitude, start putting CAP above his sweeps. It's a common misconception that the strato-sweep beats everything - it's a strong tactic, but it can be countered.

quote:


As you have foretold I am already re-thinking what Rangoon gets used for. My opponent has hordes of 4 eng in India/Burma but he has been reluctant to send them against Rangoon until he got P-47s with some range. I think he was simply intimidated by the fact I had 300+ fighters there. Once he starts sending the 4 eng in he will close the place down in several days anyway.


Best place to defend the air over Rangoon (and Burma in general) is from Northern Thailand. Base your planes in Thailand and move them into Burmese bases on the rail-lines and jump Allied strikes with overwhelming numbers, then fly back to Thailand for to rest.

Rail the damaged planes to Moulmein, and turn that base into a minor repair stop for the damaged planes.

You'll be amazed at the difference it makes just having that geographic buffer between your core airbases and the Allied frontline. From my experiences of the air war in Burma, trying to fight from within Burma just feels claustrophobic as Japan - no safe space to rest groups at all.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/21/2020 6:53:01 PM   
pontiouspilot


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I get the low altitude thing....safer to jump out!!

I have been using the northern bases. The rail nets offer an excellent escape after the 4 engs have closed things up.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/21/2020 7:22:46 PM   
Alamander

 

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As the Japanese, you should have a variety of planes. Many of your planes tend to be more maneuverable though less armed (and often slower) than their American counterparts. You depend upon maneuverability to survive dogfights. Pay close attention to the combat reports. What is the detection time on the raids? How long does it take for all fighters to arrive at the intercept point? To what altitude are your CAP fighters scrambling?

In general, you want to keep the battle, so much as possible, in good maneuver bands for your planes. This is not entirely possible, because as raids come in at higher altitudes, fighters will begin to climb, based on their climb rate, to meet the sweepers. However, the sweepers will also dive on your CAP fighters, reducing the altitude to which your fighters will tend to climb.

Low-layered CAP works because your planes do not reach as high an altitude when climbing to meet the sweepers and they must dive lower thus keeping the combats, in general, closer to your best maneuver bands. However, another major advantage of low-layered CAP is that your scrambling fighters do not have to climb as far to meet up with those on patrol. Your forces are less divided. For example, Tojos, with their excellent climb rate, scrambling from the Tarmac will end up linked up with Oscars that started airborne at a low level. Thus you create numbers. It is not simply a question of how many fighters are on CAP; it is a question of how many are in a specific altitude band at the time of the combat. Flying higher creates piecemeal CAP that is chopped up by placing too much altitude between patrolling craft and scrambling craft.

When layering your CAP, you want to take into account maneuverability based on altitude bands, speed, and climb rate. More maneuverable, tends be the lowest layer. Oscars work well for this the entire war if you have done a modest amount of accelerating the chain. They also do not have a great climb rate, so scrambling fighters with a better climb rate can often link up with Oscars on a low station as both climb to meet sweepers. A6M3 or A6M8s also work well in this role. Tojo IIcs can be used as well since on-station aircraft can link up as they climb with those patrolling a higher altitude. Franks, which are fast and maneuverable, can also be used, though it is nice to have them at a high band so that they can dive on sweepers that overshoot their targets or dive on lower-flying aircraft. You get the idea. Use what you have and your diversity of aircraft to create a layered defense that responds, so much as possible, in unison to allied attacks.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/22/2020 1:41:53 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

I never would have dreamed of flying that low! I was always 15K-max altitude. I will try that.


I'm sure I would chafe at those altitudes as well. As I only play the AI (as yet) I don't have to worry about sweeps, the AI doesn't do them.


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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 3:15:34 PM   
pontiouspilot


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Your comments taken in the context of the encl link and the other CAP thread which just popped up are fascinating. Thanks

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 3:19:42 PM   
pontiouspilot


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In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 3:21:20 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 4:13:55 PM   
geofflambert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred





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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 8:30:42 PM   
obvert


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


You just don't need it. When I began the game there were also slightly different mechanics, which over time were improved. I tried low CAP in an early game against the Allies late in game and still got creamed by the P-40N especially. Now I can win against the P-40N max 42k sweeps!

