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RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 5:43:41 PM

ago1000

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quote:

And, about naval engagements occurring near coastlines, I can do the exact same video of this lonely transport troop near coastlines and with subs/surface fleets that are unable to spot it.

If a SURFACE fleet is spotted, it must increase chances to spot AND ATTACK it DURING the same turn by other fleets. Subs can dive so must be treated separately.

Once again, that depends on your recon level of the sea hex.(The recon level to UK of a coastal hex of Spain(while Neutral) is very low but near it's home, it's high) Try this test out with an Axis transport near the UK coast and see how long it will last when the UK fleet attacks it. I give it a turn.

Alvaro has done a gr8 job of providing us with information on the map to make informed strategic decisions, about combat. Two very important elements for naval combat are hex recon level (bottom left of the screen) and Naval ID status (Top Left when you click on the fleet you are attacking). These information tools help give an approximation of what your chances are of being successful and spotting and engaging the enemy fleet. I love that I don't have exact figures too. I think this too simulates what the Admirals must have faced in real life. A healthy anxiety.

Strategy wise:
In deep water, very low recon, small size fleets with multiple attacks work best.(Remember, the size of the attacking fleet doesn't matter)
Near the coast, high recon, send in a large fleet and watch the fireworks as a large naval battle occurs.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 5:59:22 PM >

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Post #: 31

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 5:49:48 PM

ago1000

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Okay but if you have two naval units at 5 hexes, only one will do a naval intercept.

Correct. p.82 Manual. The best fleet will be used first.

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Post #: 32

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 5:56:52 PM

ago1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
It is hopeless. And I can't even disband the fleets to make tanks.

I think that's a matter of preference and how you like to play. I've always looked at Naval strategies as taking a back seat to land battles with most games in the European Theater. But Alvaro's response to me regarding naval interception has opened my eyes to brand new way of looking at the navies in this game and how they model their real life counterparts. Early on I would have done the same, I'm glad now that I couldn't. For example, I see subs as having more than one purpose now, before I just left them on convoy lanes.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 5:57:17 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 6:25:24 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

I'm sorry but what does WAD mean? Without A Doubt?

WAD stands for Works As Designed, sorry I should have precised.

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Post #: 34

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 6:29:18 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

When the subs are surrounding the fleet and attacking each individually, the fleets you are attacking needs to be spotted and it's recon level (ie: Hex based) is very low (ie. 5% chance + modifiers...etc) before any combat occurs.

True, but I did spot them four times in the same turn. During the war, radio communications were exchanged to indicate convoy positions. It is like if the fleet is spotted, lost, spotted, lost, ... Maybe but I understand now what you are saying about the low recon level. Thanks.

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Post #: 35

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 7:37:16 PM

ago1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

When the subs are surrounding the fleet and attacking each individually, the fleets you are attacking needs to be spotted and it's recon level (ie: Hex based) is very low (ie. 5% chance + modifiers...etc) before any combat occurs.

True, but I did spot them four times in the same turn. During the war, radio communications were exchanged to indicate convoy positions. It is like if the fleet is spotted, lost, spotted, lost, ... Maybe but I understand now what you are saying about the low recon level. Thanks.

quote:

2

Exactly, spotted but your fleet might be too far (or enemy too fast) to attack might be a real life example. So you've increased your chances of finding and engaging the enemy fleet next time, say 15%. That is your radioing to other fleets in the area. But once again, there are no guarantees that a battle will happen because the 15% is better than 5% but still small, it's a big ocean. But if you up the recon enough times, your odds will keep getting better, sooner or later, combat will occur.

I'd like to add too that I'm assuming that Alvaro has programmed 0 as the lowest spot value with no possibility of negative values.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 8:37:24 PM >

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Post #: 36

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 7:49:34 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Exactly, spotted but your fleet might be too far (or enemy too fast) to attack might be a real life example. So you've increased your chances of finding and engaging the enemy fleet next time, say 15%. That is your radioing to other fleets in the area. But once again, there are no guarantees that a battle will happen because the 15% is better than 5% but still small, it's a big ocean. But if you up the recon enough times, your odds will keep getting better, sooner or later, combat will occur.

But there are only six hexes to increase the recon level. When the enemy fleet moves, are we back to square one?

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Post #: 37

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 8:05:16 PM

ago1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Exactly, spotted but your fleet might be too far (or enemy too fast) to attack might be a real life example. So you've increased your chances of finding and engaging the enemy fleet next time, say 15%. That is your radioing to other fleets in the area. But once again, there are no guarantees that a battle will happen because the 15% is better than 5% but still small, it's a big ocean. But if you up the recon enough times, your odds will keep getting better, sooner or later, combat will occur.

But there are only six hexes to increase the recon level. When the enemy fleet moves, are we back to square one?