Through the testing thread and later in game I've messed around with a lot of permutations. The key is to stick to a simple layering with not more than 2k between the three bands, all under 10k. I use 9k-7k-5k still. It works. Also, using massed defense works LESS well with the layered CAP. I try to keep bases below 200 planes.

Also, you have to choose the right ariframes for each level and the right kind of pilots. It's a bit of management, but what else are you going to spend your time on in late game Japanese games?

High defense pilots (70+) with high air (70+) for low band in a maneuverable airframe. Oscars work for me. Or Sams. Sometimes A6M types.

Mid band is the hard one o figure out, but should be your second best interceptor. Usually a J2M5 or an A7M2 or a Ki-84a once the 'r' is available up top.

The top band should be your highest exp pilots (80+) with everything. Here I'd use N1K5 and/or Ki-84r ideally, with J7W1 or Ki-83 possible late as well.

There are counters. I am playing late war Allies now and I've figured out a few things here and there. It's really about surprise though and changing things that your opponent gets used to and lazy with.

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 9:29:10 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred


lol, best laugh of the month. Wonder if that guy has taken over a Matrix games paycheck.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 9/23/2020 9:30:17 PM >


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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 11:16:05 PM   
mind_messing

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred


lol, best laugh of the month. Wonder if that guy has taken over a Matrix games paycheck.


Hate to break it to you, but he's right. Try and think beyond the dive bonus and you'd be surprised what you'll learn about the air combat model.

Almost as if there's some nuance in its design

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/23/2020 11:52:54 PM   
Admiral DadMan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


None, like almost all HRs in AE, just a crock for poor players.

Alfred

No HRs in my PBeM games.

Ridin' dirty...


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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/24/2020 12:39:50 AM   
Alamander

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?



For the Japanese... yes. The allies flying sweeps at max altitude is a great thing for Japan. Their pilots accumulate large amounts of extra fatigue for flying at that altitude. Their sweeps are less effective, because they all come in at the same altitude, they are detected earlier because radar effectiveness improves, and low-flying CAP will simply not climb that high. No matter what, you will be hard-pressed to draw much of the CAP above 20K.

If your opponent wants to fly his fighters at their ceiling: more power to him.

I like to layer CAP at 5k, 7k, and 9k too, but with Tojos and Franks, I sometimes prefer 4,6, and 8. With early model Oscar IIs in the 1943 period, I like 4 layers sometimes at 3, 5, 7, and 9 with those 2nd model Oscars on the lowest level.

And double agree on Obvert's point about overdoing it with fighters on CAP. More is not always better.

< Message edited by Alamander -- 9/24/2020 12:44:22 AM >

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RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/24/2020 12:50:39 AM   
RADM.Yamaguchi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alamander

quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?



For the Japanese... yes. The allies flying sweeps at max altitude is a great thing for Japan. Their pilots accumulate large amounts of extra fatigue for flying at that altitude. Their sweeps are less effective, because they all come in at the same altitude, they are detected earlier because radar effectiveness improves, and low-flying CAP will simply not climb that high. No matter what, you will be hard-pressed to draw much of the CAP above 20K.

If your opponent wants to fly his fighters at their ceiling: more power to him.

I like to layer CAP at 5k, 7k, and 9k too, but with Tojos and Franks, I sometimes prefer 4,6, and 8. With early model Oscar IIs in the 1943 period, I like 4 layers sometimes at 3, 5, 7, and 9 with those 2nd model Oscars on the lowest level.

And double agree on Obvert's point about overdoing it with fighters on CAP. More is not always better.

Thank you for your nicely worded explanations and concrete examples. Again.

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Post #: 29
RE: Allied sweep whining - 9/24/2020 3:27:18 AM   
rustysi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pontiouspilot

In light of all of this discussion on CAPs what is the rationale for the sometimes used house rule re use of higher altitude bands? My opponent and I decided we better use that rule....is that a fool's errand?


You'll hear all kinds of opinions on HR's. I say this, pick whatever works easiest for you and your opponent, and go that way. Its your game after all.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

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