Yes, back to square one and recon is based on the hex the fleet stopped at. There are more than 6 because CVs and subs can attack from a distance more than 1 hex. Remember too, I'm not giving you precise numbers just estimates based on the manual. I'd like to know that a CV grp has a 1 in 10 chance to engage a surface raider in a very low recon hex.

The Sinking of the Tirpitz: https://youtu.be/udivQuMKNKM (trying to imitate the Bismark)

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/13/2020 8:15:44 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 9:32:59 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Try this test out with an Axis transport near the UK coast and see how long it will last when the UK fleet attacks it. I give it a turn.

Yeah okay one turn but if you are using the whole Royal Navy. This is not the result I was expected.
I have sent one German division unescorted in Raider mode at 126,74 during turn 1 using Europe 1939 hotseat mode.

Reconnaissance level is high for UK. I have still some "Enemy fleet not found" message but less. Using single Cruiser groups, they may attack but they are not scoring any steps (0-0). BB are a little better but just barely.

At the end of the day, I am taking the whole navy out of Scapa Flow to be sure to sink this lonely transport in one turn.
This is not what I was expecting given a reconnaissance level of high. I was expecting more damage done to this "10 steps" fleet.

I have done the test five times. Maybe I had some bad odds but still.

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Post #: 39

RE: Naval Combat - 9/13/2020 10:34:29 PM

ago1000

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: ago1000

Try this test out with an Axis transport near the UK coast and see how long it will last when the UK fleet attacks it. I give it a turn.

Yeah okay one turn but if you are using the whole Royal Navy. This is not the result I was expected.
I have sent one German division unescorted in Raider mode at 126,74 during turn 1 using Europe 1939 hotseat mode.

Reconnaissance level is high for UK. I have still some "Enemy fleet not found" message but less. Using single Cruiser groups, they may attack but they are not scoring any steps (0-0). BB are a little better but just barely.

At the end of the day, I am taking the whole navy out of Scapa Flow to be sure to sink this lonely transport in one turn.
This is not what I was expecting given a reconnaissance level of high. I was expecting more damage done to this "10 steps" fleet.

I have done the test five times. Maybe I had some bad odds but still.

I know it's frustrating at times, but the recon is high so if you look at the table its not 100%.
A lone transport off the coast of UK, I'm guessing the first shot would have an 86% chance of being successful. For simplicity, let's say 80% chance that's 4 out of 5 chances of a hit (1 in 5 chance miss). Therefore if you make two attempts, the chances that at least one will hit would be about 96% chance of a hit (1- (1/5)^2). About 99% on the third try for at least on hit on your three attempts. I'd be going in with a couple of BBs to make sure when I do have combat to do a lot of damage. However, there are no guarantees, it is war.

So my strategy, near my coast is to attack with larger fleets of 4 or 5 groups to deal a lot of damage. However, that being said, I use 2 or 3 grps if the recon specifies that the enemy has a small force with no capital ships. Always look at the Naval ID recon. Also, remember you also have naval interception that occurs on your opponents turn, which also will have excellent interception and hit results. That was created specifically to protect an area with air support cover too. They work in conjunction with each other, similar to radar, the coastal watchers and RAF fighter command in the Battle of Britian.

Appendum:
Here is another way of looking at it
1 hit in a row: 86% chance
2 hits in a row: 64% chance
3 hits in a row 51% chance

So your not going to engage the enemy all the time.

Also, I keep forgetting to mention, Air is best against ships.

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 9/14/2020 10:50:42 AM >

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Post #: 40

RE: Naval Combat - 9/14/2020 7:26:29 PM

ncc1701e

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I think I am mainly surprised by the resilience of 10 steps unescorted transport troops against a Cruiser group or a BB group. An armor group is 30/30 so at a rate of 2 to 6 steps destroyed by turn, it is very hard to destroy even if it is spotted and attacked.

I may have misinterpreted what Alvaro said here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4884343

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

If you built 8 subs they would have other troubles.

I thought he thought to destroy the transport while at sea. But, in fact, he was thinking port supply interception.
That's my understanding now since intercepting transport with subs around Portugal is just impossible.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 41

RE: Naval Combat - 9/14/2020 10:08:19 PM

ago1000

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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I think I am mainly surprised by the resilience of 10 steps unescorted transport troops against a Cruiser group or a BB group. An armor group is 30/30 so at a rate of 2 to 6 steps destroyed by turn, it is very hard to destroy even if it is spotted and attacked.

I may have misinterpreted what Alvaro said here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=4884343

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

If you built 8 subs they would have other troubles.

I thought he thought to destroy the transport while at sea. But, in fact, he was thinking port supply interception.
That's my understanding now since intercepting transport with subs around Portugal is just impossible.

In the early days, one shot would sink a transport, it was all or nothing and peeps complained. As a result, the game developed, changes where made, old strategies need to be revisited and new strategies created.

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Post #: 42